Poor John Stone

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Mon, 2005-01-17 17:53

Poor John Stone

He just can't leave it alone can he? I wondered why he hadn't been here lately, it's obviously because he's been busy in the asylum. Whatever gives him the impression that he's an authority on anything?

>> Author: Jack_Cade (84.12.61.---)
Date: 01-16-05 18:11

Oi! Richard! Michel! Stop being all abctales!

Rockman has some damn good points, and he wasn't trying to be malicious. I'm not saying that kneejerk either. My first thoughts when I arrived here just now were, "Feck, Tim. What idiot thing have you gone and said now?"

But I've read it, and I think his comments have been received very ungenerously. The democracy thing is a good snag - a good angle - for the book. And it does make the anthology stand out. It makes it unique. But I agree that it won't make it *better*. An anthology with one person, or a very small number of people at the helm is bound to end up more cohesive, more consistent.

UKAP has a serious problem, however - due to its status as a small press - in that it's arm does not extend far enough to easily round up an audience for a cohesive and coherent one-mood anthology. If you want it to sell (and by that I mean sell enough to make it a worthwhile project, rather than sell out,) you have to make the appeal broad, rather than deep. It works on a 'something for everyone' basis.

I don't think there's anything wrong with that kind of project. And I think it's brave to take the democratic stance, rather than the elitist stance that nearly all books take. But sometimes I think there's far too much sensitivity here, and we're gonna have to accept that, as a result of the approach UKAP takes to its anthologies, there's going to be some duff pieces in it. People vote for their friends - not *because* they're of a mind to cheat, but because we're always going to see the better side of work that our friends have written. It's more like politician's voting for each other than a public vote when you think about it.

I mean, for Christ's sake, you had Mississippi's 'For Janet, Wherever She May Be' in the first one. I challenge anyone to defend that as a quality piece of writing, rather than something they admire because it's the brave and honest confessions of someone they know and respect.

Come on, we're fallible. We need to accept our flaws and play up our strengths, not deny everything and throw cold water on those who dare to bring it up.

Oh dear, does that mean I won't get published? I'm SO upset.

Wed, 2005-01-19 22:52

Hen

You're a very disturbed man, SG. And D - thanks for reminding me of what I said, but adding your judgement after it just looks like some crazed juxtaposition. It's still a fair point. Even Missi himself recognises that I was only being honest. This is, of course, what I was referring to when I told Richard and Michel to not go 'all abctales' on me. There's an environment here of defending your buddies and haranguing their enemies irrelevant to whatever each is arguing.

Wed, 2005-01-19 22:58

radiodenver

Jon, I've always voiced and defend my opinions. I don't have any buddies here. My natural feelings are going to fall where they will. I live about 3500 miles from the nearest one of you blokes and it's unlikely we'll all be drinking a cold one over it this weekend. I am opinionated; you're stuck with that young fellow. Yours truly, Dipshit

Thu, 2005-01-20 17:51

mississippi

Pass the cocaine, I'm down to my last Aspro.

Thu, 2005-01-20 19:02

Brownie_1

>>>>>>>>.just hates arguments...

Tue, 2005-01-18 00:47

mississippi

Normal service....

Wed, 2005-01-19 00:33

stormy

S'ok shacks, I didn't see you.

Thu, 2005-01-20 19:59

mississippi

I'm not fussed about the inanities of a dope-head, Jannet, nor those of a juvenile who doesn't know the difference between lying and maybe making wrong assumptions. He doesn't even annoy me, he spends his time here showing everyone what a retard he is. I expect he'll put his 'terrorist' hat on later and 'infiltrate' a few threads. What's all this 'mature' bit though? I don't even know what I want to be when I grow up, though I suppose someone will advise me any moment.

Wed, 2005-01-19 23:33

Hen

OK, point taken. Fact remains, however, that 90+ posts into this it's more than apparent that both you and Missi seem to largely agree with me. I said: "I challenge anyone to defend that as a quality piece of writing, rather than something they admire because it's the brave and honest confessions of someone they know and respect." You said: "I read your poem, and thought it was very heart-felt and expressed very well what was probably a very emotional thing at the time. So, it won't be in the Walt Whitman collection...gee, heartbreak hotel." Missi said: "It was also written before I'd ever been on ANY writing site and a couple of months before I joined ABC. It was never intended for publication in ANY form, just a bit of catharsis." His mistake - and yours - is reckoning that my statement constitutes a 'critique', or 'tearing down', rather than what it actually meant, which is pretty much exactly what you two say here. That the poem is admirable as a confession, but shouldn't really be in a collection. I still think I picked a very good example of what I mean. A collection which features the second piece ever written by someone - intended only for cartharsis, and applauded chiefly for being heart-felt - is not going to be of the same standard as a collection that's ruthlessly edited. Ergo, I fail to see what anyone has a problem with. You all just seem to enjoy blowing things out of proportion. And Missi - I *know* my guitar-playing's crap, but I like it that way, else I would have done something about it. As long as I know just about enough to write songs I like, that's enough for me. Now, Johnny Marr on the other hand *cannot* be beaten.

