Metropolitan police confirm that officers shot a man at Stockwell Tube

If he was a terrorist and they stopped him blowing up innocent people - then they did a good thing. They would have captured him if they thought it was safe to do so - better a live suspect than a dead terrorist. The police on the ground had to make the decision, and right or wrong, we must support them. Personally, if the police are shouting at me to Stop! And I'm carrying a rucksack and running into a tube station, I shouldn't really complain if I get shot.

Of course, the guy might not have understood English. There used to be a very popular reality TV show in Japan about a Japanese guy in the US and the problems he had because of his broken English. Sometimes it can be serious, though, as in the case where a totally innocent Japanese tourist was walking away from the front door of a house where he'd rung the bell to ask for directions. No one came to the door so he left. Well, as bad luck would have it, the police arrived at that point, guns pulled, and yelled at him to 'Freeze!" The guy understood some English but had no idea what that was all about, so he just walked toward the cops, presumably to ask what the fuss was all about. They shot him. This was back in the mid-90s. I asked the Polish guys in the office here if they would have known what "Freeze!" was supposed to mean, and none of them had a clue, even though they knew what the word meant. Then again, you'd think having several cops pointing guns at you and screaming would suggest that not running would be a good idea (for an innocent person). In this case, it appears that they cops had been following this guy. It will all come out eventually.

Specialist officers had been tailing the man shot at Stockwell Tube station from his home, says Sky News Crime Correspondent Martin Brunt.Police believed the Asian man was responsible for an attempted attack on the nearby Oval Tube on Thursday and had set up surveillance on him.Brunt said officers had followed the man from his home and that the initial plan was to arrest him. But from his home to Stockwell Tube, events overtook police and marksmen were forced to shoot. Despite temperatures of around 22C (72F), officers and witnesses said the man was wearing a heavy coat under which it was feared may have been a bomb. Brunt said: "Intelligence officers had suggested he was the bomber from Thursday. "Officers were confronted with the very real possibility that this man did have a bomb." Initial examinations though, said Brunt, did not discover any explosives on the suspect. ------------------- NOT GOOD

"NOT GOOD" yeah, well rather them having to make that decision than me. if they'd not shot him and he blew up 100 people, the police would still be vilified. a guy i know is an armed response officer and he has so much specialist training it is unreal. they're not cowboys, they're good at a fuckin impossible job.

Police have just released 4 images of the men they want to interview in connection with yesterday's events. Um--------then this is a fifth man. And no bomb found. Oh dear. Let's hope he was involved in some way.

i just looked at the photos ... the one on the bus is interesting ... if you look behind him the bus is totally empty ... what was he doing? ... that's hardly professional suicide bombery is it? ... setting off a faulty device in a bus with no passengers on it? hmm ...

"setting off a faulty device in a bus with no passengers on it?" Whilst this may seem odd, I see examples of such ineptitude on a daily basis. He ought to further his career as a high street bank cashier, a mortgage advisor or a customer services executive in the retail industry. He'll go far.

I agree that no one wins in war (apart from arms manufacturers) but there are more desirable and less desirable results. It's not my hysteria that starts wars. I haven't supported any of the wars the British government's got involved in since I was old enough to vote. But I don't accept that Polish attacks on cargo officials were a significant factor in the starting of the war. As I pointed out above, the invasion of Poland was one of series of invasions. Hitler did have a plan and I don't think even he would've claimed it was essentially based on self-defence.

re-reading this thread quote "One would think...given the current situation with the London subway system, that people would be intelligent enough to not carry a rucksack. Maybe a grocery bag would be a suitable alternative or something. A small laundry bag , one of those fishnet types with the pullstring, so's not to alarm the observers." was that sarcasm????

Not in the least. I was quite serious. I don't consider this a joking topic personally.

I'd rather be shot than seen with a net bag in public.

There's a middle way between 'the West' being responsible for everything that's currently going wrong in the world and it having no respobsibility at all. For example, the actions of the victorious powers after the first world war went a long way towards creating the conditions that enabled the rise of Hitler. That's not to say they were responsible for the policies of Hitler, he would've been evil nutcase whatever happened but, if it hadn't been for the Treaty of Versailles and its effects on the German economy, it's a lot less likely that he would've ended up as the leader of the country. Many people who voted for Hitler were more concerned about the fact that they had no job and their country had lost all self-respect than in creating a world dominated by an aryan master race. Similarly with the current situation. The Iraq war and the situation in Palestine aren't responsible for making Al Qaida and their fellow travellers pursue the line they're pursuing. But these things do create a situation where many people, Muslims and others, who don't support a violent jihad or extreme sharia law have the generally negative impression of 'the West', particularly the US and its foreign policy priorities. That means that while the number of people who actually actively support the Bin Laden agenda ought to be small enough to be containable, containing terror is made far more difficult by the large numbers of people who are ambivalent about the bigger picture.

yes, a net bag would be uber vile

Hahaha. You could try a Lord and Taylor or Gucci bag.

i take your point (and I add a little gold leaf and some rococo cherubs in plaster relief then present it framed in silk) but ambivalence does not a mass murder make let alone a suicide bomber.

