Depressingly domestic?

Well your quote di say 'on the whole', not everyone. It's also the personal opinions of just two quite possibly like-minded people, so for them it's obviously true. But for others? We all make our own judgements, and mine is that their are just as many 'domestic' writers of both sexes. I really don't think gender has much to do with it, except in the conditioned mind.

Radio - I've been in this situation, and I'm now much much happier since I pretended that my computer has Dan's Ignore program installed. It really isn't worth trying to engage in conversation.

It's roughly the same thing as playing fetch with the dog Andrew. I throw a stick, he chases it and brings it back. Dogs don't know any better. Maybe it's not nice to take advantage of the disabled though. I should rethink.

there really is no need to pretend

you got the code?

hold on a sec...

you'll need firefox

Well....(hold tight it's one of ferg's favourite topics)... I think what they would have been talking about is that women are quite likely to 'do the right thing' (even if in their heads they are doing a million wrong things)... and this is the same with literature. There is nothing wrong with 'the domestic'... sheesh... it's one of my favourite subjects. But when people write about it in a way that just reiterates the TV ad, soap opera world, rather than questions it, play with it, or just prove that they themselves don't inhabit a world like that, then that is a waste of writing. You have to compromise yourself in so many situations, I feel that writing really shouldn't be one of them. I watched TV last night and while the ads were blaring out at me I thought, 'God, if I really took in what's on TV I would think that was the real world and my world - nothing like that for toffee - is so outside of that I must be an outisder.' But I'm not an outsider and have plenty of friends who don't inhabit that world either, or maybe just bits of it. BUT, I also think that, in general, people expect to hear great, life-changing, philosophical things coming from the minds of men. You ask most people who their favourite writer is, or their favourite book, and it's usually by men. Often people (of both sexes) think that women have nothing to say about existence other than, 'then I cooked tea, and fed the baby, and then I hung out the washing.' The thing is, there are lots of interesting and fabulous and dark things that could be written about those things, that would say a lot about the world, but it seems that people aren't particularly ready to read them, or even sometimes, write them. My friend works in a bookshop. She says she count on her fingers the amount of men who come in and buy a book by a woman. Ali Smith is a fabulous writer, a really fabulous writer I think. Toby Litt... I'm not too sure about that.

Bollocks - try again. I've been drinking (we decided it was technically Friday)

Is this in Java?

Toby Litt... dont get me started. They should try Pam Houston. Fabulous.

Perfect. It works

Javascript and XUL

Will it run on a Mac? I'd bet J-lo is using a Mac.

Domesticity is the last thing I ever write about! Perhaps I should send some off!lol smiling meakly Tai

*places fresh cuppa of tea on desk... slips socked feet in slippers... and sits back and waits for thread to unfold*

It'll run on anything that runs firefox, it's all scripted.

I saw Ali Smith on the BBC4 book show. She looked sweet and I was definitely interested in her new book. I'm not sure about the whole domestic female thing but I would say there are a lot of really good gay female writers around at the moment, and no good gay male ones. Apart from Douglas Coupland.

I agree with all your points Ferg, and think these things myself much of the time. I question the perception of the 'domestic' as 'risk-free' - childbirth for one - sheesh!!! Choice of partner/father of your children/work-life balance. It's part of a kind of denial (on the part of both men and women) that these things are risks which results in women seeming to compensate by conformity or doing/saying the right things/playing safe. It's also a survival mechanism of sorts I suppose, esp. when there are children. I agree there are lots of interesting angles on feeding the baby, cooking tea and hanging out the washing that are largely unexplored, though the motherhood experience has brought about some good writing from women. I can't remember which novel it was - something I read years ago about a woman with a small child and a lot of probs. (think she was some sort of musician) and I'll never forget some of the descriptions of the temptation to do harm to the child, very disturbing. But I also ask, why the push to make women emulate men in their writing? Are we embarrassed about it, or simply stirring things up through boredom? Is this really the way to encourage women to explore new ways of writing - the eternal comparison and generalisation revolving around gender? I was a trifle annoyed listening to the radio the other day when a woman writer (sorry, again, facts evade me) was recommending short, classic reads to an 'ordinary man'. They hit on 'Heart of Darkness' and referred to it as a man's book. Well, I have to say that this irked me somewhat. It's an all time favourite of mine. Why should it be considered a man's book? Are we not equally vulnerable to the realisation of the cruelty and horror of existence? Do we not have access to the vision that is 'the horror, the horror'. Are we too delicate to access the depths of corruptibility at the heart of humanity? Humph.