Tue, 2005-01-18 01:08

#10

mississippi

I wasn't sweating over anything Denver, I really don't care what the arrogant, ignorant little turd has to say about anything. I just feel obliged to show people here what his feelings are towards THIS site.

Wed, 2005-01-19 23:40

#11

mississippi

Oh well that's alright then. You're vindicated AGAIN and I'm a **** AGAIN. Now fuck off back to wherever it was you spent the last 2 weeks and leave us to wallow in our inferiority. Thank you.

Tue, 2005-01-18 01:19

#12

stormy

hahaha denver, my post is clean of sarcasm. Tim was misunderstood - big time - especially by Richard (he trolls on here from time to time - he will deny it, of course, but he has - trust me) amnd that's all there is to it really. Who is John calling a moron? ?

Tue, 2005-01-18 01:23

#13

Flash

you mean Rokkit don't you Stormy? i think john is calling Henpecker a moron.....but i'm not sure either....maybe he isn't either.

Tue, 2005-01-18 01:27

#14

stormy

Oops! Scratch the first part of my last post ... I scrolled too quick and read Rokkit's post as Denver's. Tim, nope, I agree with everything you said in your post. Shame no one understood it.

Thu, 2005-01-20 20:44

#15

Hen

"I expect he'll put his 'terrorist' hat on later and 'infiltrate' a few threads." Is this some kind of secret language that only you understand? Since when have threads required 'infiltration' with inverted commas? To be making assumptions, Missi, you'd have to not know different. But you do know different, in many cases, because I've corrected you. Or are you arguing that if I were to go around telling people you hated women, that would be an 'assumption' rather than a 'lie'?

Tue, 2005-01-18 02:55

#16

Rokkitnite

I think most respondents understood my point - a few just misjudged the intention behind it, perhaps. If I had wanted to raise hackles I would have been far less diplomatic. It doesn't seem to take much to wind someone up on UKA, these days. Post anything more controversial than a jpg of a kitten in sunglasses and you'll have a mob armed with pitchforks and blazing torches kicking in your front door like the Sweeney. Back on topic, I suspect many of us would feel a little disappointed if the dispute between Sheriff Jon Stone and Mrs Hippy ever showed signs of abating. They're destined to end up trapped in burning building/sinking ship together, a la The Towering Inferno/The Poseidon Adventure - forced to put aside their differences and work together, their struggle against adversity will foster a grudging respect, although once back to safety they'll go back to bickering as if nothing ever happened. But *we'll* know how they really feel, won't we?

Tue, 2005-01-18 07:35

#17

mississippi

I don't believe how 'I' feel was ever in doubt. He may grow up one day, and like the rest of us, realise that he isn't really an authority on anything. He just has opinions which are no more nor less valid than anyone elses. Until that time is upon us i doubt it would be possible for me to raise any respect for him at all. Thank you.

Thu, 2005-01-20 21:00

#18

mississippi

My first remark was about the ignorant turd who thinks he's going to raise a genius daughter by teaching her at home. The only reference to you was the second part of the opening sentence. I admit I wasn't very lucid when making that post. Where you're concerned I 'know' your self-belief pre-empts any possibility that you may be wrong, about yourself or anything else for that matter. Your hypothesis regarding myself and women could possibly be true if applied to certain women, but in general is a misconception. To label a statement a lie would, I imagine, require irrefutable proof to the contrary. Disagreement is NOT proof therefore the term 'lie' is incorrect as far as I can see.

Wed, 2005-01-19 23:48

#19

radiodenver

I'm talking space travel with a parrot. Never mind. So, what about the Broncos? Do you think they have a chance of getting past the 1st round of the playoff’s next year?

Tue, 2005-01-18 11:57

#20

radiodenver

Okay, I"m still a bit in the dark here... Is someone here the same person by different handle as Jack Cade on UKA... I can't keep track of all these alter-ego's?

