refuge - unfinished by maisie

if you have the time n inclination now please try it again :)

I hope that is not how my comments read Maisie :) I really struggle with poetry and can't write a decent poem for toffee, but i do love to read it, and i really enjoyed this poem.

what do others think?

Juliet

Ok, comments in paranthes are mine.

Wretched, wretched man he took away my reason,
took away my heart. Left me broke and beaten,
at the front door of a refuge with a social worker,
counting the seconds till the doors opened.
.
Later inside the staff(fordshire) bull terriers tore: (Don't treat the reader as an idiot. Staff(fordshire)? this doesnt work in any way shape or form)
Devoured my story with relish, peppered the memory
Till I cried, small, and not now fragrant with the song (not now fragrant?) Clunky.)
the baby sang inside, not yet born wishes. (not yet born wishes? wouldn't wishes of the unborn work better?)
.
And here's a thing, the other women once discovered, (I can't make sense of this line at all)
wore no marks, had no sorry tale to tell, seemed without
pity as they relaxed, a harem, in this nunnery. They plotted:
the downfall of man. Enticed with talk of money
.
and tales of how a woman could get even. How I should
take aim, and become a massager at the local sex club,
take money for what once would have been given
freely as love. Hope rode: a knight on the horizon. (still want a man to rescue you then? I would assume that women in refuges are unlikely to be dreaming of fairy tale romance)
.
Inevitably I became alone, a solitary member
Of a reclusive order, the children made use of the nursery
While I saw the flowers blossom on the trees outside
And behind my eyes; anger stripped the trees. (good image, only let down by the cliched bloosom part)
.
Then one other woman bruised, came and went (other woman bruised?)
in a week, unable to take the formal chaos that
collapsed her life's meaning. Like me she had no need
For revenge, all she wanted was peace and someone
.
to love. (and again) But the anger still remained. I knew that.
But I had nothing. But I was her and not her. (Two buts - lazy. I would remove the second, it's not needed. I was her and/yet I was not her, has more impact perhaps.)
I had ingested new ethics and a desire for stabilty

Finally; ingested is not the most poetic of terms, and as Juliet says, neither is etrhics. You either want floaty poetry, angry poetry, experimental poetry or cliched poetry or a sharp prose piece. Bundling them all together in a poem just creates a bit of a clumsy mess. You have some good images as Juliet says, but a lot of this really is no good at all. If you are going to disrupt how people read words, not now fragrant, for example, it needs to be either clever and original, or smoothly and insidiously done, so the reader doesnt even feel it to be foreign on the tongue. Some of these - not yet born wishes, other woman bruised, simply don't work. Noble idea though. Worth continuing the experiment.Try taking the poem right back to the core images that you want. Anger strips the trees is great. Counting the seconds till the door opens, the huddle of women plotting, the way they season and consume her story; all of these present strong imagery, which is only let down by poor execution at times.

thanks juliet, i expect the fault in how i put things is mine i often am multitasking .. and just write the basics... which says a lot about how i am with others.. eek!! sorry.

and pizza thanks for your indepth destruction of my poem. which i really quite enjoyed, but, although i shall take on some of your remarks, no doubt, the poem remains mine, is not for publication... and i shall let it say what i want :) of course.

More power to you Maisie! Aren't we women ALWAYS multitasking! Particularly identified with the lines, 'All she wanted was peace and someone to love....
but the anger still remained...I was her and not her.' I guess that just about sums it up. Ty Maisie. SSS

oh um, i have just reposted a major review of this ... thing.
its kinda bigger now than i am.
and no includes those lines thanks .. sss :) hehehe

http://www.abctales.com/node/553270

i think he rewrite is much improved on the original, it retains in poignancy but is much clearer on meaning - really enjoyed watching the progress also.

Juliet

Of course... silly me. I should've realised that when you actually asked for thoughts, what you really meant was "tell me how great this is!"
Sad thing is, it isnt great. You may keep it as it is, of course, it is yours. It isnt however, a poem. One of the problems with abc these days, is the promotion of haf witted material as poetry and prose. People should write if they want to, this can only be a good thing... what should not happen is what is happening now. Social inclusion is all well and good, but when half arsed semi literates are lauded with praise from above, it is patronising at best, cruel at worst. In schools for the disabled (or whatever the PC term is now) they still have sports days, which are fantastic. What they dont do, is compare the runners in the relay to Roger Bannister. This happens on abc. You get a perfectly harmless mundance poem from some merry housewife which is siezed upon by other merry and not so merry housewives and flagged, given poem of the week... it is an utter nonsense really... but this is the result.

Way to go Tony.

Cue seven other merry housewives, pinnies flapping in outrage....

Pizzas ready has hit the nail right on the head, this is one of the main reasons why I have not bothered with abc much of late, way too much mediocre writing is being flagged to the heavens whilst other really rather good stuff goes by with just a few comments. There seems to be a small group of writers who continually flag every bloody piece of each others writing...really ladies it IS NOT necessary to flag someones piece simply because they commented on yours, that is NOT the way to improve your writing.

Oh and Maisie...if you can't take constructive criticism then DON'T post your work on a writing site, if you simply want people to say that they liked it write it in a notebook and only show it to family and friends!

I think you have a point in that if you post work on the site you are inviting comments, be that praise or criticism, but you generalisation ruins your argument, and reveals a disdain towards women that is offensive and bigoted, and consequently the rest of your post dilutes the valid point you initially made.

What is good poetry? Is there an objective measure? For me poetry is a subjective experience, and in Maisie’s poem I recognised the utter confusion of being a victim of domestic abuse, I like the fact it is not a 2 dimensional picture, but reveals the complexity of this issue.

Juliet

i feel the East/ West divide is rearing its ugly head again

new abcer's versus old abcer's - this forum is for discussing writing - if you think what is flagged is medicore, then use your experience and skills to help that writer progress after all, we all have to start somewhere. Camus i would love for you to criticise my work - i really want to improve, and i admire your writing ability.

Being able to see what is good writing and what isn't is also a skill then needs to be acquired - only by more experienced writers commenting, do we all learn what is good and what is not and why this is so.

Juliet

you are proving the point exactly. only praise is a nonsense. Inviting comments and then saying thanks but I'll keep it as it is, is exactly what abc is not all about.
I dont care if you think I'm sexist. The reason I say what I do, is because this happens all the time with a certain group of women here. Why would any experienced poet crit and offer opinions when the perpetrator of Vile Verse ignores it anyway in their quest for adulation and glory? Why waste the time?

part of becoming a better writer/ poet is learning how to take constructive critcism, and as i said pizza i can see why you may have been a little peeved, but Maisie did then rewrite the poem, based largely on your comments. You may not like her rewrite, but she did give it a go.

But talking about a certain group of women on here 1) sounds paranoid and 2) do you think there are no other clicky groups on here??? Of course women will be attracted to writing that relates to their own experiences and of course men who are into comic heroes/ sci-fi etc will be attracted to that type of writing - but that is why the site is so much fun, it is a diverse collection of people and tastes.

Juliet

ABC is fun?

"way too much mediocre writing is being flagged to the heavens whilst other really rather good stuff goes by with just a few comments"

well i can't compain, i'm getting more flags then ever.....wait.... :(

why does my computer post the same thing twice? every freakin' time!

Hoary old sexist that pizza is, I agree. Last week I was trying to persuade a friend to join abctales and was worried that if she saw the amount of uncritical praise for writing of dubious quality (including my own) she would assume it was just a micky mouse backslapping club - which I still don't believe it is.

Inbetween singing the site's praises, this is what I wrote:

"...recently it seems to have been taken over by a coven of gushing middleage women who preen and coo over the most abominable writing"

Praise is a good thing, and I certainly enjoy it when it comes my way, but I wish some people here would engage their critical faculties a bit more.

i am sure that Pizza.ready is not sexist or ageist, nor camus for that matter, but when gender and age are used to put down a group of peoples efforts then that comment is both sexist and ageist.

interesting use of word Maddan "coven", a bit of Salem analogy - burn the middle-aged witches that have cast a nasty spell on the site.

am i member of this coven?? If so at 35 i take great offence at being called middle-aged, however what you think of my writing is another matter, but that should have nothing to do with my age or gender.

I agree we all need to be more critical when flagging work, but the above comments remind me of school ground bullies who gang up on an 'out-group'. in this case women of a cerrtain age - funnliy enough middle aged women are as just a diverse group as middle aged men, or 20 something females etc...

Juliet

pizza,

i am new to this site and from what i saw, miasie wasn't unable to take critisism but you could have been a bit more tactful in your critique.There were elements of venom in your post, still is actually.Using social inclusion to make your point is so far off the mark when this is a site for people who enjoy writing and want to get better at it.Do you really want to make it elitist, is that it?I'm sorry but you can't censor what people write or the writers that praise stories for whatever reason.By the way, Maisie, I enjoyed your poem, (being a housewife) :-)
I found it very moving .I never read the original and I dont know much about poetry but I think you handled the subject wonderfully.

right um thanks for all the comments n reading this has generated, i never once stated my sex or whether i was a middle aged housewife at all, but.... i guess its honest enough to say my writing is mediocre at best.

so without any more ado, since this site has stopped being fun for me.

good bye :) i hope the standard here now goes up :)

How predictable Maisie. I have lost count of the number of members that once given a hint they might not be the next Dickens/Bronte/Shakespeare/Patten, have taken their writing off. Yet AGAIN it proves my point which was this... When people ask for an opinion, what they should add, is this... unless you tell me that my writing is completely wonderful and stunning and marvellous, I will have a blue fit. Nothing that offers criticism will be tolerated unless it is couched in hesitant tones that suggest the person offering an opinion deems that they are not worthy to do so.

