Why I try hard not to hate the baby boomers...

Well Jude, a good rant always clears the sinuses, I find :-)

1) Didn't
2)Haven't
3)Renting & my kids know they're stuck with me
4)As far as it went.
5) hahahahaha, give me a break :-)

I do feel a little better now. Lechenelf, you are truly exemplary - a shinning dewdrop upon the cow-pat of your age!

jude

Buy you a pint sometime missus ? :-) (dewdrop????)
Lena :-)

I shall hold you to that at the next abctales event (you should come)!

jude

You're on
(packs zen zimmer frame, ouzi, soapbox, eau de toilette ...all the essentials , you understand, mindchoo, I don't do stairs, bit like the Daleks:-) )
Lena

"5.Baby Boomers despite their youthful Hippie ideals have been into conspicious consumption more than any subsequent generation."

I think 'hippie' is more a sensibility than a set of ideals.

It's certainly true that what is now the most prominent brand of 'new age' thinking combines the worst of right-wing thinking (excessive individualism and a general belief in the right to instant gratification irrespective of the effects on others) with the worst of left-wing thinking (disregard for traditions on the basis that they're old rather than on the basis that they're bad).

But lots of hippies didn't go down that route.

Yes, utterly correct Bukh... I should have said

Baby Boomers despite being the generation within which the hippie subculture was born ... have indulged in conspicious consumption more than any subsequent generation ...

or something.

jude

1. My esteemed ancestors smoked like veritable chimneys, but by the time I wanted to take up smoking it was all, 'oh, you can't do that, cigarettes are bad for you.'

btw sherry is the same drug as beer, just stronger.

2. My own pension? Where?

3. Ah yes, I did have a scheme to inflate house prices. It seemed to work for a while. Not exactly sure how I did it, but I seem to have stopped now.

Here's my problem: everybody else's house went up too. I didn't see that one coming. The only way to enjoy my ill-gotten gains will be to sell my house and live in a bus shelter.

4. Free education good. Polytechnics good. As for sending everybody to uni to study Big Issue Retailing and Cooking & Cleaning Issues, more degrees means a better educated population. I can't for the life of me see the flaw in that proposition, although people do laugh when I say it.

My local primary school has just been granted university status. Pupils can now take degrees in Times Tables, Spelling, and, for the less academically inclined, an MBA in riding your bike.

5. I admit it, I sometimes walk down the high street eating a pork pie. Conspicuous consumption is such bad manners.

Are you making a bid to become the New Macjoyce? So long as baby boomers are all middle class, and I have a suspicion they might be, you two will get on like fire!

I think you make some good points poetjude. 'Real' hippies were rebelling against crass materialism....amongst other things. I think some have stayed true to those ideals in spite of hefty salaries and inherited wealth. Of course not all baby-boomers were ever philosophically inclined in the first place.

'Are you making a bid to become the New Macjoyce?'

Nah, I could never reach his lofty heights. Not a class thing either since a lot of working class baby boomers bought their council house at huge discount, sold it to my generation for some stupid sum and then retired to the Costa del Sol.

jude

btw I'm just writing for the sake of it. The only serious point I have is that it's better to blame things on the people who did them rather than to suppose it's a conspiracy of the middle classes, jews, nanny's bloomers, or whatever.

Oh, and sherry really is the same drug as beer. You can only get one drug, it's just the flavours and strengths that change.

I don't think it's a conspiracy and I don't think emerging trends are their 'fault', hence I try not to hate since I would have been the same if I had been born 20 years earlier.

Sherry, beer, champagne truffles, mouthwash, I spurn them all.

jude

A nice glass of meths and a Werther's will sort you out, m'dear. De-natured alcohol and sugar is my recipe for a long life and happiness.

I can't take any of this seriously except for the points that Buk made.
I'm just posting to say that I found FTSE's 5 points very amusing and worth the whole thread. Made my day.