I think women writing often feel they have a lot to prove... and want to be taken 'seriously' which gets in the way of them writing something good. I saw this on the course I was on and found it sort of embarassing sometimes. This desperate need to 'be taken seriously' that some of the women felt to the detriment of their work. I kept wanting to get them to kick up their heels and bloody forget about being taken seriously (by their idea of literary 'men' I felt) and just enjoy their writing. I have the horrible feeling than some people - who do have talent and good ideas - get carried away with the idea of being 'a writer' and having book tours and people wanting to hear them say bon mots, rather than actually writing something good. And I noticed that the women were always justifying their choice of subject, how they wrote etc etc. I wouldn't say it was the men making them do it, but more some sort of male 'vapour' that's in the air, making women feel like they are on a lower level somehow.

I'm not buying a bloody helicopter just to ignore someone! although I might buy it if all the weapons and night vision stuff was still on it

I think books are books Em - I guess a lot of female writers get frustrated that only one half of the population are interested in their books.

I really do have it. It's a marvel. dan's a marvel. dan for God, yay.

I thought a high percentage of violence was domestic in origin... I would hardly consider it 'safe'... in many families, daily life is a battleground... I cannot think of bigger topics than what goes on everyday in the bringing up of children.... all the 'big issues' germinate from the home.

I can't lecture you, Gary - he's the first troll that I've not been able to blithely ignore, but there really is no sense in having discussions with him, because he (a) doesn't listen (b) doesn't change (c) doesn't understand and (d) responds without fail with either 'sook' or a string of cryptic pretentious garbage. I'll talk to him when he makes sense and pretend he's not contributing to a thread when he doesn't.

That's what I was saying Spider, earlier on.... I have often thought of repossessing the word 'domestic' so that it wasn't used as a negative put down. I agree, in part with the points in the quote at the top of this thread, but I wish people would stop using 'domestic' in a negative manner. I was thinking about starting a new literary group called 'the domestics' much better than 'new puritans' or whatever

But Stepford, already exists?

'The domestics'. I think you should... you could have badges and everything. I would class Fish's works as a ' domestic'... brilliantly so, if I may say so oilsmarmly...

Badge logo: "Beware: Menstrual Pens Unite"

Shut up Jasper.

Now Jasper, behave yourself, else you will be dragged away by your ear to confinement upstairs.

I personally find "domestic" writing a boreing read. I see a bit of it come in on the zine and typically turn it away. From time to time though, something really good pops up.

Like twat...ooopppss, I mean, like what?

Have you ever written anything readable J-lo? You blather on but I've yet to read anything you've written. Are you a writer or a wanna-be or just some groupie?

I guess we need to define the word 'domestic' and pretty fast.

Ohhh, go ahead and lecture me, I don't mind.

Just Femme fatale

Yes and you have not lathered praise on my work too... so your judgement is suspect.

Naked boy...mmmmmmmm

Groupie.

sook

Domestic=Concerning the household. (In my opinion)

I'd be more suspecting if he did "lather praise" on somebody's work.

Okay.... so why does stuff 'concerning the household' have to be boring?? Loads of stuff happens in the household doesn't it?

Miss Rawlings will be pleased to heard you definitons Radio: And G.Greer, M.Thompson, Barbra Foley, Emily Bronte and Andrea Dworkins might just step in to cut all men to literary pieces!

I live in a household. I've been in a household my whole life. I know all about the household. I don't want to read about somebody elses household. It's a matter of taste. It's not that it's bad writing or such, just that it doesn't interest me personally. I'd rather read about something I haven't experienced.

I am going to write a story today that I qualify as domestic and we shall see...

Will there be a dwarf in it?

probably time for you to make another cuppa, Spider?

Last time I read the stats (1996): For every 100 books women publish, a male author writes just one which gets far more praise and publisher push than the 100 do in total sum...if you know what I mean? Women either get a bum deal, or they talk too much? I'll shut up now!