Bastards versus New Men

well, don't wish to elaborate Fish, but as you insist...re: your comment about romanticising people...(guilty)... i was gettin' to know a fella once, lasted about three years. He was a singer and reminded me very much of Van Morrison (oh my god, it was a long time ago) Anyway, i think he actually WAS Van Morrison...with a terrible drink problem to boot. Thankfully he went off with someone else eventually. It hadn't even occurred to me before but that is what I have often done in the past. It's so unfair all 'round and I can think of many more examples!

i have done it countless times too tan ... it means the relationship turns into just a discovery of what the person really is and how they then don't match your expectations ... it's all doomed to failure as it also operates in the reverse too and you find yourself prey to THEIR expectations and bound to fail ... i find tho it is very difficult to let go of these habitual responses ... like mykle says ... the games we play ... but if you find someone who is prepared to challenge those things in both themselves and you then i like to believe there is hope however we might stumble along the way ... my greatest weakness i think is the desire to scupper my own happiness ... i seem to go to great lengths to achieve this ... this is self fulfilling in a way i think ... and something to do with how much i believe i don't deserve it ...

Hi Fish - good to have you back. I was meditating last night and it seemed to me that there was a seperate part of me that was waiting for permission to feel good! It just wanted me to say - don't worry little one you are fine, I love you and like you, feel free to shine. Often there is a part of us that doesn't feel 'worthy' and yet that part is often the best, nicest part. I know quite a few women who choose 'rats, and 'weasels' because they feel that is what they deserve and at least they can feel that they are in some way superior. Perhaps 'swines' love themselves too much and the rest of us don't love ourselves enough!

Yes, yes, all true, I'm sure of it..Time to get rid of that self-loathing and self-scuppering...where the hell does it all come from? P'raps it's just an aid to growth, it surely must count for something.

well if i knew how i could write a marvellous self help book and make a mint and everyone could be happy ... HOWEVER ... i also think there is a painful comfort to be had in the familiar ... which is why we play out the same story over and over ... go for the same types ... make the same mistakes and then sit back and say "there ... i told you so ..." ... the answer MIGHT be in taking responsibility for ourselves ... what bothers me about mykle's comment is that it seems to place all the responsibilty with the woman for choosing the weasel or whatever because she doesn't think she is worthy of anything better ... surely it can't just operate in this direction? ... i cant be comfortable with the thought that it is the woman who is always the hapless victim in the transaction ... there are foul and nasty people of both genders ... what about men? ... they must be self scuppering and self loathing etc. mustn't they? and to return to wolfie's original thread slightly (after hijacking it for hours .. sorry wolfie) ... where are the female equivalents to the bastard etc?

I though the girls might enjoy this little tech request I found in my Email... Dear Tech Support, Last year I upgraded from Boyfriend 5.0 to Husband 1.0 and noticed a slowdown in the overall performance, particularly in the flower and jewelry applications that had operated flawlessly under Boyfriend 5.0. In addition, Husband 1.0 un-installed many other valuable programs, such as Romance 9.5 and Personal Attention 6.5, but installed undesirable programs such as NFL 5.0 and NBA 3.0. Now Conversation 8.0 no longer runs and House Cleaning 2.6 simply crashes the system. I've tried running Nagging 5.3 to fix these problems but to no avail. What can I do? Signed, Desperate

Sorry Fish -I thought I made it plain that I suffer from the same problem and I'm sure many other men do too. I only mentioned that I knew several women who chose 'swine' because the topic was about 'bastards' not 'bitches'. I think women are more likely to discuss this sort of topic and so I know more women than men who admit to it.

In my experience repeated failed relationships only tend to reinforce feelings of inadequacy until - as Fish says - it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. You have to learn to love yourself and be self reliant to have any chance of escaping the circle of despair. If you strive to be the best person that you can be then at least you know you have done your best. The Prophet says of Reason and Passion: Your soul is oftentimes a battlefield, upon which your reason and your judgement wage war against your passion and your appetite. Your reason and your passion are the rudder and sail of your soul. If either fail you can be but toss and drift, or else be held at standstill in mid-seas. For reason , ruling alone, is a force confining; and passion, unattended, is a flame that burn to it’s own destruction. The Prophet says of Love: When love beckons to you, follow him, though his ways are hard and steep. When his wings enfold you yield to him, though the sword hidden among his pinions may wound you. When love speaks to you believe in him, though his voice may shatter your dreams. For even as love crowns you so shall he crucify you. Even as he is for growth so is he for your pruning. Even as ascends to your height and caresses your tenderest branches that quiver in the sun - so shall he descend to your roots and shake them in their clinging to the earth. But if in your fear you would seek only love’s peace and love’s pleasure - then it is better for you that you cover your nakedness and pass out of love’s threshing floor. Into that seasonless world where you shall laugh, but not all of your laughter, and weep but not all of your tears.

in the words of a friend of mine: laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaav!