Guilty, Guilty, Guilty, I retired to the Costa Del Sol; you know what? I'm damn glad I did. My pension is still taxed at source so you're getting your pound of flesh Jude, to fund whatever it is you want to fund. No, I don't demand winter fuel allowance - I'm not old enough for a start. No, I don't sit in an English themed pub all day moaning because no-one speaks English. My Spanish is pretty damn good after barely four years and I do not want to come back. One more thing, it's absolutely nothing to do with Poles, people of the Islamic faith or poor services. It's the sun, stupid.

As I said, I probably would have done the same ...

jude

1. I never did the dropping out thing, spent my gap year working in a bank

2. my pension is worth less than I have paid into it at the moment

3. have bought one flat, never traded up or down since, it's where I live

4.Had the free education, thanks, and marched against proposed cuts in the 80s, didn't do much good, sorry

5. I do like shiny things tbf

I'm at the arse end of the baby boomers, born in 65, I previously thought that the baby boom stopped in 64, so now you tell me I'm part of the previous generation -

and on a serious note, it was the baby boomers who became politicians who did all that - the rest of us didn't like it

The cut off date was actually August 1965. 9 months prior to the release of 'Mother's Little Helper'.

right, so I am a baby boomer, the last 5 months of the baby boom

this is our time !!!

The generational cut off dates are usually arbitrary or ill-defined. I am either the tail end of generation X or a pioneer of generation Y depending on your definition. Socially, I am more like generation Y but in all other facets of life, I am definitely a generation X-er.

Social trends evolve gradually over time so those on the end of a generation will show traits of the next. Similarly, those at the beginning of a new generation will share characteristics with the preceeding generation.

Also each generation has distinct sub-sets (I am in the MTV generation, a sub generation of X) and the baby boomers born between 1946 and 1950 tend to be more austere than those born during the fifties due to them experiencing and remembering post-war austerity. Those born in the sixties have a lot more in common with generation X.

And all these are perceptions of social trends rather than absolute definitions of people.

jude

Are you suggesting a Social model similar to that indicated by Transgenerational Epigenetics, where effects may indeed skip a generation (longitudinal study..name escapes me)? S'interesting stuff. Do we, as a hypothetical parallel, emotionally hark to a time of our Grandparents and their lifestyle/mores/memes/norms as a romanticised, but authoratitive model of behaviour :-)
puts kettle on, thinks about struffolli :-0)
Been mulling on this for some time btw, I think we're on a backswing in some respects :-)
atb Lena

I'm not a social scientist and have never heard of Transgenerational Epigenetics but it sounds good!

This is, as I alluded to, a generalisation. I just get bitter about being unable to trade up from a flat to a family home because of the house price bubble. You can argue that it's burst and deflating but this bubble happened to be inflating at the peak of my fertility! Generation X, have been the most shafted by the asset bubble - our parents could have a home on one salary whereas two salaries are necessary now and even that isn't enough. It's one of the reasons why from my circle of schoolfriends (about 10 girls), only one has a child and we turn 33 this year! In hindsight, the MTV generation will probably be renamed the IVF or test tube generation!

Generation Y has been shafted by the boomers as well but they're too naive to realise (or should I say 'there to naive too realise' since the trophy kids were never taught grammar in case the correction hurt their feelings).

Before anyone gets all uppity, I know, it's an unfair generalisation, my brother is a Millenial and he can spell; not all boomers stoked the asset bubble and variables such as socio economic background play a large part.

I am just suffering from some of the neologisms identified by Coupland in his book "Generation X":

Boomer Envy:
Envy of material wealth and long-range material security accrued by older members of the baby boom generation by virtue of fortunate births.

Homeowner Envy:
Feelings of jealousy generated by the young and the disenfranchised when faced with gruesome housing statistics.

jude

Your level of frustration with the situation is understandable; to get onto the housing ladder, my elder children have delayed their potential of higher education in order to work, save and buy a property, though trading up or future study will not be an option for many years. They have some resentment of the either/ or choices perceived to be available to them at the time, but in the end, it was their choice,rather than renting, which is more than some have open at present.