If anyone aims to progress as a writer, they must learn to take criticism. I predict however, that certain peoplewill never appeal to anyone outside of their own fan clubs, because their writing is unstructured, unoriginal and flaps about wildly. Like a pinny. Notice how my prediction came true by the way?

Couldn't agree more with pizzas.ready, Camus and Dan above.

pizzas.ready has invested time into providing a real crit of this piece, for which the writer should be grateful. It is not everyone else that has formed this 'middle-aged housewife' group, rather they themselves that have formed a clique in which all they do is gush meaningless praise over the mostly mediocre peices the others post. That they all appeared to be of a similar demographic only inspired the label, it didn't create the group.

The reason I so seldom post here anymore is because I find it embarrssing when praise is heaped on mediocre writing (especially my own), and no intelligent crit is given - even (in the extreme) something like, "This piece just doesn't work for me because of this, this and this...off you go back to the drawing board," is needed from time to time. God forbid some of the egos here should hear that!

Yes, like Dan says, praise is good, of course, but crit is essential too.

We all write crap sometimes - I know I do - so suck it up and move on. Now to the writer of this piece: pick your toys up, get back in the pram, thank p.r. for being straight with you and keep trying to improve like the rest of us.

Thank YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!!!

x

lets get this straight

Maisie is upset because her work was called medicore and done by a gushing merry-housewife. (guys i think that would upset anyone).

Enzo is annoyed because the said same people flag up his work and say its good, when he thinks it is only medicore? Why post it then if you've already decided its not very good?

And Pizza is happy because she has been proved right - Maisie has left in a huff - uh, didn't you push her to that point?

And i'm constantly asking for crit on my work but none of the above members offer any.

Is anybody out there still happy?

Juliet

Interesting the only point you pull out of my post is the part I put in brackets - "(especially my own)" - and ignore the rest.

Of course it annoys me particularly when it is my own writing, but that was an aside, which is why it is in brackets.

Oh, the melodrama. How stupid this is. My initial post (which Maisie chose - yes, chose) to call a 'destruction' of her poem, was perfectly fair. I had, as Enzo said, invested time in it. There were lots of positives. Because I didnt say it was fabulous, Maisie took umbrage with me. That quite clearly is pathetic. If I dont agreee with the maise/silver spun crowd, I am a bully. In a clique. There is only one clique I see here, and it's a bun baking one that only serves to falsely inflate the ego of the other members. And no, it is no fun. There isnt an ounce of wit left in this place, and only slightly more talent.

Cripes. Here I find myself parachuting into enemy territory. How queer.

'Inviting comments and then saying thanks but I'll keep it as it is, is exactly what abc is not all about.'

'Abctales is x / abctales is not y' arguments always sound a little prescriptivist to me. Okay, so I'll side with someone who asserts 'abctales is not a fishmongers' but when it comes to what members use the site for, I think people ought to be afforded some latitude.
Not everyone takes a teleological approach to writing, powering endlessly towards some Omega Point of absolute excellence. I ought to declare an interest here - I am one of those writers who considers writing a craft, a vocation, and one I've devoted the best part of my life to getting better at. I need robust critiques and competition and constant challenges. But I don't think that it follows that everyone ought to take the same approach.
There's no reason why abctales can't accomodate those who want a hothouse atmosphere of thorough workshopping as well as those who simply want to share. Whilst I understand pizza's frustration, I do think - with respect - his posts on this thread come across, whether intentionally or otherwise, as needlessly vociferous, and perhaps a little rude. In my humble opinion, his feedback on Maisie's work was tactless and unnecessarily hectoring - whatever valid points he may have made get lost beneath the tone of condescension.
Look - I too have no time for prissy preening egotists who love luxuriating in twatty, nepotistic praise for their parchment-thin excuses for poetry, and then flounce off in an exaggerated huff the instant someone punctures the bubble of yes-men and women to point out gently that their work might not be perfect. I can think of specific instances where said offenders confirmed to me that they were not just mediocre writers, but muppets to boot.
However, I do not think Maisie is one of these people. My take - for what it's worth - is that she offered up her poem in the spirit of sharing, and was receptive to tactful, constructive criticism, and for whatever reason, the piece pushed about fifty squillion of pizza's buttons and he launched into a broadside on abctales' perceived backslapping culture, a debate which would be far more appropriate on the main forums.

So... I hope Maisie didn't take it too personally, and I am glad that abctales provides a supportive atmosphere for people who are exploring writing as a means of self-expression, rather than honing it as a skill. I, on the other hand, will continue to lash myself like a recalcitrant pack-mule in my deluded quest to become the uberscribe. Vive le difference. [sic]

sorry Enzo but the rest was just a repeat of what Pizza had said, and obviously i found it interesting that you felt your work was being innapproriately flagged, as i myself have flagged some in the past, hence why i focused on that point. But i will be mindful in future, even if I think a piece of your work is fantastic i will not flag it - unless i am going to be scathing about it, or at least be able to call it mediorce.

Juliet

If you go back and read, I only lost my temper because of the usual 'I'm having a tantrum because you didnt say it was brilliant'. My first post said nothing of the sort. If i spend half an hour trying to raise some points and get called destructive and ignored, then I am likely to feel aggrieved. The poem ISN'T brilliant. Sorry, but it isn't. It's sloppy. It has some good images (why am I repeating myself I wonder, it is like slamming my head on a brick wall) but it is generally poorly executed. And while people take offence and refuse to even consider points that someone - anyone, might make, they will remain static. If that's what they want, fine, but don't ask for fucking comments!

And Myke Pyro, you have some talent I think, but fishing for compliments and pulling witless emoticon faces is stupid. Go write instead, listen to crit, argue, be passionate etc etc. You have years to grow, good luck with it.

'Don't treat the reader as an idiot. Staff(fordshire)? this doesnt work in any way shape or form'
'You either want floaty poetry, angry poetry, experimental poetry or cliched poetry or a sharp prose piece. Bundling them all together in a poem just creates a bit of a clumsy mess. You have some good images as Juliet says, but a lot of this really is no good at all.'

Look - I broadly agree with the sentiments expressed here, but surely you must see that to someone you don't know these statements could seem a bit fierce. I realise that I've quoted them out of context and that you balance them with praise, but this is the kind of tone I would only use with one of my friends who I have been writing with for years, knowing that they would understand implicitly that my opinions were corrigible, possibly wrong, and underscored by a fundamental respect for what they were doing. To pull a metacritique on the critique, your tone is clumsy, occasionally billious, and fails to engage with the piece on its own terms. Prescriptivism does not equal a robust critique.

Juliet, given your apparent inability to read and interpret even simple, short posts on this forum, I doubt I'd be interested in your crit at all, scathing or otherwise.

sorry enzo was meant as a bit of a joke, i really do enjoy your writing.

Juliet

Bilious has one L doesn't it?
There is bags of praise in the original crit, I'm glad you said you quoted out of context. Yes, I can be brusque to readers of a more sensitive nature. I shall offer round fairy cakes with a simper before I offer any further opinions maybe.

could this be a case of mass sunstroke???

Hasn't all this been said before? Isn't it a waste of time? I'm always the last to say it. If it's so shit here, no one forces your browser here.

I would love some feedback on my stuff, no offence would be taken, I'd just like to know about my style flow etc. While I can see why Pizza's comments could be taken as harsh I personally would like suggestions as to where I'm going wrong or right. Of course the feedback already given about people having to have tough skin in the world of literature is bang on, if writings a hobby then no worries, if not, get used to it.
nobody

While we are at it, 'Pizzas' comment were pertinent and would be invalubale to someone who could open their eyes. 'Pizza' is someone who has helped me with my poetry and is more than qualified to make constructive comment (it was constructive!!) about maisie's piece. If I was maisie I'd be chuffed that someone had taken the time to construct such a full critique of my work.

All this old ABC/new ABC is a mythical monster that is conveniently summoned whenever anyone says something akin to 'this used to be better'. Truth is, it did used to be better and it will be again.

Although, to be fair Pizza, you are sooooooooooo sexist...

let me clear, i dont mind indepth constructive critisisim, in fact i welcome it. thats why i treated his comments with respect enough to rewrite the piece, even tho i wasnt satisfied with the results.

However the tone of his comments is abusive and i gave up being abused years ago. There seems to be amongst you lot a group of men and women who believe that this site is only for *apecial people* if that is so, surely Tony should really flag that up so people like me who prolly are not ever going to advance that much but do however enjoy it, will be detered from ever coming in.