The Prophet deserves better than the tiolet Ari ;-)

our believes can be just as deadly as our knowledge ... new man and new women is a fallacy ... we can never have a true meaning of everything because it is never totally clear what everything is .. now I'm going for a quick dance around my living room their playing my fav... CDs I could do with a glass of decent wine right now ... no more I'd just love to egt really pi.....

I have just tuned in and found a wealth of juicy information that has made me think.....a sprinkling of cynicism but mostly, really sensible and interesting debate. Licks end of pen and begins to write article.... My personal view is that I consciously used to look for the cool, spiky-haired people in black, smoking in a corner at parties. I knew darn well that they were trouble but I could not resist arrogance. Later, when I was more 'together', I laughed at those stereotypes and looked for a little more substance and ultimately, a good heart. I was worth much more and had no need to define myself through a relationship. Calmer water, less seasickness....that 's what I say.

yes, but.. Guilt, like apologising after the event only to repeat it again later, are both a wasted effort. However, there is a place for self-indulgence which, like self-flagellation, serves to stimulate the circulation and performance of the heart, in controlled quantities, 'though it looks pretty silly if anyone else is watching. A little self-indulgence and self-flagellation also prevent that ageing disease called self-righteousness.

Consider me flogged Tan ;-)

I'm laughing. It works better if you do it to yourself 'though but.

Consider me self-abused Tan63. :-)

Are you a Glaswegian Tan?

Wot?. Why? No. Born in Cardiff, moved to Manchester when i was four years. Father Welsh/London, Mother Anglo-Portuguese Asian Indian. Accent..made up. Wherever has Dogstar vanished? Anybody know?

It was the "though but" in your earlier post - I thought it was a Glaswegian phrase but maybe it's Mancurian -anybody know?

Just a quick further word or two then Wolfie.. I think people in general and I'll stick my neck out here.. especially women.. tend to be too reactive when looking for prospective partners.. that is, they are too quick to judge what they like and do not like in people and hence often reject good potential partners in favour of those who 'seem' to already have it all. If a man already has it all.. and he has achieved this without you.. chances are he will find less to value in you and a relationship with you.. I would suggest you are more likely to be successful in a relationship where both partners have played a part in the development of each others material and spiritual wellbeing.. so start with raw material which can be molded rather than a seemingly finished item.. (Vice Versa for men looking for women) It follows that attributes such as honesty, integrity, self awareness, adaptability and forward looking (as opposed to cynicism).. 'a good heart'.. are more important then other status symbols.. Good relationsips ARE created.. they rarely if ever just fall into place when you meet someone new. If you want something good you both have to work at it over time and that means taking responsibility in making it work.. i.e. being self aware about each others negative habitual reactions and changing them.. rather than falling into reactive traps.. ..and when a relationship fails.. both partners have failed.. and both should share EQUAL responsibility for its failure.. and be prepared to move on without the bitterness of allocating blame.. pointless. It is about a personal acceptance for responsibility for All your choices in life.. which then carries unto your relationships with others.. its astounding how we can influence other peoples behaviour for the 'better' by first changing our habitual own.

Scots language in general, rather than a Glezza thing.

I'm afraid i might get the last word here. Oh well. Have to say it seems to me that it is men who are hung-up on (their) material wealth and the importance of that in attracting a mate (hope i haven't misunderstood the first and second paras of above 1leg). P'raps i'm wierd but i can't think of any woman i know who has placed any real importance on a man's material wealth 'though i'm sure such women exist in abundance. I wish these women would carry off all the 'bastards' into the sunset and leave the best for the rest of us. Of course it would be too simplistic to suggest that wealth equals bastardliness but if, like me, a person places little importance on wealth in the first place, i can't help thinking that my openmindedness (goodlooks, goodhumour etc..) should really have served me better. Alas no. Have met an unfair amount of bastards one way or another and never looked for, encouraged or needed it. No need to look far for an explanation; the 'bastard' is alive and well and can be found most anywhere. It's important to learn how to Avoid. Anyway, don't want to sound too negative 'cause i'm not so will just add that changing habitual reactions certainly does seem to be a very, very magical thing with magical consequences.