I know of many in a similar situation, who delayed having a family until their mid-late 30's and are then faced with extra-ordinary and exorbitant childcare costs as with geog. mobility for employment and an aging grandparent pool, do not have a family network to rely on. My grandson is older than their eldest children, though we are of an age.

Where I would disagree, is that you seem to take this to be a novel phenomenon, peculiar to your age group?

The divergence of house prices from wages has never been as wide as it has been in the past decade.

It makes no odds now really since I sold my flat and got a council flat which is being knocked down next year when I'll be moved into alternative social housing (which will be big enough for my needs so I can have a child now if I choose).

Childcare costs can be reclaimed through tax credits up to £175 pw but only for a single parent, so it means I can't actually get married and have my other half move in until the kid starts school.

This isn't the way I planned my life to go (social housing as a single parent) and it shouldn't be the only option for a young professional with an excellent education and a good job, but I've been forced into a corner!

Council housing used to carry a stigma, now my position is enviable. Sadly I had to be so ill I almost died before I qualified!

jude

"Childcare costs can be reclaimed through tax credits up to £175 pw but only for a single parent, so it means I can't actually get married and have my other half move in until the kid starts school."

Jude, there are alternatives, which, from my experience and of other families have been an initial lifestyle based on one f/t income and a part time wage. The role of childcare to be decided between yourselves. It's an option, but it does mean the need for a flexible attitude on the part of an employer and you as a couple.

..and yes, adequate social housing, such as it is now, is very, very limited. Hence the flurry in the private sector.

Whatever you choose to do, I sincerely hope it goes well for you and your partner.
atb Lena

It's a minefield and I keep mulling over the options with a calculator. I want a career but I don't think most childcare is up to scratch and I think I'm best placed to care for child. Financially we'd be better off living apart but of course we want to be together. I have the feeling that things will work out and thanks for the good wishes!

jude

I'm taking a year off work to be a househusband* from xmas. I'm fortunate that my work will give me a career break, because it is in fact cheaper for me not to work than pay for suitable full time childcare in my area (2 kids under 3).

That said, even if it wasn't cheaper, so long as we could afford it, I would always want it to be me or my wife as primary carers in the pre-school years.

I means 4 of us in a teeny tiny toy flat for longer than we'd hoped, but like you Jude, we can't afford to buy a house anyway, so we'll make do.

Best of luck with everything, Jude. I don't post much but I often read - I look forward to hearing more as things develop for you.

Ben

* feel free to replace with a more PC term of your choosing

* feel free to replace with a more PC term of your choosing

Manbitch?

A friend of mine finally found the girl of his dreams about five years ago. She was about fourty and had waited all her life for the right man.
My friend decided to wait awhile, just to be sure that the relationship would last before chancing children.
Finally, he decided that a child with her would be worth the disruption and she was such a lovely person thet any child of hers would be a blessing to the world. Recently, she missed her period and began choosing names, she was glowing with happiness.
My friend was a bit worried about her since mid-fourties seemed to him to be a little late to have a first child.
He talked her into going to the doctors - she wasn't pregnant after all... probably menopause.

Fertility starts dropping after 35,and dropping sharply after 40, although I know someone who married at 34 and had seven! I also know someone who has just had her first aged 46 (natural conception).

Another issue where I live is the lack of suitable state schools. I can at the moment afford to send only one child to an independent day school.

Enzo, it is wonderful that you're going to be a full time manbitch. I know someone else who has just given up work to care for his baby son and he looks so full of joy and gratitude for having this time with his child.

jude

* feel free to replace with a more PC term of your choosing

hero or example, either will do.

Ewan

Haha - Hero or example perhaps, but I'm guessing Manbitch will stick.

I'll report back at the time with how it pans out. I've had a taste of it anyway, I was part time for a while last year. It mostly consisted of soft play areas with surprisingly deep ball pits, muddy days at a city farm and parent & toddler groups in which I was the token man. I've also seen loads of Something Special on Cbeebies - it's genuinely educational. I know lots of Makaton signs now.

It's hard work yes, but how much better than sitting in an office is all that? Loads, I tell you.

B

I certainly hope it doesn't stick, Enzo!