Make it a men only site Tony and add an age bar and selection test for women. Then they can all be happy :)

I hate to blast apart your cosy assumptions that I am a man, but I am in fact a woman. Nice try at the sympathy vote though Maisie.

Pizza.Ready, please, feedback is welcome. I'm serious so please don't be too withering, (unless you have to), so don't take it as a challenge.
nobody

pizza's comments were certainly forthright, but if you ask for comments people are going to take that as a licence to tell you what they really think without pussyfooting around, so there.

oh dear the knifes are out, how many times have you lot managed to push somone from this site with this barrage of nastiness?

Jesus...grow up maisie, no-one is trying to push anyone out, just stating that you should be more accepting when offered crit rather than sarcastically saying 'thanks for the destruction of my poem'.

(not too sure why making it a men only site would acheive anything as I am also a woman!)

Ridiculous. Completely ridiculous.

Personally I think more people have been pushed from the site by the barrage of banality.

Nobody, I am sorry that I have rudely not answered you. I certainly will look out for your work... I have read some before and found it engaging.

oh gee. now i can grow up can i? now im not a middle aged woman???

blimey...

i wish more of you had gone

please delete my account here tony i have tried, but it refuses to let me...
prolly age ranged or somesuch....

i still think that to get the right mix of victims you should bring in tests .. of some sort.

best wishes

Maisie,

You are out of order.

You have received a well thought out critique of your poem, a dead positive one, if you read it properly.

What is it you want from ABC?

You tell me.

can we just end this arguement already? I for one would actually like to dicuss writing on the "Discuss Writing" forum.

Mike, that is exactly what the argument is about, Pizza was TRYING to discuss Maisie's poem and offer advice on making it work better.

i know camus. i just want to get back to discussing it.

actually im not upset at all. i found her abusive about older women and sexist. t think that about says it all. The poems etc have been removed, hopefully i will follow soon.

I only sorry that i wrote anything that was good enough to make such a grreat and wonderful human being respond to it all. Funnily enough i do get other avenues for my writing in real life. Isnt that odd. And most proffessionals would never be so personal and rude.

Just read this.

Pizza, I'm glad you copied out the poem, otherwise I would not have read it. I have a few things to add (ducks first). I like a crit like Pizza gave. Yes I want to know what's good. I don't always know, a flag shows what is. But I have had some possibly harsh crits (usually from Mark) and was glad. I am learning the trade.

Maisie, please don't leave, I have enjoyed your writing. I understood your poem, maybe more than most. Your obscure lines work perfectly if you have been in a shelter. And yes, even in the worst of times, they [the women] are nattering about the knight in shining armour. We, as humans, are programmed to pair up. Even when life has fallen apart, maybe beacause of this, we need more than ever a person to lean on.

Lisa

what a bunch of hissy twats exist on this site.poor maisie has had her poem hijacked by a bunch of inadequate twits. i only came on here for my own reason recently, some reasearch(i'm scottish but i i use an american story site).pizza, get a life and write something you jumped up little sad person(mysogyinistic to boot) and your little pretentious friends!! no wonder no-one comes on here, unless they want to get into ' the wind was luscious but bright' mode.at the end of the day no-one is buying into your sad little world, is that whats bugging you? and by the way- i have 2 cherries whether you like it or not, my dear :-)

pizza-give advice? what is the reasoning for that? he is a a venomous little guy who has no right to give advice to anyone,as i have seen he has one live poem(no cherries).enough with the sucking up, dont know what this no-hit wonder was complaining about to begin with!

and his misogynistic( have i spelt it right this time?) friends. you have no talent, obviously you have a charles manson type charisma to have such a crew of fans.its not your writing thats for sure.go and get another cause instead of hijacking sites like this!! when you have the right to critique other people (which you dont because of your venomous nature) come back and give it a go.oh, and write a decnet poem or whatever it is you do on here :-)

What difference does having cherries make to someone's ability to give constructive crit? You think all well-regarded critics are well-regarded authors?

Many people who have received far more cherries than yourself would not have been able to give advice anywhere near as concise as pizzas'. One person's cherry is another's "no-hit wonder", saffyjo.

"Jumped up little sad person". Ahhh...classic. I'd give that a cherry.

hey, think about it, i have never 'tried ' to give advice.dont make things any worse than they are, pizza this and pizza that.was pizza not getting the attention he deserved cos the housewives had better stories??? get a grip!! consize as pizzas??see-he's a regular little charismatic charles manson alright.people with more cherries than me arent involved in this debate.you are a teenager, dont try and suck up to your master on my behalf. he's not worthy of critisising anyone, my dear.thats the point.tell him to go and write some good stuff, if he did he wouldnt be wasting time crtisising anyone else, i assure you

sorry, you just think like a teenager, or someone below the realms of normal cognitive functioning for your age range. my mistake.

Saffyjo, you're saying they're acting like teenagers, you're one to talk. I know 13 year old Texans who act more mature then you are. Just stop insulting people. What you think just cause you have cherries makes you a better person then pizza? jeez.

PS: What's wrong with teenagers anyway?

Nice to see Saffyjo reads the posts properly. Shall I make it easier for her?

SAFFY JO. I am a WOMAN. You have no idea about my writing. I woulnt post my work on here for quids these days!

I am also 41. I was also in an abusive relationship for years (no, calm down Maisie, I'm not doing the sympathy thing, I just wanted to tell you that you only get over it when you don't base your entire personality around it and sweep the very trophiness of it off the table to wave at every person you speak to).

You really are a complete arse. As someone said to me last night - why are you bothering? There isnt a decent person amongst the twittering rabble. You know what? Its true. Fuckwits.

I reckon I've had 60-70 cherries off ABC. Does that mean I can say what I like?

You need at least 100 cherries to say absolutely anything you like
50 cherries lets you call a poem rubbish
30 cherries and you can complain about new abctailers
20 cherries and you can complain about old abctailers
10 cherries and you can complain about log in problems
you need 5 cherries before you can describe a poem as anything other than 'awesome'
you need 2 cherries before you can use capital letters and correct punctuation in a post
you have to have at least 1 cherry before you can stop posting in txtspk

it's all in the terms of service somewhere

I was a bit pissed last night, and knew you were probably a woman.but I didnt amend what I'd said cos a) i couldnt be arsed and b) I thought it would make you feel good correcting me-since that's what you do best :-)

what a lovely friendly little place this is.

Is Saffyjo also Rita?

I've had two SoW and I'm on about a 65% cherry rate (quick calculation), and I'm taking that as a right to say Saffyjo is a complete moron.

What I'm hoping is Saffyjo accused me of being a teenager, looked at my profile, assumed I was in my forties or fifties and then came back to say I just think like a teenager.

See, I found this software on the net that ages pictures of you. It's really clever, it can change your ethnic group too and other things. I'll post it in gen diss.

Anyway, I digress. Saffyjo: Hope your hangover's not too bad this morning, my dear.

Brilliant. Ten points to me! I knew you were (a) drunk! I swear I posted that before I saw your message, I SWEAR it.

bravo enzo!!who could have failed to notice,and where the hell did i get charles manson from.still- you're all a bunch of degenerate twats, but it's good to see how my rant has brought out some touching displays of group bonding.I'm sorry to disappoint you but I have had enough of this verbal tirade.It's been fun but I have reached my saturation point.ok, now go back to arguing amongst yourselves , or find some other sucker to pick on.p.s. I'm taking my cherries with me!over and out.

*p.s. I'm taking my cherries with me!over and out.*

Good, the person that gave them to you must have been as pissed as you were last night.

Take care dearie and don't trip over the other garbage on the way out. xxx

'p.s. I'm taking my cherries with me!over and out.'
I'm going home and taking my ball with me.
Fuck it we'll use a coke can till someone else comes along with a ball.
Why does everyone make the big announcement when they leave, why not just fuck off? I mean it's hardly like where were you when you found out Kennedy had been shot is it? (not that I was alive, just seems a popular comparrison).

nobody

Is that *two* people stormed off in a huff from just one thread, that's got to be some kind of record.

i so far dont seem to have gone. perhaps i wll just hang around to make fullly poisenous crits of every one elses work with full ref to anything i think that may be true about them....

Maisie, for the last time, go read the crit properly. It is not poisonous. It is not destructive.

I have a seven year old with better reasoning skills than you. You need to grow up.

Typical five year old arguement:

"You're stupid!"
"No you are!"
"No you are!"
"No I'm not, you are!"
"No you are!"

sound familiar people? ringing any bells?

looking back over all this today, apart from havnig fun slinging the insults.. ie, im medocre, a middle aged housewife (why that is wrong i dont know) and stupid and should grow up (always essential to chuck if you are not the above) and have no reasoning power ... lol.

i see that you never even looked at the rewrite, which i posted after your comments you were just so incensed at the your insistance that i had said ......i would keep it as is... rather than what i wrote which was.. "shall let it say what i want"

As I said earlier, 'pizza' has helped me with my poetry immensely over the past few months. It is easy to become defensive over a poem- I do it all the time. The truth is that someone else can often see the glaring flaws in something that is so close to your heart. This happens to me regularly and though it can sting when a critique is not 100% positive, taking it on the chin and being determind to improve is the way to go. 'Pizza' also said a lot of positive things about the poem and you'll have to trust me when I say that she would not have bothered with it if she thought it absolute drivel. For instance:

Anger strips the trees is great. Counting the seconds till the door opens, the huddle of women plotting, the way they season and consume her story; all of these present strong imagery, which is only let down by poor execution at times.