Thanks Fingers - I thought it was of Scottish origin.

tan63, know I am being a bastard for saying this.. but IMO its too easy to blame all the people one has failed in relationships as bastards.. if nothing it calls to question the basis for ones choices.. and unless one comes to realise this.. repetitive mistakes will occur.. And I was not only refering to wealth in my first two paras.. whatever attributes one tends to find attractive in a person.. bearing in mind people can grow into them with encouragement..

That b-word really is awful. Not going to use it..Yes, sure 1Leg, noone would question some (i never said all) of my choices more than me! Likewise noone is more liable to accept blame than me and that has been part of the problem. An over-developed sense of guilt about failure. But this was all in my past life as an apprentice idiot and alot of things improve with age.

I tried to contact Snideley Whiplash for a comment, but he was out buying moustache wax at that time and has not returned my call. Sorry. :))))

So what was wrong with the prototype Julia? I'm still waiting for the emergence of a 'new woman'! But on the other hand she'd probabaly be much the same as the 'old' one. I think what I'm trying to say is that there is no such thing as a 'new' man or woman, just the same old used to be. Fashions and trends change, people don't.

I'm surprised that the term "new man," or what used to be called the "sensitive new age man" is still in use. This terminology was first used in the U.S. in the mid to late 70s. During the Reagan administration it began a slow death, as evidenced by books such as Real Men Don't Eat Quiche. Ihaven't heard it used in nearly 20 years, except in sociological retrospectives. In my mind it belong to the era of "women's consciousness raising groups." My own view is that the whole notion of a "new man" or "new woman" is nothing more than a fashion statement. Consumerism has conditioned us to acquire beliefs, such as "these shoes make me look sexy, smart, hip, etc." or "this political stance, if repeated often enough, will either become true or at least make me look sexy,smart, hip, etc" So, a magazine columnist creates a "concept of the new man," defines the characterists, some people are already like that and others pretend to be so the can come across as the flavor of the week: sexy, smart, hip. I don't see much substance to the whole thing. It would be much more useful, and a whole lot more entertaining, to examine the process by which writers create cultural myths than to discuss the alleged "substance" of the myths themselves. I look forward to your finished product, Wolf.

what county is Huddersfield in these days by the way Mykle? (I really must start thinking about getting a job.. seem to have got caught in this thread while the debt continues to mount. Oh well, who cares? not me.)

Dear Wolfie, Thinking about that...several questions there..my immediate knee jerk reaction would be to refute the claim that (intelligent) women are more attracted to swineish (?) men. Personally, i never have been. In my experience the men i've been attracted to seem to be sweet and caring etc. etc. in the beginning when they're trying that bit harder..it often takes some months or even years for them to show their true colours. This personality change usually only happens when they've got someone else already lined up..sexual frustration can make a swine of any man, no? Secondly, i don't know where this myth that sweet men are boring came from in the first place..a sweet man will always be vastly more attractive to his alternative and anyone who thinks otherwise must be a masochist to my mind (and many women are..) Sweet and manly are not opposites. It's only the truly manly man who feels comfortable showing how sweet he really is. Sensitive men are definitely not a turn off and also make very good beasts. Anyway, i was going to think about this before replying so i will go off and do that..Intrigued to know what Mississippi's definition of a New Woman might be..

Intrigued? I thought I explained my feeling that there is no such thing as either a new man or woman. I would like to add that your remarks viz a viz men being sweeter when a relationship is new and they are trying harder applies equally to women. When a new guy comes on the scene they can be callous bitches equal to any swine a man may become!

It appears from my perspective that women are more attracted to swine in their youth because hormones are stronger than brain cells: with experience eventually comes discernment (if you’re lucky). Youth is attracted to arrogance and popularity - regardless of character - and it is only later that familiarity breeds contempt. Sensitive men are often shy and less egotistical and therefore less likely to initiate first contact ;-) and bastards are generally more motivated to make the necessary effort. In the end, I think, a happy, easy going, person who likes to share is a lot easier to live with than a sensitive, moody, person - however bright they may be. In later life looks become less important and personality more - and perhaps reliability and other boring considerations become far more important because you just can’t stand another broken heart!

