Read it First, Damn You

I think you should become a politician Andrew! Your posting seemed to me to be ambiguous and uni-directional, qualities essential to survival in the boys club! I would be the first to defend Karl's right to express his opinion but that doesn't necessarily make him right, and I should point out that the home office, like all government depts. is staffed by amatuers at everything, including getting the facts right. My GP Dr. J Cormack, is the Essex spokesman for the General Medical Council and he has stated publicly in local papers that the doctors in his area NEVER see a drug patient who didn't start on cannabis! I am sure he wouldn't mind me quoting him.

What I find fascinating about this thread so far is that the drugs comment has generated a passionate response and the bullying incident has generated nothing. I personally find the bullying thing far more disturbing and damaging for the average young person growing up than the drugs thing. The drugs question is heavily politicized and will probably never get a fair hearing one way or the other, but could anyone seriously be in favor of legalizing bullying? Yet, evidently, bullying is perfectly acceptible, not in the sense that it is seen as morally correct, but rather in the sense that people accept it without doing much to prevent or punish it. If I had a child in the school system here I would be far more concerned about bullying than about drugs, especially given what appears to be the de facto condoning of bullying by the authorities and parents.

Ralph, let me make one thing clear to you. I am not a New Age do-gooder hopping on the 'wow these tribal native people are so cool' bandwagon - and wholeheartedly resent the fact that you appear to be implying this. I have a number of Native American friends, mainly Lakota, who would dissociate themselves from me if I was an adherent to such a shallow philosophy. Do you think I don't know about the hardships on the reservations - the high rates of alcoholism, as much as 85% unemployment, the deaths of unacceptably high numbers of young people from solvent abuse? Do you think I'm unaware that the majority of homes on the reservations have no electricity, no heating, no hot and cold running water and inadequate sanitation? And do you think I'm unaware of the fact that 20-25% of babies born on some reservations are affected by foetal alcohol syndrome, or that there severe health crises caused by rapidly rising rates of diabetes and HIV infection ? In addition to these issues, I'm also aware that there are certain 'New Age' types who seize upon Native American customs and ceremonies and try and weave them into their own belief systems. This I find abhorrent - it's disrespectful in the extreme. These ceremonies are tied to the land and the culture of the people with whom they evolved, for New Agers to try and claim them as their own is as selfish and pernicious as the acts of the original European invaders. In contrast to what you appear to be implying, Native American people are not some cool, mystical, semi-fantastical figures in my mind. My friends are ordinary folk, going about their daily work as teachers, writers, students, law enforcement officers and parents. If I was some shallow little New Age trendy jumping on any pathetic little bandwagon, these good friends of mine, who I regrettably don't get to see often enough, would not have welcomed me into their lives. Besides, I'm too bloody old to be a New Ager!

Justin In a sense what you just said can be married. I work in a lot of schools with my theatre company, especially in the London Borough of Hackney. We do work about drug awarness, we try to demysify it for school staff and children alike. Its hard graft and sometimes wonder if its worth it. Why? Read on. How do we all feel about children as young as nine bullying other children into taking drugs in the playground? It happens and thats a fact. It's not a News Of The World exclusive Bullying has been a huge problem in schools for ever. In my opinion it has never been fully addressed by the relevent authorities and that includes the grass roots world of overworked teachers. There is no real goverment legistlation on how to deal with bullying. Just useless courses that school staff are given the option to go on with countless forms to fill in. Some crusty old bastards of teachers that I have had the misfortune to work and meet over the years state that bullying is fine and sorts out peoples role in the world later on in life. God, these people must have been serious bullies or been bullied viciously when they were kids. Bullying ruins lives, so do drugs. Some people (not all) take drugs to opt out of real world, a world that they feel inferior in because they were told at a very young age that they were not good enough. Stop bullying and so much can be achieved. Its not a hippy notion. I would really like to see that article Karl if you can locate it. Ralph

that every drug "patient" started on cannabis may well be this doctor's experience but it does not mean that everyone who uses cannabis goes on to using harder drugs ... that would be like saying that because everyone who is knocked over by a bus started off by crossing the road everyone who crosses the road will be knocked over by a bus ... the interesting question is why is cannabis illegal in the first place? ... and when was it made so? ... how is it that cannabis is illegal when as andrew points out alcohol is acceptable as are cigarettes ... which are both probably more damaging ... i would rather my kids used cannabis than alcohol ... alcohol would seem to be behind much violent behaviour ... it is fascinating that at fresher's fairs around the country the inducement for people to attend Armed Forces recruitment drives is free drinks ... cannabis would seem to be penalised for being symbolic of a lifestyle which rejects norms of behaviour and is closely related to anti - war, anti - work ethic, anti machismo ... thus is seen as striking at the heart of capitalist western society ... i have smoked it but alcohol and tobacco are my drugs of choice ...