So take that and use it for good. And we can't read the rewrite now, as you have taken down all your work. Put the rewrite back and let people see it and how it has grown.

On UKAuthors, you specify the type of critique you want. Advanced critique means 'knives out, full honesty please.' Normal critique means 'be tender, but helpful'... or you can specify that you don't want to be critiqued at all. There is no 'just say I'm great' option.

It might be helpful if people were more realistic about the sort of comments they are after. If you say, any comments welcome then you should really be ready for total honesty.

I do think PIzza's comments were a bit antagonistic but ultimately, they were helpful. And she clearly took time over them.

I do think there is an unusual amount of bad writing being flagged and being given praise at the moment. I think Pizza is being a bit reactionary, but I can understand why. It's frustrating to see so much shit writing getting flagged up as great. And even worse when the posts are all sycophantic. It does all feel a bit self-delusional, much more about egos than learning how to write.

I don't think it's an easily solveable problem though. This is and should remain a site that is open to everyone.

Interesting points all round. Of course I like praise as much as the next egotist but we all know that crticism is what's needed to improve our writing.

Rokkit makes a good point. Any criticism should, I think be made in a charitable spirit and certainly within the bounds of common courtesy. Unless you know the writer personally straying outside these bounds loses the value of the comments. Having said that, I didn't think Pizzas comments went out of these bounds they pushed them in places maybe. I would have welcomed them. (Incidently, someone recently said to me ' You really need to sort out your line breaks. Yours are not working for the poem and have no apparent strategy." They could have said "I liked blah blah blah, but I think in places maybe your line breaks etc etc" BUT I appreciated their directness).

I myself knowingly post unfinished, sloppy and sub-standard work here. I view this site very much as a 'work in progress' notebook rather than a platform for finished and polished pieces only. The place for that is competitions or print magazines (for me!) Perhaps I shouldn't do this.

The very 'open' nature of this website means inevitably work of varying standard will be flagged. If anyone feels that there is a clique of people who flag each other's work in a back-slappy way, you can see from the titles and authors of threads which ones these are and not to read. As BBF said, no-one forces your browser anywhere.

Maddan's cherry comment made me chuckle.

Saffyjo's comments almost precipitated a relapse - I con sidered drinking the windolene but hey...

jude

"Cacoethes scribendi"
http://www.judesworld.net

BTW Maisie. The 'Issue' poem (cousin of the disaster poem) is very difficult to write well avoiding cliches or trivialising something important. This is a general comment - I wouldn't describe your poem like this - but it does in places succumb. You do have some good imagery here though (as has been said) and you could quarry this- some good material which you shouldn't waste. Peter Sansom in one of his books about writing poetry (published by Bloodaxe) gives a lot of helpful advice on the subject - I'd recommend this title. The only way of making a 'disaster' or 'issue' poem work well is to write from personal experience and to use an interesting peg to hang the issue on. For me personally, I only enjoy 'issue' poems that deal with the issue in a very oblique way.

jude

"Cacoethes scribendi"
http://www.judesworld.net

In the spirit of my usual, 'Come on everybody let's all be friends' sandal wearing persona, I have just a few things to say about this.

Firstly - Maybe everyone should start putting in their little intro box to their work how much crit they would like, if any. Some people post on here not for crit, but just to have somewhere to view/show their work, and it doesn't say anywhere that people should have to take or offer criticism. (I know Masie did ask)

Secondly - I don't see the problem with people flagging work by writers they like - it's not as though flagging is the same as an automatic cherry. I am really with Rokkit on this - I liked what he said, and me being a self-flagelating kind of writer, or at least one who is always in search of the perfect sentence, I know what kind of crit I can take and am happy to take it.

Thirdly - Honest crit can be some of the best stuff to happen to a writer. But, for crit to really work, I feel it has to come from a built up relationship of trust. If someone just tells you, brutally, what they think, when you have never had any contact with them before it can come as a shock. I think pizza's comments on this poetry is really spot on, and maybe maisie would too, but I think the shock of reading some of them could have caused some of this conflict.

Fourthly (is that a word?) - I cannot believe that 'middle aged housewife' or 'bun bakers' is being bandied about as insults. Some of my favourite writers could be dismissed as 'middle aged housewives', and the idea that that status is enough to deride is unsound. I'm sorry, but I find this offensive and misoginistic. Funny, because I happen to think pizza is intelligent, witty and brill, but I hate that kind of insult. I wanted to let it lie - but I cannot. It is just not a valid criticism.

Everybody who writes is looking to find an autentic way to communicate, I think, and not everyone will end up writing like T S Eliot. Does this mean they should be banned from writing? No. Does this mean I have to enjoy their writing? No. But then, I don't like scrambled eggs. Should I keep eating scrambled eggs and then saying how much I don't like them? Probably not.

Fifthly - Nobody ever said this a site for high literary writing. There is room for it, and in fact there is some very good writing on this site, and everyone knows what kind of writing they admire/like, or want to comment on, and there is probably room for all. I think you know from the first few lines if it is going to be a piece you like, so you don't have to read it.

The best thing that happened to my writing has been learning whose opinion on my writing I trust. It really is only a handful of people, and that has taken over 5 years to develop. Some of those are on abc, some are not. Pizza is a talented critic, and for anyone who wants to listen, I think she could really help improve their work.

I dunno. I don't like to see people fight.

Any conversation about what abc is or isn't is irrelevent really, as abc is whatever it is at that time, whatever work is posted, whatever posts are posted, whoever is logged on, visiting, whatever.

(I reiterate my original point - add a line saying what crit you want to your post - then everyone knows, and can act accordingly.)

p.s. for anyone who was questioning pizza's initial crit see this:

'Noble idea though. Worth continuing the experiment.Try taking the poem right back to the core images that you want. Anger strips the trees is great'

Pizza was trying to help maisie make the poem better. That is a really, good, genuine piece of advice.

The discussion that ensued afterwards sort of went into a vortex.

I've been away dealing with old parent and parents in law over the weekend. These are people with real problems, struggling through their remaining days with whatever dignity they can muster. They too are touch, bad tempered and difficult. They find criticism or help very difficult to accept - and criticism and help are often one and the same thing.

ABC is precisely as described by fergal - whatever it is on the day with the people who choose to use it making it or breaking it.

I have a very 'laissez-faire' attitude to the Discussion Forums. If people get into rows then I try and allow them to work it out, so long as the abuse doesn't get too out of hand.

I can see exactly why maisie got upset by the comments. The crit itself was harsh but eminently fair. I had appreciated her poem, I felt it needed work but also that it had some very good points. It was the 'clique of middle aged women' comments that were hurtful and unnecessary. People are people are people. Here we are judged by our writing. ABCtales set out to be a totally open space for writers of all abilities to join together and help each other to improve. It is fair to say that some of the best critics are not particularly good writers and vice versa. You can't comment unless you can do it better is an utterly fallacious argument - most of the best sports coaches have been, at best, indifferent at the sport themselves.

I suspect that the heat and the booze got the better of some of us and I appeal to you all to accept honest criticism as such and be thankful for it - but for critics to temper their comments at times, to be sensitive and to avoid making generalised sweeping remarks that can be hurtful.

"It is fair to say that some of the best critics are not particularly good writers and vice versa. "

Good point. Regardless of my writing I know that I am not capable of giving a very academic critique. Half the time I don't even know why I like something. I've thought about some of the comments on this thread and as a result I think perhaps a simple appreciative 'I enjoyed that' might be better sent by email to the author rather than posted on this forum.

I always took this forum to be a 'Discuss' not a 'Critique' forum where I can share my reaction to something. I agree that a critical/ analytical response to a poem may be more useful, but an emotive reaction is sometimes all I've got.

jude

"Cacoethes scribendi"
http://www.judesworld.net

"It is fair to say that some of the best critics are not particularly good writers and vice versa. "

Probably so, but no idea why that sentence is relevant to this discussion. The person who did the original critique is an extremely accomplished writer.

I don't doubt that - but in the middle of this debate there was an allusion to the view that those who are not brilliant writers cannot be critics. That's why it was there.

I thought the initial critique from Pizzas was helpful and generous. This is a poem about a sensitive issue but that doesn't make it a good poem.

Beyond the slightly narky approach to the housewife community, this is actually a point I think is worth considering:
"You get a perfectly harmless mundance poem from some merry housewife which is siezed upon by other merry and not so merry housewives and flagged, given poem of the week... it is an utter nonsense really... but this is the result."

I think there has been a growing tendency amongst the editorial team to promote poetry with harrowing and/or gratuitously emotional content despite the fact that it's severly lacking in terms of both craft and/or original ideas.

On several occasions, poems have been flagged up as poem of the week that are considerably worse - in terms of ideas and technique - than the poems on so-called 'scam' sites such as Poetry.com

While there might not be an objective judgement of good and bad poetry, there are some characteristics of poetry that mean you might eventually have some chance of getting it published in a magazine or ultimately getting your own collection published.