Or a 'Brown Bag'

gasp ... jt are you suggesting liana should wear a brown bag on her head when she travels in public??

Is liana a two bagger?

definitely not! Liana is gorgeous and I'd have her if I wasn't straight. (for those who don't know, a double bagger is an ugly human and to have sex with them requires two bags. One to put over their head and one to put over yours in case theirs falls off.)

If I describe this event as collateral damage you'd be rightly offended. This is the kind of wordplay used in our press to describe the 100.000 or so innocent victims of our bombing Iraq. No wonder the Moslems are pissed off. There will be no peace until there is a Palestinian state, and even then it's going to be hard going.

I can second that!...(that she is lovely, not the if I were straight part!)

leave her alone, she's mine. and yes she is luverley, oh yes.

well of course, so it's ALL our fault. WE created every conflict in the world and we're to blame for everything and the rest of the world are just peace loving innocents that we're killing for a laugh because we're evil despots. We walked into a peaceful Iraq just as Saddam was stroking a peasant's dog and commenting on his hydrangers and shot everyone into next week because we're a bunch of murderous bastards. We not only pissed the muslims off but told them to kill each other all over the world and it's us that are actually doing all the suicide bombings all over the middle east, not someone else, how could it be? we're the only twats out there. Tony blair is satan, the illuminati run the world and we're all corruption and greed personified so we should all go back to hell in a hand cart. Of course, it IS our fault, so if there are any terrorists reading this then please come over and bomb the shit out of us because we deserve it, good on ya, fair play and all that.

Oh dear. No, fish, I was suggesting carrying things in a brown bag. Actually, in the US someone had the 'clever' idea of selling shopping bags that were simply brown paper. The were all printed Brown Bag on the side. I guess the joke doesn't travel well.

aw, i feel all warm... i didnt actually know what a double bagger is, but I'm glad I'm not one. You still ok for brewery open day tomorrow camus? Ive been drinking pimms in the garden all afters... yum.

Oh yes...definitely ready for brewery...the question should be is the brewery ready for us? What time are you picking me up ms taxi lady?

And the killing will continue because all men are animals and are no more emotionally mature than their prehistoric ancestors. It's ultimately a question of who can kill the most. Oh, They aren't very nice, lets go kill some of them. Ohhh, they want to kill us, we better kill them first. Oh, why are they mad at us, maybe we did something wrong. Ohhh, too bad, see what happens when you want to kill us. Oh, screw that, kill more of them. Ohhh, they are sub-human creatures, kill them all. Oh, don't kill me, I didn't kill anyone. Ohhh, kill the breeders, it's their fault. Oh, Oh, Oh.... Golly...sure are a lot of dead people. But that's okay, we are safer when we kill them. Well, if they are going to kill us, we're just not going down without killing as many of them as we can along the way. Isn't this fun. No...but they are killing us. Well, they killed us first. No... you were killing us first. Ahhh, excuse me, you started the killing. Fuck you, you started it. Fuck you, asshole. Bastards Kill them all, let god sort them out. Everybody needs to worship something. Most will kill to protect their own stupid thoughts.

Looking like the London police killed an innocent man. I thought these things were only supposed to happen in the US.

If so, it will not be the first time the London police have shot the wrong man, Denver. I can remember that they shot someone in a mini who was supposed to be armed and dangerous - but it turned out to be mistaken identity... someone who looked a bit like him. Probably not a good time to get a deep tan if you live in London.

We had an incident here in Denver a couple of years ago. The police stormed a house late one night and killed a guy as he got out of bed. Turned out they had the wrong house and the guy was some poor Mexican transient working in the US and sending money back to his family in Mexico. They tried to cover it up by saying he had a gun, that was in fact a beer can on the table next to his bed. The poor guy was here legally and had never done a thing to anyone and by all accounts was a very good family man. This is why we have laws that protect us from unreasonable search, so we think. If a citizen or group of citizens did something like this, the police and legal system would have field day on them. When the police do it, they blow it off as "just doing our job." The brain rot that causes this type of thing is one of the primary reasons it exists. The arrogance and ignorance of authority. 1st rule of survival...never arm idiots. "Calling it your job old hoss, sure don't make it right." John Mellencamp

Anyone want to swap a rancid british passport for a gun? Going. Going. Gone.

