I owe it all to my writing course

Ian McEwan @ UEA he was on the first Malcolm Bradbury taught course: on his own for most of the first year, I believe.

Oh, and NWB went there too, not at the same time, of course.

And, I think, Kazuo Ishiguro is a UEA man. And Joe Dunthorne, of course.

So that's who he is!

I would be afriad that I'd spend three years learning to write like David Lodge or Malcolm Bradbury, and who'd want that?

I wonder whether McEwan (Ewan's scottish cousin?) and Ishiguro would have written anyway? I think they would. Would they have written as well? If the course improved their writing, was that down to the tuition, or simply having three years to do nothing but read and write?

My answer is, not exactly. Now if the sixteen-line poem conformed to the literary establishment's (arbitrary) definition of a sonnet and it was good, would it be better than the good almost sonnet? It would be harder to do, wouldn't it? I know that your rebuttal will be, so what? Or what's the point?

What about the hundreds of quasi-sonnets composed (and declared sonnets because the writer says so), that are - ahem - crap?

Equally, for myself. I'm not going to fall over myself to praise any amount of perfectly scanned and rhymed ABBA-ccaddabbara if the poem is crap.

I think it's perfectly okay to subvert poetry forms, I would ask someone to defend it in the interest of talking about poetry. I'm often discouraged from doing this because it inevitably comes down to 'because I say it is.'

Unfortunately, people start to write - for example, a sonnet - and then give up as it's too difficult. And it is difficult. I would respect them more if they said... I started trying to write a sonnet, but I couldn't get it to work and so I've got this. Or if they made no claims for it all. It might still be good.

Ha tricked me there, now people just think I'm a loon!! :-)

I think they would have written anyway. But it might have taken them longer to be any good. I also think they are very distinct writers. They don't read like each other, or Bradbury and Lodge, do they?

Sorry, I edited my post.

I think we're on the same side, Ewan. A good poem is good because it's good, not because it's a sonnet. Isn't that what you're saying too? But you'd say that writing a traditional sonnet is better because more difficult? And preferable to writing something that isn't a traditional sonnet, but claiming it's a modern non-sonnet sonnet?

If I've summed it up correctly, I don't see much to argue with.

I've started several sonnets and never managed to finish one. They are indeed difficult!

I seem to have stepped into your shoes, Ewan. A year ago, you were always quetioning why you wrote. These days you seem to have reached a truce with yourself. Now it's my turn to worry about what it's all for!

Any failed sonnets I have, I try do other things with/to; some even turn into short stories.

I still ask myself that, but now I've got an answer: it's not great philosophy and some days it contains hubris and others humility. The answer is 'because I can.'

Don't you sometimes wonder whether it's all a bit self-indulgent? But maybe it should be? - it's a hobby, after all.

"And preferable to writing something that isn't a traditional sonnet, but claiming it's a modern non-sonnet sonnet?"

L9 7AL

Oh yes, it's not something for grown-ups. Self-indulgent? What harm does it do? Except to editors...

I think if I remember not to take it too seriously, than that's okay.

Okay, my sat nav has guided me to L9 7AL. I'm at Edge Hill University. To my left is a penguin. Straight ahead I see an open door. Should I enter?

I remember those text adventures, I used to type in swear words...

Maybe you've just come across an new one, called
'FAZAKERLEY'

T. 'nos grandes' Fazakerley?

Just short of cash.
Have we been too rash?
With the credit crunch
There’s no free lunch

Cor, wish I could write like that!

There is a saying in England - Them as can, do. Them as can't, teach. Everyone else is a critic.
Carole

But the teachers on those courses are writers so 'them as can...' doesn't really work. I was accepted on a writing course at Bath Uni many years ago but didn't go because I was pregnant and leaving my partner at the time. I think it sounds brilliant sitting about reading and writing all day. Think about all the good support you get here - maybe it would be like that magnified. You should go for it.

A writing course should be to help you make sense of what you mean, like putting your idea into words that make sense to other people & giving them a share in your mind-works, for me, english language not literature, maybe I use a thesaurus sometimes. I believe it is imagination, & a different way of thinking, that truley makes a writer. So it's not self-indulgent atall if other people can enjoy your writing too. I sometimes feel the need to write something down or draw it or record song & luckily usually I can, just remember, there are creatives who are stuck with it inside them, driving them mad. O for something to make a mark on & with or even the ability to write & language. I certainly don't think a course would help you FTSE100. Kahdai x

"But the teachers on those courses are writers so 'them as can...' doesn't really work."

They are not making a living from writing or they wouldn't be teaching.

It is writing about what you know, about real things that really capture the imagination. This cannot be taught. Although there are tricks one can pick up; like short sentences conveying drama etc. But one can pick these things up from reading well-written books.

Perhaps if you go on a really good course like the UEA one, or if you do it full time...if, like me, you attempted to do a part time Creative Writing MA at your local college-turned-uni (because what with work and kids and lack of money and so forth you haven't got other options) you may well find it's a money making exercise for the college, the teacher has published even less than you have, anyone who applied and could spell their name got on it, and it nearly put you off writing for a good twelve months.

Not that I'm bitter. Or a number of hundreds of pounds worse off.

I agree that reading good is really the best way to learn to write.

Poor you. Sounds awful.

I think I'm right in saying that John Osborne who wrote "Look back in anger" attended a writing course or enrolled in a correspondence course in writing.

I'm not so sure about 'them as can't do teach'....look at Burgess, Nabokov, Kingsley Amis, Denis Johnson....and others...

That old saying, "Those who can, do . . ." is a bit of a red herring.

The fact is some successful writers simply cannot explain what they do, and some less successful writers make fantastic teachers.

One example of the latter is Robert McKee. He has had only limited success as a scriptwriter, but his Story Seminar is just unbelievably awesome, attracting praise from some of the biggest names in Hollywood.

I myself have attended it and can vouch for its awesomeness. I picked up at least three big tips and lots of minor ones that have helped me in my writing.

McKee is a great presenter, analyser and explainer, but interestingly, not a brilliant writer. His book based on his Story Seminar is in my humble opinion not particularly readable.