Yes, indeed, to all the above..still thinking

*Tongue in cheek* I thought it ws a plot by the Feminists to effect a role reversal;-)

Different people have different perceptions of what is boring what is not. Which is fair enough. What is wrong, is the politics we create. Creating conformity pressure, placing on others impossible demands, which causes unhappiness. Fashion dictates, yet fashion is empty. You were born into this world naked, and you will leave it naked. So who are you really? Who are you when you're on your own? Who are you when you watch a sunrise? Who is the real you? Masks become uncomfortable after a while. If you where to choose someone for a friend. Who would you choose? the sensitive person; the unsensitive person. and why would you choose this type of person? True beauty comes from within. The moustache twiddling swines may look handsome. The babycham drinking cold hearted models beautiful. But their hearts are rotting poisen. All they seem to think about is one thing - themselves and the gratification of their flesh. They never learn. Their mentality never grows beyond adolescence. They haven't the strength to resist the media hype that is pasted on the billboards, they are trapped in the common illusion of shop window cemetries. Without self-control. They never grow. Never evolve or increase their understanding. Stay the same when they die. They will become hungry ghosts. I would gladly remain single for the rest of my life - developing my spirit and knowledge, than waste my time being like that. So who cares if people think you're boring? Better to be like that; than corrupt and pollute your soul. True strength comes from the mind and spirit within. That is what it means to be a warrior. What does it profit you to gain the whole world but lose your soul?

oh man that is why should never post on threads when you're feeling low. I should write out that and stick it on my computer screen. Am gutted, was meant to be meeting a friend in town, he had this free complimentary ticket for me to go and to watch this opera. Which he was one of the actors in. It was televised and everything. Been given 5/5 by the Gaurdian, 4/5 by The Times. But he's my best mate man, and I really wanted to see him perform. I was really looking forward to it. The bloody train was delayed, and I ended up showing an hour late and he had gone; cause he had to get there on time. Was gutted, today was the last performance, been looking forward to it all week.. am really annoyed about it. so ignore my previous post, I didn't mean to be so heavy and sound like a pharisee. I aint looking down off my high horse or anything. Was just on one. I hate it when I get all intense like that.

i have been a new man, and i have been that selfish lying toerag..i have acted on the adolescent clench of sexual imperative..and sought out the friendships of women and celebrated that particular pleasure..... all in all. i have no idea what men, women, dogs, fleas, are supposed to do. there isn't a manual. love you all martin

i make a plea for neither the bastard nor the new man ... but for the Real Man ... (AND the Real Woman ...)... yes Real People ... who know themselves and don't practise deception ... of themselves or others ... let's have some honesty instead of swallowing whole some concept of how we should BE ... men and women ARE different ... (ho ho give me Stating The Bleedin Obvious Award) ... and ought to be complementary... and i think everyone is more complex than we want to admit ... and capable of being strong, weedy, kind, cruel ... everything ... and surely the point is to meet each other somewhere in between ... we do swallow the stereotypical images and replicate them in our behaviour ... we also absorb clues about how to be from the media and from families etc. so no wonder it is difficult ... the bastard and the new man are both ridiculous stereotypes ... but they DO free people from making clear assessments of themselves and deciding their own behaviours ... honesty isn't the easy option ... but i am not interested in anything less ...

to be honest you need to the other person also to reflect that honesty I agree totally with your stereotyping but as to "free people making clear assessments of themselves and deciding their own behaviours" what about the emotions, the behaviours and how they can cloud the whole footings of a relationship do we decide to love as freely as we think ? and once we give that love .. if that's the emotion that effects our choice of partner .... then what? do our own vulnerabilities become the guise of power struggle between the opposities or for the abuse of one strong personality over another and when we see through the cloud of pretence and see the real person what then .. do we carry on with the make believe and hope it gets better .. after all none of us are perfect does new man and new women exist or are we just looking at the whole process from a different view, to provide ourselves with excuses for the way in which we behave, be it badly or not as the case maybe instead of working at the relationship or just being honest and calling it a day and walking away

Tricky one this - my take on it is this :- in early stage of relationships, women want to appear straightforward and baggage-free, free spirits with no agenda, simple and uncomplicated. Whereas men want to appear deep and complex, probably with painful past that they... don't want to talk about. "I'm complex, and it'll take time for you to get to know me" versus "What you see is what you get". Alison is right, it is much better if you can just be an individual and have people take or leave you for what you are. The dark complicated truth about men is just that somebody finished with them once when they weren't expecting it - big deal, get over it. (He says, despite having used this very approach for significant chunks of his love-life) - I suspect it never fools women.