While poets aim to do different things, what both Pam Ayres and Geoffrey Hill have in common is that they're pretty good at what they're trying to do.

Pretending that everything is of equal value or worse, that poetry is good because people really, really, mean it is setting people up to fail - if and when they try get poems published by anyone other than vanity presses. And I think this does go against what ABC or any other writing site should be trying to do.

Fair comment I guess. I have never claimed to be able to judge poetry. If I don't get a nomination for Poem of the Week then I pick it myself - and I like the poems we have in that set. I would defend every one. But I am open to suggestion - perhaps too open - and so far I get very few nominations. It's easy to say that the choice was bad after the occasion - now get out there and choose one for Poem of the Week!

Pretending that everything is of equal value or worse, that poetry is good because people really, really, mean it is setting people up to fail - if and when they try get poems published by anyone other than vanity presses. And I think this does go against what ABC or any other writing site should be trying to do.

Brilliantly BRILLIANTLY said Bukharin/David. Thats why I said what I did. I feel I have been banging my head against a wall for a long time now, by having precisely that view. You express is more succinctly than I do, but I get angry. It's my failing.

Pizza / Liana

"You get a perfectly harmless mundance poem from some merry housewife which is siezed upon by other merry and not so merry housewives and flagged, given poem of the week... it is an utter nonsense really... but this is the result."

looking at the last 3 months of poem of the week which of these poets would you call merry housewifes?

Bosch, BBF, Rokitnite, Span, Spack, 27, Gilbert, Poet-Jude, Parker, Little Ditty, Gilbert, Span.

Juliet

"You get a perfectly harmless mundance poem from some merry housewife which is siezed upon by other merry and not so merry housewives and flagged, given poem of the week... it is an utter nonsense really... but this is the result."

looking at the last 3 months of poem of the week which of these poets would you call merry housewifes?

Bosch, BBF, Rokitnite, Span, Spack, 27, Gilbert, Poet-Jude, Parker, Little Ditty, Gilbert, Span.

Juliet

vodka-scone anyone?

jude

"Cacoethes scribendi"
http://www.judesworld.net

'I think there has been a growing tendency amongst the editorial team to promote poetry with harrowing and/or gratuitously emotional content despite the fact that it's severly lacking in terms of both craft and/or original ideas.'

Erm... what? Maybe I dozed off somewhere down the line but I spend far longer on 'tales than is strictly healthy and I haven't noticed this tendency at all.
To address the PotW and SotW issue, for me, the Poem/Story Of The Week is not supposed to be the 'best' to have appeared in the last seven days, merely one that is worth drawing attention to or using as a point of debate. If you don't like an individual choice much and want to make your voice heard, then contribute to the specific thread and explain why!

'Pretending that everything is of equal value or worse, that poetry is good because people really, really, mean it is setting people up to fail - if and when they try get poems published by anyone other than vanity presses. And I think this does go against what ABC or any other writing site should be trying to do.'

I would hope that I've been enough of an opinionated, irrascible gobshite over the years to demonstrate that I totally agree with this position. When it comes to writing I'm an old-fashioned elitist at heart, and I have no desire to see the Discuss Writing Forum descend into a glorified Caucus Race where everyone has won and all shall have prizes. But isn't possible that there are different modes of criticism one can adopt? And that some are more appropriate than others?
If your five-year-old kid enjoys plinking about on the piano, you recognise their will to create and participate and encourage it, perhaps gently introduce them to scales. You don't slap them for having bolloxed up Rachmaninov's Prelude in C# Minor but neither do you, glowing with parental pride, stick them in front of a packed auditorium and goad them into smashing out their tuneless crap in front of a paying audience.
Some people are at the early participation stage of writing, or just coming back to it, and it behoves us as a community to exercise a modicum of caution when critiquing a new member. I don't offer as much in-depth criticism as perhaps I should (mainly because my main source of income is writing MS critiques and so I'm a little edited-out) but I don't see the problem with tough critique threads and backslappy love-ins rubbing shoulders on the forums.

And Juliet, I'm not so much a merry housewife as a bored housewife. I greeted the electricity meter man in my underwear yesterday (actually true) and he didn't so much as blink. Somebody take me away from this domestic purgatory!

I was probably the only person here not to realise p.r was the pesky one. Nice to see you.

Juliet: Great point. Well worth posting twice, definately.

David: The most sensible thing said on this thread in a long while.

Also fair play to Tony. He's been saying for ages to nominate PoWs etc, so if people don't bother, you can't argue with the upshot. I always pay more attention to the stories anyway, cos that's my thing.

Ben

He was probably scared that if he looked you would remove the rest :) would have relieved the boredom though!

Juliet

Tony said "I have never claimed to be able to judge poetry",

um, maybe you should get someone else to do it then, what with you being so busy and all.

I am generally merry and have been a house husband, so I nearly qualify. I'm not sure how 'merry housewife' is a derogatory term anyway, I think it was merely an observation of how things had evolved on ABC recently.

Pizza is Liana? Blimey, who'd have thought it??

I didn't guess Pizzas identity either, the anchovy disguise was most cunning.
Rokkit, I love the word 'behove(s)' and it should be used far more often!

jude

"Cacoethes scribendi"
http://www.judesworld.net

Oh come on... the worst kept not-even-a-secret ever?

I would suggest Tony, that when you appoint eds, instead of being hell bent on this inclusion thing (which, as I have always said, is admirable in it's intent but wholly destructive once it extends to exclude everyone else) you select editors that a) have more than one hour per month to devote to the site, b) dont flag willy nilly in an attempt to ingratiate all and sundry, and c) know just the tiniest amount of what they are actually talking about, lit wise. Ferg and Tim, were fucking brilliant, in all of that. Well done, on Ferg and Tim.

Merry housewife isn't an insult. Pinny flapping housewives is, but I love it, and will continue to bandy it about at every opportunity. I am a merry housewife, sans pinny however.

Tony - you never claimed to be able to judge poetry? You big old fibber you. You have staunchly defended the most execrable things in the past. Poetry is subjective of course it is, but as David said, Pam Ayres and Geoffrey Hill write very differently, but equally well. Some of the pieces you have commended up to the site have been rib crackingly dire. When called upon to discuss 17thC literature I keep my mouth shut as I know zilch. That's how you do it.

Who are the current eds by the way?

Now that is very true. A cherry from Ferg is worth an awful lot more to me because I know she knows what she's on about. If she says something is good, I know it is. I've had cherries before for pieces that I KNOW are sloppy/ poor whatever... and that means that flagging is not a useful marker for me ...

Tim as in Tim Smilie?

jude

"Cacoethes scribendi"
http://www.judesworld.net

I guess she meant me Jude, I was an editor for a while but decided to stop for a lot of reasons.

* shamefacedly stuffs pinny under cushion *

I have no pocket for my duster now.

Tell you what, it gladdens my heart to see poetry being discussed though., Whether it descends into argument or not, at least its being discussed... these forums have been without passion for far far too long.... look at all this movement again. Hurrah!

We're discussing poetry? Oh, must have missed that.

Well I started to. Come on.

My comments in brackets:

Tell you what, (good opening)
it gladdens my heart to see (gladdens my hears is clunky)
poetry being discussed though.,
Whether it descends into argument or not, at least its being discussed (great natural rhythm to this, but discussed twice in two lines? Sloppy.)
these forums have been without passion for far far too long (really atmospheric)
look at all this movement again. (good ending, ties the piece up well)
Hurrah! (is this really necessary?)

Yes, a cherry for this piece. It's tight and concise, and has a elegance. I'd get rid of the gladdens my heart bit, but that's a personal opinion.

Ben

hrmmm... what do you think if I italicize the 'is' before the second discussed? Maybe it works better spoken. I agree that gladdens my hears is clunky, but I said 'gladdens my heart'. Taking a second look though, it is a little cliched if not clunky, so I'll rethink that.
Thank you for taking the time to comment. I really appreciate it... how can one grow otherwise? Cheers Ben!

I think all the editors (bar one) have been extremely generous with their TIME. Some are better critics than others.

I think Tony might be hard pressed to find somebody willing to be ed with more than one hour per month to devote to the site and who knows what they're on about lit wise (from this discussion I think we conclude that more than a tiny bit of knowledge is desireable)

I guess he could select 10 people who have made useful, insightful and intelligent criticism on this forum and invite them to a six month post but we all have families, jobs, and other things. Perhaps throwing in a small fee may help but I digress too far ...

Perhaps we should have a 'Site Conscience' - a discussion at the end of June when the current editors' stints expire, on how we would like editorial to work, how editors are selected, elected and any other aspects of the role...

jude

"Cacoethes scribendi"
http://www.judesworld.net

There are people who will give the time, I don't think time is the issue. There have been people who have given dozens of hours a month and never bleated about it, but also were never really appreciated. 10 editors? I think this is a bad idea. I would advocate less editors with more time.