As I said in an earlier post, you have to support the police. They are not the gun-toting shoot first ask questions later types you get in the US, these are Policemen specially trained to use firearms in a British Police force that doesn't want guns. Mistakes will happen. Why was he running? Why was he wearing a thick coat on a hot day, why did he run of all places into a tube station? Had the guy not watched the news for the last week? Sad that it happened, but if the police officers are prosecuted, you will end up with Police in this country refusing to carry guns at all. You will get no officers to deal with gun incidents. But that won't stop all the police and government haters coming out in force to hijack this incident for their own anti-government/police ends.

"A measured and proportionate response" according to Peter Hain. "The police are not above the law" according to an expert witness on the BBC. I hope I misunderstood Peter Hain, otherwise he is an even bigger imbecile than I give him credit for. As for police not being above the law, aren't they supposed to be the law? This seems to me hysteria of the very worst kind. What is called for here is a leader who says "OK Stop! Let's all calm down" not a leader who says snub your noses but be outraged. Otherwise this tragedy will be repeated very soon. And I fear the backlash will be worse. And then, to put it in words that the PM and others like him understand, the terrorists will have "Won". Something has been really niggling away at me since July 7th and finally Decca Aitkenhead in the Guardian has enlightened me. Britain seems to be relishing the fact that it is now in the "Al Qaida Club" - we keep referring to "our 9/11" and "our Madrid". The fact is that on 7 July I felt a certain sense of relief (sorry if this offends anyone) because the spectacular they had been promising us had finally happened and it wasn't half as bad as it could have been (that is not to detract from the horror of what happened but we are talking less than 100 fatalities which is a blessing, albeit disguised). I suspect though that others in positions higher than mine may be feeling a sense of relief that isn't quite so innocent, and being "in the club" may cause them to do very dangerous things - not at all the "measured and proportionate response" that I would be looking for. That said, I am very impressed with Ian Blair. Think he would make a much better PM.

I totally agree Rachel, I have posted before about Ian Blair. His responses are always well measured and calm and lack the patronising edge that is present in PM Blair's speechs. He is also able to answer questions on the hoof a damn sight better than Blair and the majority of his cronies.

And besides, both Blair's can easily ratify murder as an act of national necessity ... fucken great, just what the world needs right now ... another brainless fuckwitt in control of gung-ho meglomaniacs with guns and bombs... Jezzzussss! So who's next to die, women with handbags or obese children? Get a grip you lot ... this is all bullshit! Btw...They've just bombed Eygpt too: so now the game gets very serious ... just watch! Danny Elfman... what a man

who's next to die... please dear god make it the twat above

"If so, it will not be the first time the London police have shot the wrong man, Denver." No, but it is the first time, in my memory that they've shot someone without really even knowing who they think he is, failing to even identify him to the nearest continent of origin. While I certainly wouldn't want to see the individual officers - who have an immensely difficult and very frightening job to do - scapegoated for this incident there needs to be some clarification of the broad policy that they have been ordered to follow. If the policy is to shoot to kill anyone who runs from police and is very scared when five blokes with guns come up behind him, there's going to be a lot of killings over the next few months. People who've been flogging dodgy electrical goods at the local market often run from police. While the killing of identified named targets and people proved to be associating with them can - in the current situation - be unpleasant but appropriate, killing anyone who might be a terrorist is insane.

I shouldn't worry so David, I get the feeling you won't ever have to make that sort of decision. Be thankful for that.

The policies of police in this country seem to me, misguided. An officer is trained to protect himself at all costs. If he feels threatened, he may kill the threatening person. End result, we have officers shooting 8 year olds holding butter knives. This engrained policy regarding the use of deadly force has to be changed along with the training and supervision of the police. The police are walking about with loaded weapons and are by far the single most deadly individuals amongst us in mass. An officer must be trained to risk his life to protect an innocent, something they aren't willing to do at the moment. I could disarm, without injury a 8 year old holding a butter knife, 100 out of 100 times. The police, will shoot him 100 out of 100 times. This all goes back to the "protect and serve" slogan, plastered about so freely upon our police vehicles. It's a lie. The police can't protect you. They can at best, solve a crime after it's occured.

It's always the way: both sides killing innocent people and claiming it was necessary - as the divide gets ever wider and the fear and hatred grow.