cor ... blimey P that's a lot to answer ... i agree that the honesty has to go both ways ... but i think i mean if a person rejects the stereotypes then they have a certain freedom to then recognise what it is they really think and feel ... and of course there are all those emotions and whatnot which appear to be ungovernable ... it is very hard to shake off historical behaviours and feelings ... i am VERY aware of this ... we do tend to have expectations of partners based on what we have experienced before ... i think we DO decide to love freely ... and i also see love as a PRACTICAL thing ... it is not purely some wild emotional business ... loving someone is difficult and involves many things such as caring for them and being kind ... i read a great quote the other day which said "the first duty of love is to listen" and i think i agree ... relationships CAN be a power struggle ... but i don't think this is the right way for them to be ... ideally if you are watching out for the other person and they for you then you both get cared for ... the problem you state about seeing the real person and then carrying on is really the nub of the situation ... if we romanticise other people we are not seeing the real person ... we are constructing them to be what we want and of course we will find out that this is not so ... and to recognise them as some kind of stereotype makes this process easier ... it is a shortcut ... in these times where we are free to make sexual relationships almost instantly we don't actually get to know the person first and that is major problem i feel ... and obviously after the romanticising business has worn off and we have recognised they are not what we thought then the temptation is to walk away ... we feel we have been duped whereas we have actually deceived ourselves ... it's all bloody hard and nigh on impossible ... but to start from some platform of wanting to know both yourself AND the other person and being honest has to be a good thing ...

I’ve always found that most people don’t really know what they are like! It sounds silly but a lot of people think - I’m a good person, good people are ..... (what ever they believe constitutes a good person) ... therefore I’m like that. Sounds silly I know but how do YOU go about finding out who you REALLY are???

Huddersfield is in good old Yorkshire but not that far from Manchester Tan. A wag once said that Huddesfield was a car park between Leeds and Manchester - it's a little larger than that but - we don't have a cathedral so we can't be a city: something like that anyway. I don't think it's a good place for jobs though but ;-)

We all know someone who is erevocably bound up with a "Right Bastard" and deserves better. why if I had a pound for every girl i know who is with a bloke who doesn't deserve her I'd have - now let me see, *takes off shoes and socks to help count* £11.25p So there. BTW I'm a nice bloke anyway and you have my permission to tell as many nymphomaniac pneumatic blonde bimbos as you like.

..would like to point out that feeling responsible and feeling guilty are different and do not necessarily have to go together.. taking responsibility is acceptance of ones Part in the situation, forward looking and problem solving.. allocating blame, wallowing in guilt etc are backward looking self indulgent habits that benefit no one.. least of all anyone who has been wronged.

I think that you have to realise that there is the emotional person as well as the thinking person involved in every relationship. The problem is that the emotional aspect of the personality plays well defined games which the thinking person does not understand. If you over-ride the emotional player then it upsets the game - usually making things worse. As an example if you suddenly notice that you are angry in an argument, and try to react in a controlled and thoughtful way, it usually serves, only, to further antagonise the other players. It can even lead to your partner thinking that you don’t really care anymore! Over time you learn to understand how to react to your loved ones in a largely unconscious way - if you change that then it necessitates a re-evaluation, that can be both destructive and extremely painful, and the relationship may not survive the process. Only if both sides are committed to putting in the time, effort and patience necessary to get through this painful process does it become worthwhile. The point is that once you begin to understand a game then it changes the rules and therefore the game and these games are fundamental to most relationships. I recommend “Games People Play” by Eric Burne for an outline of some of the more common games.

No such thing as New Men or New Women - the media and the world in general simply highlights different qualities, such as 'Ooh, look, that guy's staying at home to change nappies, what a guy, why aren't all men like this nowadays?' Or they look at one person and decide that this person's behaviour is setting the trend for everyone's behaviour. Change never lasts - by its very nature, it is eternal and constant. People, on the other hand, rarely, truly, completely change. They 'bloom', or they 'grow up' or 'find their niche'.

Opinions change and in turn change perceptions which change responses and attitudes - which is why we write in the first place.

Guilt is a very negative emotion - in my younger days I used to feel guilty when I got totally ratted and upset everyone - this led to me getting so upset I would end up drinking again - to escape - and complete the circle. One day I realised that guilt was part of the problem and used the pain, I had wasted on guilt, to build a resolve to DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT! I still get ratted - as most of you will know - but rarely, and I don't feel guilty about it. I apologise - if necessary - and I either give myself a stern telling off, or, I sympathise if I think that the drinking was warranted as a release valve. I don't often feel guilty anymore and I don't let others make me feel guilty - because I know it is anti-productive. So don't be guilty - be determined.

i'm not hoping for a reply to this and i don't really like fawning in the threads but would just like to say thanks funky and fish for clarifying something for me today that has been a misty mess for too long!