I meant invite 10 in the hope half would agree
not all at once... 5 at a time I think....that's 10 a year

from the amount of rows that take place almost daily on these forums they have never been without passion, but once again the passion is directed at attacking each other rather than getting involved in the writing. This thread is incredibly active whilst flagged worked is languishing with very little or no comment.

Juliet

p.s. i don't mean my work.

Ha! Gladdens my hears, indeed! Thanks for taking the crit as intended. I read a poem on here once called 'Good Girl', I suggest you look it up. It may inspire you; in time you may be able to write something of that quality...

Editor must be hard job, I imagine there's a lot of crap to wade through. I always said I'd do it, but I don't know if I'd be any good.

I like it when they email, the eds. Ferg always emailed.

One thing I've noticed is that most of the people in this thread calling for a more mature attitude to critiques (Ben, David, Liana, etc) are great writers who, creatively, we haven't heard enough from recently. Post some work, kids! Better to light a candle than curse the darkness, eh?

Thanks for the compliment Rokkit, but I have been working on one thing and one thing only recently, and it's too long to post.

But point taken about the candles and darkness and what-have-you.

Well, you know - nature abhors a vacuum and all that. If we cram the forum with superb work then job's a good 'un, eh what?

On Juliet's point about flagged work languishing in the forums, this has been the trend for some time. There is an awful lot of work flagged now (too much IMHO) and most only gets 2-3 posts (normally one from the author saying ta). Also, it seems strange that most of it is not flagged by editors. The current first page has but one piece flagged by a volunteer editor. I think a stronger lead from the editors in flagging pieces and starting discussions would be healthy and avoid some of the accusations of mutual back slapping that were discussed earlier in this thread.

'I imagine there's a lot of crap to wade through.'

This may be the big off-putting factor.

For my part I may consider not posting every random thought I have and only submitting finished drafts.( I repeat myself) I was reading recently that one of the worst things about submitting poetry to (print) magazines before it is ready is that you don't actually want to see your work published and be dissatisfied with it. I'm very grateful for my SotW a couple of months ago but it was just a first draft. It had some fundemental grammatical errors in it. My concern is that somebody visiting the site might read this and think that this is the best we can come up with - something that contains some very basic mistakes and judge the whole site on this. I chose my own piece as an example so as not to offend but I'm not alone.

Could we devise a system of making the crap-wading process easier?

Perhaps there could be a 'Submit for editorial review' option when posting? I know I would only put forward about a tenth of my stuff if there was.

"Cacoethes scribendi"
http://www.judesworld.net

There is a lot of 'crap' to wade through, although most of it is not because it is unfinished, merely that it is not very good. That may sound harsh, but that's just how it was!

"Perhaps there could be a 'Submit for editorial review' option when posting?"

Problem solved, right there. That solves the harsh cirt / soft crit debate and makes the eds job easier, no?

It does sound like a good idea. Except that people's egos differ so massively. Writers like BBF and you, Ben, are always being self-effacing but - even when you have said that you are not happy with a piece - I have often really enjoyed it. I love ABCtales for the way you get to read early drafts and failed experiments by talented writers. And then there's the shit-awful poets with a nauseating amount of self-belief who post twenty poems in an hour. They think everything they write is great because... oh God... because... IT'S TRUE or it comes from REAL EMOTIONS. Argh. They will be the people who put their work forward for the eds.

Joe

Took the words out of my mouth Spack. The option to submit for editorial review would mean more crap for the editors to wade through. There is nothing wrong with the current system other than it has been poorly and haphazardly implemented. One of the uniques selling points of ABC has always been that every single piece gets read, I'd hate that to change. Some people will always post reams of angsty shite, can't be helped I'm afraid.

I don’t know about anyone else but this whole thread smacks of egos and elitism, I sense I real animosity to anyone whose writing is not what a certain small group of members see as “good writing”. This whole thread keeps talking about those who are good and the rest of it all being ‘crap’, any new members must wonder what the hell this site is for, because this thread is not in the spirit of the forum guidelines.

The discuss writing forum can be used to flag any writing, of any standard – the idea as I see it is to provide that writer with some pointers to improve, all this thread is doing is putting people off flagging anything at all for fear of being derided as a back slapper or picking what others judge to be crap writing.

I get the impression that this forum used to have very little flagged, and the annoyance comes from the fact that lots of new members flag for a variety of reasons. E.g. because a young writer is showing improvement, or another member has tried to convey something emotional and it has touched another person etc.

Yes I think the vol editors need to flag more, but as I don’t know how time consuming the role is then it is unfair of me to criticise them.

The way I see it a fair amount of back slapping is taking place on this thread – and it isn’t the middle aged witch brigade!

Juliet

I think there is a 'creative tension' between those professional, polished and academic writers who strive for excellence and originality ...
and those for whom their poetry is for personal fulfilment and self expression which we all know is legitimate and welcome on this site.

Many more people, like myself sit somewhere between these two groups.

Both camps have valid points and the finger pointing can go on ad infinitum

I'm trying to come up with some practical suggestions on how these two groups of users can peacefully co-exist.

jude

"Cacoethes scribendi"
http://www.judesworld.net

It's funny Juliet, but I could level exactly the same thing at the group i suspect you are needlessly defending here. Egos and elitism? Place it there. This whole row started because one person couldnt BEAR to think that the writing she submitted and asked for comments on, was less than fantastic. If thats not an ego problem, then fucked if i know what is.

There 'used to be' MASSES of work flagged here. Loads. Now, loads of pieces are flagged, and have one answer, usually a gushing oscar type acceptance of brilliance by the writer of said thing. If you think that is discussing writing, then I despair for your students. Dont you encourage lively debate? Dont you think that by delving, reading, talking, writing, disagreeing, agreeing, we learn? I'd absolutely HATE to learn from silence and meaningless 'well done, ty for the read'.... (incidentally, I know this sounds terrible and probably is completely just my point of view, but everytime i see you say "ty for the read" it makes me want to scream. Dont say ty, SAY something - why did it move you? What did you like? or, say something different, sometimes! Ok, Im apologising for that already)

There is room for all kinds of writing, I have honestly written badly for years and only improved to the semi literate standard i have now, by listening to other people - not people who necessarily were more learned, or published, but just listening and offering a slant on things. There are people who want to write ab ab ab rhyme, great - that's fine. What I cant abide are the oodles of three post threads "oh this moved me" "oh, thank you glad you liked it" "oh, thats ok i always like your work".

That's a nonsense... its dull, its passionless, its POINTLESS. If I come across as arrogant, well fine, I can bear that. I'd rather be arrogant than blind, not to mention bland.

Oh and witches, was your comment I believe. I said nothing of the sort. You are doing a fantastic job of denigrating your own sex Juliet...

And a final point - you say "the idea as I see it is to provide that writer with some pointers to improve"

So excuse me, but EH??? Why the hell are you disagreeing then?

An option for a certain level of crit sounds useful, but then again - there'd probably be no ends of arguments along the lines of, 'that was too harsh for a soft crit/no it wasn't' variety. The option to specify 'no crit' might help, but then it wouldn't help with those who are more sensitive than they realise, or as Spack points out, maybe a little overprotective as to their perceived abilities. Oh, I don't know.

If I had to offer some critical appraisal on every piece I flagged, I'd flag even less than I do now. I don't have a problem with pieces being flagged solely because it has appealed to someone and they want to point it out. But then I don't have a problem with taking criticism either, if I were better at giving it, I'd do it more often. It would be helpful to know which writers were truly receptive to criticism and which weren't, but I don't know how you'd find that out in advance.

As far as the 'back slapping' thing goes - trying to be pragmatic - people write the sort of stuff that appeals them and enjoy reading the same sort of stuff. So you're bound to get small groups of people who specifically enjoy each others work.

Can't think of anything else to say on the subject. All of the above has probably been said already anyway.

Jude, I thought you already were the appointed site conscious!

Juliet, the problem is nothing to do with differing groups or older members not liking change, the problem is, as I stated before, that a certain section of the site members continually flag/comment mainly ONLY on each others work, and whilst this in theory is ok it means the the majority of the rest of the users then refrain from commenting on discuss writing forum because, well to be quite frank because they think it's shit and would rather keep quiet than offer critiscism that can be misconstrued as negative (look what happened when Liana did just that). Over the past months there has been some truly great pieces flagged that have then passed by with only one or two comments, whilst other pieces submitted by the tit for tatters have oodles of 'ohhh I love this', 'ohhh well done' 'congrats on the cherry' 'can't wait for the next one'. Now like you, I don't consider myself a 'long term member' , I'm not taking any side, but I can see what the problem is with what is happening, as I said on the other thread...YOU DO NOT NEED TO FLAG/COMMENT ON EVERY PIECE THAT SOMEONE SUBMITS SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY HAVE DONE THE SAME FOR YOU!!

I agree with BBF etc, time for change, editors that cherry on merit, for damn good writing rather than to appear nice and generous.

Juliet, if a thread gave writers 'points to improve' it wouldn't *be* backslapping would it. How many recent threads contain any criticism whatsoever?

I had a much longer rant, but pizza and camus beat me to it.