Simply 'Full time parent' might be the term of choice because that's what it is and surely it is something to be encouraged be it man or woman.

Jude,
Your criticisms are appropriate. We (Baby boomers) started out like the original rebellious generation. We questioned everything. It was a radical break from the past when children accepted as gospel all that the earlier generation had taught them.
We stood against war and racism and all other ugly side effects of an established bureaucracy. Sometime we changed things, sometimes we failed. But at least we tried. Today. kids stand for good jobs, a beamer (BMW) and any established order that will deliver the same to them.
As we got older, we had children and sought pensions and security like any other aging band of brothers. But always ever in out minds was the question "what is right with government and society and what can we do to change it? "
No generation has a lock on righteousness. Hopefully, every succeeding generation builds upon the gains of the previous one. I hope those of you who come after us rigorously challenge your government on any and all issues that you find pertinent. Youth is the spear point of change. May it never blunt itself on the glut of temporal comfort.
J.X.M

At least we baby boomers weren't dullard enough to run up fifty grand on credit cards while seemingly oblivious to the fact that one day it would have to be repaid.

Gnash!

Absolutely true and the chickens are coming home to roost. I have to say, those in their late twenties and thirties have an almighty slap in the chops coming. As well as being maxed out on the credit cards, most of them have eyewatering mortgages they can't really afford and when interest rates are put up to double digits (because either the guv'mint can't sell bonds any more or we need a hand out from the IMF) there will be reposession en masse. They don't deserve to be bailed out and I think the period a bankruptcy lasts should be extended to 15 years.

Maybe it isn't just the baby boomers who irritate me - I think I have a problem with other people in general and need to learn a bit of tolerance.

jude

You should try thinking like a nun :)

Intolerance is good. Be intolerant of racists, sexists, peadophiles, stupidity and caravanners. And that twat who got chucked off The Apprentice last week.

* LSD
* The Anarchist Cookbook
* Alternative London
* LSD
* The Dice Man
* Kurt Vonnegut
* LSD
* The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test
* Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas
* LSD
* Rolling Stone
* Gonzo Journalism
* LSD
* Tim Leary
* Richard Alpert
* LSD

% Booze
% Mortgage repayments
% Clean the car
% Booze
% Paint the drainpipes
% Political correctness gone mad
% Booze
% School run
% Running five minutes late
% Booze
% In the loop
% Presentation
% Booze
% Sales figures
% Commuter trains
% Booze

Eh?

Sumfink wrong wiv yer ears, mate?

*/% My Pink Half of the Drainpipe

!/? The Doughnut in Granny's Greenhouse

"*/% My Pink Half of the Drainpipe"

is the resolution of the equation

(* Alternative London)/(% Paint the drainpipe)

Signed
Bonzo's Dog

That's the New Maths version, of course. That's our fault too, isn't it?

I thought it was Nude Maths. No wonder people stare.

They have families :) Love, love, love :)

~It's a maze for rats to try, it's a race for rats to die.~

poet jude, read your fierce diatribe against baby boomers. it hasn't been like that for all of us, I decided to stay at home with my two boys, after having had a career for 15 years. When I did, I felt isolated, and guilty for not working. All society seemed to require all adults of working age to be putting into the pot. I resisted, my husband was a shift worker, I wanted to bring up my children with my values, and it seemed the sensible option in our case. We struggled financially, didn't have new things, I was cross I couldn't have new baby things when they were little, we bought second hand, clothes, furniture the lot.Now, I am really glad we didn't spend what we didn't have. Our boys are teenagers now, and I am still at home, although we are not married, so the boys are co-parented.Life is complicated, and it's easy to look at others and feel hard done by. I know the only way to live well , is to live within your own conscience, and values. Envy is the precursor of greed, and greed is never satisfied. Live well, be happy.