Thu, 2005-01-20 21:24

#21

In Bloom

blah

Tue, 2005-01-18 13:04

#22

mississippi

*notices there's a power cut across Colorado and reaches for emergency lighting switch* John/Jon Stone is 'henstoat' John Stone is also 'Jack Cade', brother of 'Locozade'and cousin of 'Soon Army Aid'. Does that help?

Mon, 2005-01-17 17:56

#23

radiodenver

Now George....it's only an opinion. Did anyone agree with it?

Wed, 2005-01-19 23:58

#24

mississippi

Denver, in the UK Bronco is a brand of arsewipe.

Mon, 2005-01-17 18:15

#25

Rokkitnite

How did you discover that thread, Missi? You ent been paying secret visits to UKA, have you?

Thu, 2005-01-20 00:01

#26

Hen

How about I **** off when you stop telling lies about me, George?

Thu, 2005-01-20 00:02

#27

mississippi

Are you delusional on all fronts?

Thu, 2005-01-20 00:03

#28

1legspider

You two are a comical duo.... deep down you do care about each other, right???

Wed, 2005-01-19 17:56

#29

Hen

"one of the asylum regulars that you think likes you...." Who I think likes me? Can't be Shacks then. He's been gnashing at my heels for God knows how long, the snide git.

Thu, 2005-01-20 00:03

#30

radiodenver

Well, we're in the same league then. Over here, it's a local professional (American) football team that plays like arsewipes!

Mon, 2005-01-17 18:31

#31

mississippi

I was pointed to it by several asylum inmates who actually quite like me, Tim.

Mon, 2005-01-17 18:34

#32

radiodenver

So, do I qualify as an inmate, I do have an account there? I saw this thread but never gave it much thought. What's the story then, since you've brought it up and errrr well, there's always more to something than meets the eye...ya know what I mean.

Thu, 2005-01-20 00:04

#33

radiodenver

Bronco toilet paper? Sounds like John Wayne toilet paper. Rough & Tough and won't take shit off of anybody!

Mon, 2005-01-17 18:38

#34

mississippi

The story is, that the kid in Norwich and I have been at logger-heads for a long while. Mainly over his superiority complex and his belief that I'm a crap writer. I may well be, I don't really care, but he ain't anything special either, and HE DOES care.

Fri, 2005-01-21 00:13

#35

Hen

But you don't have irrefutable proof that you aren't a mysoginist (gah...spelling hell...) If such an accusation were made, the onus is on the accuser to prove it true, not you to prove it untrue. Innocent until proven guilty. And the same should be true of your claims that I have unfathomable depths of self-belief, especially since the effigy of me you insist on verbally torching in front of everyone is unlike any person I've ever come across. I mean, would I even bother defending myself if I was wrapped up in smug self-satisfaction? Of course not. No one would be able to get to me. I'd just sit here laughing at you. Which, weirdly enough, is what you like to claim you're doing whenever you get into an argument with me. Maybe you're the one whose self-belief knows no bounds? I mean, you're always saying how you don't care about the opinions of your detractors, right? Isn't that because you don't for a moment entertain the notion that they might have a point? It seems to me that what you like to tell people about me, and what you like to tell people about yourself, are really very similar things. You just word the former positively, the latter negatively. But essentially you insist that we're both firmly entrenched in our opinions, and immune to criticism.

Wed, 2005-01-19 18:30

#36

david floyd

Hen, I can't believe you'd say this... "I mean, for Christ's sake, you had Mississippi's 'For Janet, Wherever She May Be' in the first one. I challenge anyone to defend that as a quality piece of writing, rather than something they admire because it's the brave and honest confessions of someone they know and respect." ... for any other reason that to provoke an argument such as this. I think your general comments on the first UKA anthology are broadly right, and Missi's never claimed to be Ted Hughes, but the poem in question doesn't even come close to being the worst thing in that anthology in terms of writing quality - I wouldn't even put it in the bottom 25% - and I can't imagine you would have used it as an example if the author had been someone else.

Thu, 2005-01-20 00:08

#37

mississippi

Anyway, what exactly WAS the 'lie' I told about you? That's the second time you've called me a liar and I'm beginning to get a little agitated about it.

Mon, 2005-01-17 18:54

#38

radiodenver

Well, most of us are crap writers, shouldn't keep us from trying now should it? When somebody resorts to tearing others work down for personal reasons they loose credibility. As I recall, the debate on this topic was something to do with how they selected works for the next anthology, and somewhere before that comment was another comment that the editors took issue with. I think, in hindsight, it was a bit late and a few peoples feelings were hurt momentarily, but all in all, I found nothing offensive, then again, it wasn't me that they were talking about. So, this guy Jack Cade has a grudge against you going back a few years....whoop-de-doo...he's insecure...whoope-de-doo....