Hello

I utterly agree with pizzas.read and Camus; often very mediocre poetry gets an exorbitant amount of praise from heartless, tired old ghosts; who have too little passion to say anything ‘essentially constructive’. It is some ludicrous self praising group cannibalism; random middle-of-the-road poets that have neither the wit nor courage to admonish or accept admonishment. Now if you wish to write poetry good; but it is not as Hollywood or modern Pop; poetry has passion, ingenuity, sensuality and above all else ‘humanity’ that particular quality which is not reliant upon mundane “oh that was lovely” or “you’re work makes me weep” pizzas.ready is definitely accurate. As an aspiring poet, a potential writer you are responsible for you own sensitivity; the word needs a lack lustre, humdrum writer like it needs another kick the teeth. Staunchly agree or disagree; this grey line, middle of the ground “lets all be just nice” gobbledygook is obnoxious and makes me want to bite my own head off.

Essentially not all poetry is of the same quality; William Carlos Williams is hardly a Rupert Brooke, and dear old Rupert is hardly a Percy Blythe Shelley; In an age of conformity and uniform desires and tastes – no wander these middle class IKEA, ASDA, MARKS & SPARKS refugees come on this site, demanding praise yet fearing constructive criticism – we are not all the same; 2+2 does not equal 5. Dear lord!

"As a writer you can do little more than endure bad weather" Dostoevsky.

*breathes deeply*

I must stop ranting actually, am worried that I am going to get one of those veiny things in my forehead that throbs when I'm angry like my Dad.

how many crits have you given? I certainly try, hence this whole thread.
Maybe if more of the 'good writers' critiqued more, then others would follow your lead.

And Liana i don't know what impression you have got of me but i don't flag on a tit for tat basis - i flag what i enjoy or think i can offer advice on. But yes there are certain writers that i enjoy reading more than others - same for all of us.

and ty for the read :)

Juliet

I think things have been said here that needed to be said. But because they arose from one particular writer's piece and comments thereafter, people have gone on the defensive.

I stole the concept of 'Site Conscience' from 'Group Conscience' of another group I belong to but it works! All I'm saying is when the time comes for a new editorial board, people can say what they want the site to be, the forums to be , the editors to be and decisions are made. Not everyone will be happy but we can say it has been discussed, everyone has had the opportunity to say what they feel and a decision was reached by management based on those views
...

or something

I say RANT RANT RANT; smell your fingers and rant like a donkey on fire; who stole the passion from the heart of humanity; modern morality and dire civilisation -
"comfort is a writers bane" E A Poe

I say live in filth, make friends with stray cats and always be quite happy to rant!

hahaha...I could almost hear you voice in my head as I read that spartarcad!

I'd rather see rants than dozy nothings. How crits have I given? You have no idea Juliet, masses and masses and masses. I only stopped because a) I needed to finish my final year at uni, and b) there became less and less urge to crit as everything posted on the site started to look the same.
Next question?

What is your name?
What is your favourite colour?
What is the capital of Assyria?

"any new members must wonder what the hell this site is for"

I think Juliet makes a reasonable point here but I think a lot of problems come from the fact that older members are now in that position, too.

My key problem with Tony's current approach isn't his dubious taste in poetry but his failure to hold any coherent position on this question.

Most of my professional career has been spent developing ways into writing for young people and people from excluded groups, amongst others.

The sort of criticism I offer is dependent on what sort of project we're working on, what we're trying to achieve and the basis on which the participants have been asked to get involved.

The problem is that I get the sense that ABC doesn't currently know what it's trying to do and why.

Does it want to help people become better writers?

Does it want to offer amateur group therapy?

Does it want to provide a piece of technology and let things unfold more or less at random? This seems to be the current position.

The ABCtales strapline 'everyone has a story to tell' is great but inevitable the next question is 'So what?'

Do we want to read the story and tell them it's great?

Do we want to read it and give suggestions on how to tell it better?

Even with Talecatching - the social inclusion element of ABCtales - I've always thought point the second option was vitally important.

ABCtales has a good record for helping people - myself included - to progress from where we were to somewhere a bit better. I'm not clear whether it still wants to do this or not?

And if it does still aim to do this, I'm certainly not clear how it's going to going about it in the near future?

I think Bukharin has made a valid and sensible contribution; and so invariably it shall go ignored by the majority. The key is the nature of what it means to wish to become a 'novelist/poet' essentially very arrogant and lonely people (myself included in the former, and latter) decide that hitherto no one has quite made appropriate use of the English language and they assume the role of doing this immediately. The point being - writers are the worst and best seed of our civilisation; our global civilisation and sadly being as they are; we are controlled by forces beyond civility and good conscience - primarily in the same way that if you lock twelve aroused and angry male Manatee's in a matchbox there shall be a little rough housing; so if you put a 1000 writers on one website - somebody's ego is going to get a bloody nose. I say leave them to it and let the wind sort them out.

perhaps rather than having the quick reads thread, which never seemed to be used, we could have a thread where people could simply say I like this without having to give any reasons or crit of any kind, sort of a back-slapping thread. Discuss writing could then be put back to its proper use, TO DISCUSS WRITING, this way those who didn't want to see an entire forum of 'ohhh, brilliants' wouldn't have to because they could simply avoid said tit for tat forum.

*toddles off to pay chinese man down the street to cook her dinner.*

Camus, I was going to make a similar suggestion...
that we have a 'critique' or 'editorial comment' forum leaving this one for uncritical flagging. I'd probably use both...

However someone's going to moan that users of the critique thread see themselves as some kind of elite... even though it will put some people out, I think it would be a good approach.

Camus, that's the most constructive thing I've heard. Good idea. It could be the Quick Flag forum or something. Surely we could lose a couple of the other forums to make room - god know's they're rarely used.

Apart from that, I think Bukharin has got to the point at the heart of all this. The site obviously isn't what *all* people want it to be, but because there is no official 'should' about it, this argument just becomes endless. Maybe Tony should say if it has a 'specific' aim or if it hasn't, implement some practical measures (such as Camus') to allow the various groups to stop bugging the hell out of each other. Otherwise this debate is going to keep coming up as it has done before, and quite frankly, I can't be bothered to *rant* about any of it. It'll be on another thread in three months.

sorry liana my first comment was directed to maddan, as he asked how many threads contained crit - should have made it clearer - and actually my second point should have been directed to Camus - as it was her capitals that provoked my reaction.

But too be honest i don't want to be insulting anybody - just defending an incorrect perception of me. One thing i have tried very hard to do since joining is offer more than just praise - though on occassions i just think a piece is great and i want stop saying that, if that is what i believe, but i think Buk raises some interesting points - can the site not be all these things?

Juliet

oh right,

I've given exactly two critiques, one was 'this has too many adjectives in it' and the other was 'loved the last two lines', I was also particuarly scathing about my flatmate's attempt to park the car last night.

Why?

why in god's green earth is this debate still going? I mean this has got to be the longest i've ever seen in the past 21 weeks. and it's about a comment on a poem! not about abortion, or the goverment, or writers, but a freakin comment!

i'm sorry but does anyone else find that extreamly odd?

Not really, Mike. It's about writing, after all, and this is the discuss writing forum. I'd be far more surprised to see a ding-dong over Roe vs Wade... you baby-murdering swine.

Mike, it is a debate about writing and writing feedback, if you don't want to see that the debate is still going on then don't click on the header, just bypass it and look at some other threads.

Juliet, believe it or not my tit for tat comment was not directed at yourself, in fact not one of my comments has been as I am quite aware that although you do sometimes flag/comment on several of the writers who seem to do this, you also comment and flag on many, many others. My comment was directed solely at the group that only seem to pat each other on the back (it seems that everyone knows who they are except themselves!)

"David/Used to be Bobblehat till I went too far one day" is right in that ABC (ie Tony, cos everyone else has fucked off!), doesn't know what it is trying to achieve. The nett result is that it achieves very little.

That's a little harsh.

I think ABC achieves a lot more than can reasonably be expected for a free site...
though it may well be it could achieve even more if it scrapped the forums.
So far as I can see most of the arguements on this thread are based on the assumption that ABC IS the forums. Still such arrogance and the resulting power struggles probably explains why it makes compulsive reading for the BB mentality and maybe does add an extra hit or two to the site in the short term :O)

we're not even discussing the story itself though. if u want a debate on what ABCtales has acheived or about writing poetry then start a thread on that, don't add 148 comments to a thread discussion that was ended long ago, yet seems to keep going. And i would go discuss on other threads if they actually existed, everyone has ganged up on thread and now no other stories are being reviewed. there hasn't been a single cherry award since this thread began and maybe...what, 4 flags in 3 days?

Mike, if you have something constructive to say about a piece then flag it yourself, have a read through recently added and try to realistically ascertain how many pieces you REALLY think are worth a flag, then go through again and ask how many do you think are outstanding enough to be given a cherry?

Post your answers on another thread if you like and you never know someone may answer you, and if you are lucky you may be able to have a little debate of your own about the piece/s you chose. Just don't go choosing a piece simply because you like the author or they have flagged/commented on something of yours in the past! (oh and don't chose your own piece either.)

ur making it sound like all i do is flag the work of those who have commented me, sounds a little hostile doesn't it camus?

i'm just saying what i think.