Best of luck with the manbitch stuff, Enzo. I did it for three months in 1978 in Mid Devon. Our eldest started at playgroup in this time - you can imagine how the housewives did chatter when the manbitch turned up at Copplestone playgroup with his little girl. In fact they just ignored me completely - to the extent that at coffee time I got no coffee. Ho Hum. I guess the long hair, hippie, parliamentary candidate (Labour) tag didn't help either. Or the well known local fact that we had wild people from Lunnon' come to stay weekends. It was all too much for them (but one of them did wink at me in the car park!)

I have to say that I find the use of “manbitch” as a term to describe a full time male parent as extremely insulting, it also implies that women who choose to look after their children rather than work are simply bitches.
I find it hard enough to understand why Dan should have suggested such a term but that Mr Cook should seek to popularise it is beyond belief!

Anipani, I thought your post was worthy of a cherry - you are a star!

Completely agree Mango head, manho would be so much better.
Agree with anipani too, this thread smacks of Victim, Self-Pity, Poor Me. Reminds me of one of those boring drunks who sit there bemoaning their lot conveniently able to forget that if they hadn't played out their life trashed in the gutter they may have made something of themselves. And of course someone else has to be to blame.
Human nature I guess, something goes right it was down to me, if it goes wrong it was someone elses fault!Your generation is the one at fault, you expect everything on a plate, to buy a house you scrimp and scrape and once the mortgage is paid you enjoy life. You don't do both at the same time.
How vindictive to hope people lose their houses and end up bankrupt, is this so you have someone to look down on? Will it make you feel good about yourself when they're homeless and you have your council house?
If your only problem is you can't buy a house with all that is going on in the world you should think yourself lucky. Get grateful.

'Manbitch' was a joke, Mangone. A deliberately outrageous suggestion for comic effect - well, I laughed. (It's all right, Enzo would have got it too, they all know each other).

~
www.fabulousmother.co.uk

Point taken 2Lou.
I just feel that we should be encouraging people to put their children above their pay packet.

It seemed to me that Mr Cook's post did the exact opposite, at least for men thinking of being a full time parent, except for those who see it as an opportunity to meet winking women :O)

My gripe with house prices as a large and rather insane ponzi scheme is as much for my brothers (20, 23, 27) young professionals who are priced out.

I have myself never been out of work and have enjoyed a fruitful career which I am still building upon. I could have bought another property but wasn't dumb enough to buy at the peak. If you look at the asset bubble psychology chart http://www.thefinancialhelpcenter.com/Real-Estate-Pics/Bubble-Psychology...
you'll notice the words "Greed" and "Delusion" at the point where buyers will end up bust.
Repos are essential to deflate the bubble quickly (which causes less economic pain than long slow deflation Japan style) and whilst I do regret the human cost when people over-levered through ignorance or delusion, I have no sympathy for the greedy speculators.

I agree that people must scrimp and save for a house but how can say a teacher and a shop manager on a combined salary of 45K ever buy a house in London when the average price went through the 300k mark? And when they start a family and lose one wage it becomes even more unachievable no matter how hard they work. Success in one's career doesn't always equate big salary.

You're right though that I should be more grateful.

jude

Alright Mangone - I do know Dan and Tony (and Lou!) and took the comment in the spirit it was intended. I have to be honest, I don't know how offended I'd be even if it was said seriously. Not particularly, I imagine, but I can see why you'd react to it.

The serious point is about status, I think, more even than pay. Some people I meet seem to closely associate the position of their job with their sense of achievement in life.

I'd understand if they did real big important jobs, like nursing, teaching, prime minister(ing?), etc but most do the kind of middle management bullshit drudgery that I do.

These are the kind of people who would meet you for the first time and ask 'What do you do?' (meaning for work), before thinking to ask 'What do you like?'

I'm a full time lone male parent and I've had more 'winking' this past few years than I've ever had. It's the best time of my life and I'd recommend it to anyone ;)

~It's a maze for rats to try, it's a race for rats to die.~

Well, perhaps a good reason for single male full time parenting Yan :O)

Whatever Enzo, I'd just like to see the term bite the dust and something more encouraging take its place.
I'd be quite happy for your name to be used.

Think of it this way; how would you like it if people started saying
"I used to be an Enzo - but I'm working now."?
If that doesn't bother you then I can see why manbitch doesn't either.