There are no 'sides' and Jean Charles de Menezes, like the rest of us, never killed anyone. That may change, I am a very, very reasonable person and I have had enough of this. Our lives were rendered unliveable a long time ago by the actions of governments you pay and sustain while they get on with the 'business as usual' of slaughtering anyone who shows signs of life. Carry on playing dead you english voters, it won't help you.

"I shouldn't worry so David, I get the feeling you won't ever have to make that sort of decision." I'm not sure I'm with you, Tim. I share you're feeling that I'm unlikely to ever be employed as a police marksman. Even if I had the bottle to do it, I'd never have the hand-eye co-ordination necessary. But the broader issue is a pretty serious matter of public debate which doesn't have a clear right or wrong answer. At one extreme you could have armed police on every bus and every extrance to every tube station taking out anyone they reckon looks a bit dodgy. At the other extreme you could say that the police should never carry guns under any circumstances. The decision about which point between these two extremes we actually end up with isn't just a cold, logical professional decision for the chief of police and defence experts. The experts can outline a series of courses of action and say: "if we do this, this when predict that this will happen and if we don't this, this won't happen but that probably will." The government decides the basis on which the police act. If they didn't, this wouldn't be a democracy. And what the government decides about that is just as much a worry for me as it for anyone else.

either there's something we're not bieng told here or it's the most bizarre set of unlucky coincidences you could imagine. The man was leaving a house already listed as associated with bombers. what are the chances of that? He THEN decides, for no good reason, to wear a large thick jacket on a hot day. He THEN decides, as he's an electrician, to carry loose open cables UNDER his jacket with exposed wire ends sticking out from below. He THEN decides to take the tube (nothing wrong there) but when told to stop by armed police in bullet proof flack jackets the DAY AFTER bomb attempts have been made on the tube he fully understands the command (he had an excllent grasp of English) and yet VAULTS the barriers to dive onto a train that was just about to leave. THis isn't a case of 'shoot anyone who runs from the police' and to make such assumptions about the officers involved who DID have to make that decision is an insult. If it's a case of mistaken identity then that's tragic but given all the details above, if I were a police officer I'd have shot him because that's too much info (albeit now proven to be merely conicidental) to ignore. panic this AINT. it has been proven that anyone faced with a gun or a similar threat, regardless of guilt, will pretty much always freeze on the spot. Never mind people who've sold a bit of dodgy gear down the market and dont want their collar felt. If five armed cops pointed a gun at Del Trotter he'd freeze to the spot. You point a gun at someone and he decides to run then you've got something serious on your hands.

God you're so cute when you're disingenuous Ely. But you do finally get it. As an ex-colonial power that went around the world killing people willy-nilly, and still doing it! I can only say in that wonderful American phrase - 'What goes around comes around.' And strangely enough I'm in agreement with RadioDenver. If we wanted to, we could wipe Arabia (Sorry colonialist word there) from the map. Unfortunately Israel would disappear too in the nuclear holoclaust. We'd also have to take out Indonesia and its huge population of Muslims. There is a precedence, think Hiroshima and Nagasaki although very small beer (No mine's a big one) in comparison. That's why I said either on this thread or another one, do you think for a minute that America and its allies or Israel on its own will allow Iran to develop nuclear capability? Iran's next. Watch this space. [%sig%]

I can still remember the mobile germ warfare facility that we discovered in Iraq - eventually turned out to be an old meals on wheels van... but it was very unhygenic :o)

Co-incidentally, not being an electrician, I also have cables under my jacket - it's called a personal stereo and runs from my pants pocket to the control clipped to the neck of my T-shirt. I often don't put the ear-phones bits in until I'm ready to listen to some music... I've noticed recently that lots of other people have got one too.

*sends email with slimeys address to the met*

HAhahaha - I wondered if you'd bother to organise a post from the UK :o)

well unless you strip the earpieces off and leave the exposed copper ends hanging out AND unless you happen to live, unbeknownst (that can't be a real word surely!) to you in a house already under heavy surveillance by the anti terror police AND unless you wear heavy jackets in the middle of summer AND unless you're the type to jump a turnstyle when faced with several armed police, I don't see the coincidence at all.

It will probably turn out that half the houses in London are under surveillance, that the guy was late for an appointment and wearing a coat for the pockets. He was also wearing a personal stereo (the police did not notice the earpieces at the time) playing quite loudly and didn't hear the police challenge. Seeing his train pull in he jumped the turnstyle and was jumped on and shot and so will never know how dangerous it is not to queue quietly like proper English people do.