Camus isn't being hostile, Mike.
She is merely stating the rules for the 'Discuss ABC Forum'...
at least those that her particular little clique wish to see adopted.
You should also try to make sure the author is English, went to the right university and has had an occassional rant on the threads.
Bear in mind that it's OK to be smug, arrogant or pretentious once you have been here a while and have the right friends.
Oh, and you should have, or be getting, a degree in Creative Nom-de-plumes so you have several different personnas so you can back yourself up :O)
After your 3 year apprenticeship you may even be allowed to flag pieces from people that you like... so long as you both went to the same Uni :O)

*whoosh* that's the sound of 50% of what u just said going over my head, sorry but i really didn't understand u mykle.

I have several different personnas? is that an insult or a comment. i really can't tell, it's like we're speaking in another language here. (no insult intended)

Mike, I was simply saying that if you wanted to create discussions on other pieces then make sure you actually thought that they were good, you think I'm being hostile to you, fine, I can assure you I'm not. However, next time you come on here bleating to change the subject, and then doing nothing about it I just may be!

Mykle, you really are the most insidious twat, only showing your face again when you think you may be able to use that giant spoon of yours.

You are assuming (yet again) that I, and everyone else is English simply because they are listed as living in the U.K, ok, we can already see inside Mykle's tiny little world from that point of view.
You assume that I went to the 'right' university, which one would that be then as I live in bloody Lincolnshire!
Erm, it's ok to be smug, arrogant and pretentious when you have been here a while...well, you have been here a lot longer than me and seem to have cracked that one well.

I don't need a creative non-de-plume to back myself up, as you can see I am quite happy being Camus (the same Camus that you seem to think is someone else, even though you have mailed me before saying how much you like my writing, soon changed your mind when you realised I wasn't actually an innocent newcomer that you could try to influence but a friend of Liana's didn't you!)

Finally, check how long people actually have been here, nowhere near 3 years as you can see, and as I only went to uni (is this a jealousy thing you have going on here, you seem to be obsessed by uni's) with Liana (btw, that is the same Liana that has already told everyone that she is pizzas.ready,) I would be a little restricted in what I could actually flag now wouldn't I?

Now I am sure that you are bent over your pc, hobbit-like waiting to get that spoon of yours out again so i will finish there and go get ready to spend the day with 30 seven-eight year olds looking at Roman Lincoln and leave you to dream up some more crap.

I have never been to any university, Christ I can hardly read and write.

I have only once flagged a piece by someone I know in real life and that was a poem by Fergal (who I don't really know that well).

I am not English.

Guess I'm not in the clique then.

What a shame.

shurely the uni comment wasn't aimed at Camus ?

In the 7 months since I started posting a fair bit of work here, I've had flags but the only 2 people who've given me useful crit are Neil and Camus. Last poem she flagged, the flag said what she liked about it, what didn't work AND (and this is the really important bit) suggested an alternative to the line that didn't work. I nearly sang the f*****g Te Deum... more of the same please!

And we didn't go to uni together.I graduated from King's with a science degree. In fact we've never met.

Regarding uni cliques it was all thrashed out on the "Andre Cowan..." gen diss thread some months ago so I won't dredge it all up.

Sorry M, I know where you're coming from, and there maybe are inner circles here but Liana and Camus are not like this...

jude

"Cacoethes scribendi"
http://www.judesworld.net

"but i think Buk raises some interesting points - can the site not be all these things?"

Yes, the site can try to be all these things but the results are as BBF suggests - largely because the actions that would be taken to achieve these things are quite different.

Back in the old days, the idea of ABCtales was that it would be a business.

It isn't a business because it doesn't sell goods or a paid-for service.

The choices left are that it could be a funded project - with some aims and objectives that it takes logical step towards acheiving - or that it can be an amateur, run it from your bedroom operation.

I don't have a moral objection to amateur, run it from your bedroom operations, I've very much enjoyed being involved with several but, from discussions with Tony, I've deduced that this isn't what he wants ABCtales to be.

Ironically, when ABCtales was a failing business, it was quite a good voluntary sector project - which undertook a number of clear functions to help writers improve their writing, access opportunities and gain greater exposure for their work. It did this in a refreshingly non-elitist manner which set it apart from many other writing organisations.

I think there is money out there to fund this kind of work in the future - so that Tony doesn't have to continue to fund the site out of his own pocket - but, before that could be accessed, there would need to aims, objectives and a clear sense of direction.

Yes indeed David. The aim of ABC was clearer in the past and yes, it was refreshingly non-elitist. The problem seems to be that there are groups of different users who want ABC to be a certain way and it has now become impossible to please all the people, etc. I don't think ABC is elitist now, despite what some people may think. I still think that there needs to be a stronger sense from the ABC team (such as it is nowadays), as to what ABC hopes to achieve. I think Mark Brown used to do a lot of good work in highlighting how he thought ABC should (or could) work. Sadly Mark has moved on to other ventures and Tony is amazingly busy. I think that there is now an ABC ideological vacuum that needs filling sharpish.

The site cannot do it all. I wish that it would do one thing (whatever that may be) and do it really fucking well.

Jude, thankyou...I have had a hectic day, my feet hurt, my nose is burnt (not surprising considering its size) and I now have to rush around packing for my trip to Silverstone tomorrow, but reading your thread made me smile.

Um, as for time, I really do do as much as I can - I try for at least an hour and a half a day, more on others. So many pieces are in the unread pile and long ones take a while to read. Some days I come on, read, say 20 pieces, none of which I feel the need to flag, and then log off. It may seem invisible to other users, but this is how I spend my time on here. It would help a lot if there was a restriction to, say, 3 pieces a day. Sometimes people come on here and post 20 pieces and my time will be taken up with that. I used to use the forums more, but I don't have the time as much. I liked all the gen dis stuff - that used to get me excited... but we need members to post interest posts on there, the sort that gets everyone adding to it.

I don't know how many cherries I've given since being an editor. No more than 25 I'd say. Something has to really grab me to give a cherry, feel a bit special. I flag something when I feel there is something to talk about... some things are perfect as they are, or the opposite. But I do like to contact people about their writing separately, whether I've cherried them or not. Sometimes I've asked if they want their work discussed on a forum, and more than a few people I asked said, 'No thank you, I don't feel up to it. That's not why I'm on here'.

I actually think the self-flagging can work, even though it's looked down on. At least then we know if someone wants in depth comments or not. (If someone asks to have their work commented on, they cannot expect a pure, 'Wow. This is the best thing since Fitzgerald! You're great!')

I really love abctales. It has had high times, low times and all in between. At some points since being a member - 2 years - it has been a bit of life saver. I think it is going through a transition at the moment, and we can keep it going by using the forums as much as we can. The forums were what drew me in the most when I first joined, esp gen diss, and when I worked in an office, I always had abc open so I could keep up with the forums and add my ten pence, getting mini crushes on other members because they were so funny or smart.

I agree.
Although it has been said before
ABC tales is a wonderful resource.
One which I am sure we are all immensely grateful or surely we would not spend so much damn time on here.

I dont often comment on many of the threads as they make me feel like I am in a perpetual break up.

I might get shouted down for this, someone has already pointed out that this is not the thread for saying how great abc tales is however,
I have found it to be invaluable, inspiring and yes a bit of a life saver.

It is interesting to hear that abctales is going through a bit of a direction change, I had wondered what was going on.

There are cliches and there are idiots and there are people who just love the sound of their own voice.
I dont reckon much of this will change, but I do reckon everyone should just get the hell on with it.

Is the sun not shining where you folk are today?
Its lush here.

I wish I was an apron wearer. I am out of work, just need to go find myself some idiots to take care of...

Span

i want to apologise for my comments last week.I was not on the windolene but I had no right to insult people.I thought someone gave a harsh review(the review itself I can't comment on, and the person who wrote it) I just thought it was a bit harsh(apart from the constructive critisism).Pizza , I'm truly sorry.
I just want you to know I got a bit incensed about things that I couldn't even possibly comment on, and had no right to even give an opinion as i am not a member of this site(nor do i know anything about poetry).like i said, i just wanted to say sorry to anyone i offended.I think you worked it out for yourselves.i didnt go off in a huff, i wasnt a member of this site to begin with really. all the best to everyone.

You were a member of this site. You posted some writing, you got involved in an arguement, I reckon that makes for full membership!

If you were to stick around and get to know it better, I think you'd see that most people here are pretty decent - maybe you'd like it...

Either way, all the best.

curious connie.

How dare you say the people who gave me cherries were pissed.You know that's not true you little suckup artist. Garbage? let me be the judge of that.show me your cherries you little skank! think you will get laid on here do you? show me the prose!When you have cherries, come back at me!over and out!again.

I am listening. I think I'd better make some kind of statement, after thinking carefully about it, in the not too distant future. I believe that I have a clear and well worked out strategy for ABC - and, interestingly, the consultant from the Cass Business School, who is working with me at the moment to develop that future strategy, seems to think it is well worked out too. But there are clearly ideas in here that need to be considered and I thank you all for taking the time to comment in such detail.

"If you were to stick around and get to know it better..."

Hmm. Or not.