Taking your wife to court and being rewarded full time residence of a 4 year old girl is a feat not many men achieve. I don't give a stuff about some job...I've turned tradition and discrimination on its head and it's something I'm very proud about. Plus, I'm a darned good daddy!! Manbitch is fine by me. I'd much rather spend my day cooking flapjacks, reading, and having lazy afternoon masturbation sessions than sit in a boss sandwich ;)

~It's a maze for rats to try, it's a race for rats to die.~

I think you have every right to be proud of yourself.
I'd just rather it was Manwell not manbitch ;O)

From Barthelona?

Have you been reading my Woss joke to Chuck, Peaceful?
I think he would probably have made a great full time father once he stopped waiting for Basil:O)

Yeah pat yourself on the back Yan...
Oh hang on, I seem to remember you were on the dole when you came back and caught that bloke servicing, in a way you couldn't, your mentally ill wife.
Turned convention on it's head, you wish.

Ooer, Mrs!

Too post-modern for me that humorous remark.

No, GodAlmighty. A full-time working male hasn't got a chance of gaining full custody of a child in a residence case if the mother isn't working. You have to make short-term sacrifices. In court, the first thing a judge asks is, "Does the father work full-time?" If he does and the mother doesn't, game over! It's all to do with the child/children and who can provide the best care. You can't use Adultery when fighting for a child, it makes no difference...that's a separate matter, ie: divorce. The whole case is based upon cafcass recommendations. They visit you at home, check out the house, observe you and your child together and interview you over 6 months. They forward their findings to a court and a judge makes the decision. Cafcass are notorious for their discrimination against males. I was very fortunate and very proud! :)

~It's a maze for rats to try, it's a race for rats to die.~

No Yan, you weren't working at the time, so no you didn't make any sacrifice. Your wife just left you and your child, end of. It would be easy enough to locate the original thread.
If the local authorities still felt the need to come and watch you with your chils that says more about the perception of you as a suspect failure than anything else.
It's not difficult to get custody of a child if your the only one who wants custody or if the other partner just left you to it for a while, unless you're a drug addict or something else deemed unsavoury, just being a man doesn't fit this.

The only voice missing now in this lively debate is the actual child. Hopefully he/she will sign up and we'll get the full picture. :)

Spoken like a true veteran time traveler.

It's no wonder you despise yourself Colin.
Give up the booze and try Skunk!

or pour petrel over yourself. what a nasty piece of work you are.

What you on about Pissful? Why's that so nasty. I say credit where credit's due, and someone going into a lengthy, 'yeah pat me on a back' type ramble when it's not the case is sad. What concerns me is Yan's self-esteem, he needs confronting about how he's deluding himself. It really is not healthy for a child to be raised by someone with such obvious problems. If your best bet in life is to reap praise where it's unduly given then that's rather sad.
But hey wait, where would the likes of the X Factor be without people boosting and praising those who don't deserve it be, who would we all laugh at when they humiliate themselves live on TV because nobody's told them straight?
Let me guess Pissful, you're a social worker, recently sacked from a North London Borough.

Minnesota to the Gulf of Mexico.

On the subject of housing I got a reply from Grant Schapps (shadow hosuing for the Tories). This is a bit long winded but if you're interested read on...

I wrote as follows:

I am writing to you (as Shadow Housing Minister) since I am a council tenant of a London Borough and I am concerned about my future ability to buy my home.

I have just spent some time carefully reading your party’s recently published papers on housing. I was pleased to note that the Conservative party, who will almost certainly be in government by next year have expressed an intention to extend right to buy. The policies outlined such as the qualifying time for a discount moving with tenants, schemes to improve mobility and rewarding tenants with an equity stake are all very welcome. However, I saw no explicit policy in respect of the current nominal caps on the right-to-buy (RTB) discount. I would expect and hope this is something that will be swiftly amended under a Conservative government.