Fri, 2005-01-21 00:24

#39

In Bloom

Bravo! Agh..he's just JEALOUS! He's a pitiful fool.

Wed, 2005-01-19 18:36

#40

mississippi

Exactly, David, thank you.

Fri, 2005-01-21 00:28

#41

radiodenver

Hey Dufus....How's the hammer hang'n?

Mon, 2005-01-17 19:01

#42

mississippi

Well he never misses a chance to slag me (he did it again on another asylum thread). He thinks I'm an old fart and I KNOW he's a cocky young kid that needs a slap, shame his mother never gave him one.

Wed, 2005-01-19 18:43

#43

neil_the_auditor

Jon, I think that to go into an anthology and single out one piece of work - by someone who's wound you up - and label it "duff" is a bit poor, and I also hope that you're not so twattish that you fail to realise it. All anthologies are bound to have pieces that individuals don't like and fail to live up to high arty ideals, but these may strike a chord with readers who may not be so "poetic" as you and would prefer plain emotional intensity to a lot of clever but sterile wordplay.

Thu, 2005-01-20 00:10

#44

radiodenver

Friar...he meant Friar.... Friar George...

Mon, 2005-01-17 19:08

#45

radiodenver

Well, don't sweat it. I read your poem, and thought it was very heart-felt and expressed very well what was probably a very emotional thing at the time. So, it won't be in the Walt Whitman collection...gee, heartbreak hotel. I haven't seen his name in the window at the bookstore either.

Wed, 2005-01-19 18:47

#46

Hen

You'll have to believe it. It was the first example that came to mind, likely because those others you mention are largely forgettable, whereas Someone-Who-Shall-Remain-Nameless has reminded me of 'For Janet...' in anecdote form numerous times since seeing it performed. Another possible reason is that it's a great example of something voted in, for the reason Radiodenver states - because the sentiments are admirable. Ergo, for sentimental reasons. While there may well be other pieces that are worse, there's none that is so obviously a man pouring out his heart. A third reason is that Missi is the best example I know of someone who can't really be arsed with writing, and frequents this site merely because it was the first one he's come across where he can say anything he likes. So again, a perfect example of how people can get into the anthology from association with the people on writing sites, rather than producing any work. A forth reason would be that Missi is one of the few people in the UKA anthologies who is no longer a member of UKA, so I successfully avoided insulting anyone involved in the current project. Missi's also someone who I'm not very sympathetic to, so I can speak my mind about him without feeling particularly guilty. Plentiful reasons, if you ask me, for my choice. If I had wanted to upset Missi by insulting his writing, or cause a ruckus through those means, I would have done it long ago, in this forum.

Tue, 2005-01-18 17:35

#47

radioenlightened

Well then....that splains it. In retrospect...it was a cheap shot.

Thu, 2005-01-20 00:11

#48

1legspider

Nuthin worse than someone who lies about lying (how do you spell liang?)

Wed, 2005-01-19 18:58

#49

Hen

It's not a question of emotional intensity versus artiness, Neil. Emotional intensity would be fine, but I think it highly unlikely that anyone would be moved by 'For Janet...' unless they know the man. I just don't think it works on that level. Maybe if he set it to music and sung it sweetly, but not on the page.... And what's more, I think *you* know that, and everyone here knows that. Even Missi knows that. But you don't say it, or even think it to yourself, because respecting someone's feelings is more important to you than being frank about quality. That would be the case for me as well, except that Missi has carefully dispatched every speck of respect I have for him and his feelings. I didn't think he'd read it - I didn't plan on him reading it - but nevertheless, I don't feel one iota of shame or guilt for saying it. It's the truth, and it hasn't hurt anyone I give a damn about.

Wed, 2005-01-19 19:02

#50

Andorra

But wasn't that first anthology the one that included everything, and there was *no* voting for selection? I remember reading that they were going to vote but in the end included everything that had even one recommendation, and it worked out pretty well that way.

Thu, 2005-01-20 00:12

#51

Stephen Gardiner

Radio, I can tell you that given their performance tonight in a friendly against French Championship leaders, Union Treiziste Catalane in St Esteve, going down 28-24, the London Broncos are unlikely to get near the European rugby league playoffs. Meanwhile, their namesakes over the pond left the field at Raymond James Stadium last night wondering why they could only manage a 16-13 win over Tampa. Not good. Quentin Griffin's ankle injury could prove to be a killer. Next week: Explaining to radiodenver how you can play cricket for five days, stopping each day for lunch and tea, and still only get a draw.

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