If the right-to-buy is to be extended, it will only enable me to buy my home if the cap on the discount is removed. The £16,000 cap imposed by John Prescott in 2003 was opposed by the Tories and David Davis, the shadow deputy prime minister at the time pointed out that Mr Prescott was destroying a popular policy and depriving those on low incomes of the chance to get on to the property ladder. This cap on the discount has been in force when property prices have risen dramatically. At the peak of the market, this discount translated to less than 8% of the value of my home and became insignificant given the acute dissonance between the nominal value of the remaining 92% and my modest but hard-earned salary. Like countless other people, I see little point in shared ownership which has significant drawbacks and I wish to either own outright or remain as a tenant.

There was nothing wrong with the original formula of 50% discount after 20 years tenancy and 35% discount after 5 years. If the government was able to restore or even extend these discounts, more tenants can become responsible homeowners. By expressing the maximum discount simply as a percentage, it will enable council tenants to exercise their RTB with a discount proportionate to fluctuations in the housing market. Under the Labour government, home ownership became a pipe-dream for too many people. If I were awarded a 10% equity stake which could count as my deposit and I received a 35% discount on the total property value, there is a real possibility I could afford to buy, especially if the overheated market continues to cool.

I realise that there is opposition to RTB from the left, but for those like me on average incomes, it is the greatest opportunity for social mobility coupled with the greater personal autonomy that home ownership affords.

Many thanks for your kind attention.

Their Reply:

Many thanks for your email to Grant Shapps MP regarding your experiences and your views on the Right to Buy for social housing tenants. Grant has asked me to thank you for your email and asked me to respond on his behalf.

Your experience is an all too common one. There are tenants all over the country who might, with the right level of support, be able to move from social housing to home ownership. It was with this in mind that Grant announced proposals that would allow tenants with a proven track record of good behaviour to apply for a 10% equity stake in their home.

This would provide tenants with a financial stake in their community and could yield a cash sum when the tenant exits the social sector. The Green Paper that Grant launched last month, Strong Foundations, also contained a pledge to secure the Right to Buy for tenants moving within the social sector.

Specifically on the subject of RTB discounts, Grant shares your concerns about the level of discounts. In recent weeks he has asked a number of questions on the subject in Parliament.

When the discounts for RTB sales were reduced in 41 areas, as part of the Housing (Right to Buy) (Limits on Discount) (Amendment) Order 2003, the Government promised to keep discount levels ‘under constant review’, but have done no such thing despite large fluctuations of both average house prices and the rate of inflation generally. When Grant asked about this very subject he was told by the Minister that ‘the Government have no plan to review the maximum limits on Right to Buy discounts’. See http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmhansrd/cm090427/text...

A lot has changed since the Government altered the maximum discounts – house prices are 39 per cent higher and £16,000 in 2003 is now worth less than £14,000.

The Government’s position on this matter betrays its inherent contempt for the Right to Buy scheme which is based predominantly on political expediency rather than the best outcomes for tenants.

Labour appears to want to keep people in social housing even when a tenant like yourself tries hard to achieve home ownership. Conservatives are committed to offering as many social housing tenants as possible an opportunity to get on the housing ladder.

It’s worth noting that the Government’s flagship scheme on this front, Social Homebuy, has limited support from local authorities (just seven are signed up) and fewer than 100 properties were sold under the scheme last year.

I can assure you that this is an issue that Grant will continue to raise with Ministers. He is a passionate believer in extending the opportunity of home ownership to all those wishing to get a foot on the housing ladder.

Thanks again for getting in touch. Please don’t hesitate to contact Grant again in the future if there is anything else you would like to discuss.

Best regards...

I hear that the Conservatives are thinking of proposing that the government give houses away free - for as long as they are in opposition :O)

The reason I think the tories are serious about RTB is not for the reasons they give but that it is money in the coffers at a time when they will seriously need it. They can't get any money from selling council stock if tenants can't afford to buy outright (and refuse to buy a stake)(it also reduces housing maintenance costs at local level). My new home may have been valued at 300k at the peak. I think prices in London will fall 40% from peak so that's a value in a couple of years time of 180k. 35% RTB discount from that is 117k which I can easily afford. A house costs around 80k to build so they can build (or subsidise) a replacement and have money left over.

The question is, will they replace the stock they sell off? Failing to do this in the past is the cause of some current problems (not RTB per se).

jude

You know, better than most, how dire the economy really is, Jude.
It's hard to guess how bad things will get but I'm expecting extended families to be forced to live together again.
It might turn out to be for the best in the long run -
but it will be a difficult journey.

My parents still have two adult children living with them (and one at university) and since unemployment will hit the 18-30 age group hardest (and these are the people most likely to be in negative equity and saddled with unaffordable mortgages) , this will become more common. What we'll see more of, as you say is children with children moving in with parents and there being three generations under one roof(I also agree it may have positive points despite being hard). For me personally, I have learned to get along with my parents but not to the extent I could live with them and for whatever reason, there are people like me for whom returning to the safety net of mum and dad isn't an option. As stormy says I really should be grateful that I have an affordable home and today I am.

As you say, I don't think most people really appreciate how bad things actually are. Talk of 'green shoots' about this 'dead cat bounce' in both houses and shares is astonishing when the fundamentals indicate we're not even half way through, but people believe what they want to believe
and my generation in particular is financially illiterate. Still, there's always one last sucker rally to trap the last few bulls!

Back to the subject of the baby boomers, I also post regularly on an ecomomics forum and one of my colleagues over there pointed out that the debt bubble, fiat money, housing crisis and all the other components of a shameful legacy are not due to the boomers being any more selfish than my generation but simple by virtue of demographics - there are so many of them (that's why they're called baby boomers) that's why these problems (which are actually endemic in the system) went critical with this generation.

jude

Nice rant Jude.

I'm a baby boomer. Wasn't a hippie, but my kids fancy that I was. I think the total hippie population back then would have been less than 5% of the population of grown people, and more or less a construct of the press and sensationalism of the time. Back then, we blamed the state of the world on our parents generation. Seems like some things never really change.

I did and still do like the Beatles though. Is that okay?

Visit me http://www.have-camera-will-travel.com/

Hey Denver. I feel so much better after the rant...resentment is almost purged and replaced with a warm feeling of contentment! I am a Beatles fan and a Rolling Stones fan. I also like the Kinks (although that might be a Brit thing). I think a lot of the hippie sub-culture went mainstream. My parents weren't hippies but we accused them of it when my uncle showed me a photo of my father in a kaftan!

I think we tend to have a very idealistic notion of the past (especially if we weren't there) and my fanciful imaginings of London in the swinging sixties are probably a little rose tinted. And though my parents could afford a nice house in Surrey (thats a county in Southern England deemed to be quite posh) as others on this thread have pointed out, they couldnt afford much else (hand-me-down clothes, no holidays etc.).

London in the nineties was quite cool as well as being affordable. We (eight students) were renting a three storey town house in Kilburn (North London) . My room was so massive (my share of the rent was about £45 a week) it has probably been converted into a studio flat now. I've gone off Oasis a bit but I still have happy memories.

Another generation X neologism:
Now Denial: To tell oneself that the only time worth living in is the past and that the only time that may ever be interesting again is the future.

jude

I personally learned to let go of the past and to not to worry about the future. Discontentment causes too many problems in the present. I call it Dog Logic. All there is is now, don't screw it up.

Beatles, Stones, Kinks.... no doubt about them being British, but all were and are still part of culture and I don't actually recall thinking of them as being a British thing, though everybody knew they were British. Now, we did look at a few musical icons as being a San Francisco thing or Southern thing.

London today is quite cool. Most things today are quite cool.

As John Prine once wrote...

Blow up your TV
Throw away your paper
Move the country
Build you a home.

Hope you're well though, and glad to see you're still kicking over here.

Visit me http://www.have-camera-will-travel.com/

Born at the end of '46. I remember food stamps.

"It's not difficult to get custody of a child if (sic) your the only one who wants custody..."

I was taken to court, GodAlmighty. My ex wife took the child with her. ;)

~It's a maze for rats to try, it's a race for rats to die.~