What I find even more interesting Justin is that, so far, everyone has now focussed on the two issues that Karl used to illustrate his query but none has tried to answer the question. (and that is not a complaint folks, it is just an observation. I wonder what it tells us about ourselves? No doubt those here that know how the mind works will be able to answer me). Anyway, I think one reason Karl is that people are afraid to have their prejudices and opinions altered by reading what they perceive to be 'wrong' just from looking at the title. I know that when I was much younger I would not read articles written by politicians or columnists whose views I strongly disagreed with. Was I afraid that the strength of their argument would cause me to alter my cosy opinion? Probably. Nowadays I try not to let a title or author put me off and read on before deciding if they are talking nonsense or not. And I must admit, I have been persuaded to change my mind on many an occasion when presented with a sound, well thought out argument.

I guess I should join in here, although I’m hurrying to go out, so please excuse me if this seems a bit disjointed. Ralph, I would dearly love to read my article myself if I could locate it. It was 10 pages long and, as I said earlier, well researched. First of all, let me state that, for the most part, I am against the evil of drugs. I’ve been around a lot of that stuff and I know what I’m talking about. Here’s my argument in a nutshell: The police force and the prison service spends what amounts to billions of pounds a year policing drugs and drug-related crime (muggings, prostitution, burglary etc.). If drugs were legalised, made by the state and sold in, say, chemists, several benefits would be realised immediately: 1) Addicts would be buying “clean” gear instead of gear mixed with all sorts of @!#$ unscrupulous dealers. 2) The UK would have billions of pounds per year to spend on the NHS. 3) More importantly, this money could go towards building state-of-the-art rehab centres. 4) There would also be enough money left over to run massive – and I do mean MASSIVE – anti-drug campaigns. (I envisaged drug-free sections in restaurants and bars). 5) The evil Columbian drug cartels would discover that their market had dried up overnight. For evidence, I looked back in my article to the days of prohibition in the States. Prohibition succeeded in two ways: 1) It turned virtually all Americans into criminals. And if you have to mix with criminals to buy your booze/drugs, there is the danger of turning to other forms of crime. 2) The only people to become rich out of prohibition were the bootleggers, Al Capone and his lot. We have the same situation here and now. Because drugs are illegal, the only people to make money out of them are the bad guys. And that’s something none of us want. If that money was transferred into the governments coffers (both from the sale of drugs and the money saved on policing the issue, as well as the prison service) our taxes could hopefully be reduced. As it’s safe for you to walk down the road and buy a six-pack at your local off-licence, it would be just as safe for someone to buy drugs should he so desire. He wouldn’t have to mix with undesirables to do so. And, most importantly, he would be more aware of what he was doing to his body by the anti-drug campaigns all around him. As smoking is now often considered to be very anti-social, so would drug taking. Last point, those mini-dealers in the night-clubs and discos would be forced to find work that could maybe be a benefit to society. I’m well aware that someone will offer the opinion that they would only turn to other forms of crime, and this may well be the case, but it never hurts to remain optimistic. Sorry this has been rushed.

To answer the question - when I wrote my article on the conjoined twins, arguing that the Court of Appeal should not have let the operation to separate go ahead, a few people tried to argue the point with me, until they'd read the article. (In fact, I think some of the barristers in the case read the piece. ) On the vexed drugs issue, give Bobblehat 2000s Draw Conclusions a read www.abctales.com/abcplex/viewstory.cgi?s=2695 I certainly am not in favour of drug-taking - I've seen heroin screw up a lot of people; but not nearly so many as speed (widely viewed as a fairly harmless boost) or alcohol. And we don't tend to see the people screwed up by fags... I will be quite happy to plug a well-written anti-drugs piece here, if the author wants to drop me an email.

dear All Karl's arguments make some sense. But only some. Remember this. If you take the drugs away from the street dealers and put them into the shops, the advertisers of the product, (always the real dealers, like it or not) would have the last laugh. These advertising firms already have marketing plans and packaging, they are waiting for a green light and are ready to flood the market. I have seen prototype packs of the following. 'Charlie Boy' Cocaine 'Early Girl' Ecstasy 'Phaze' LSD 'Wild Runnings' Cannabis 'Dreamweaver' Ketamine 'Stepper' Speed These are real examples and it will proberly happen sooner or later. Its a sordid game is it not. There will not be that much control of the selling. Market forces only dictate the inflow and outflow of money and nothing between. If you cant buy it in the shops because you are not old enough to get it, where are you going to go, back to the street. The Del Boy culture. A slippery slope. The only way to accept drugs is through education. The Dutch have done this very well indeed. Ralph

Yeah I guess when people feel strongly about something they get set in their ways and close their minds, and so they are loathe to read something that might challenge their opinions. I was bullied at school, but I didn't tell anyone because I was afraid of the kids. Afraid they might give me a kicking if they found out I grassed on them. So I kept it to myself and would scive off school, cause I didn't want to get into fights. But over the course of time I fought them back using my intelligence and words, and also I used to be very good at football. So somehow miraculously I got their respect and the hardest person in my school became my best friend. And from that moment on noone touched me. I'#ve never bullied anyone though, have always stuck up for the underdog. Gone out of my way at times to stick up for people. Drugs is a touchy subject mmm. I have taken quite a few drugs in my time. I think people should have the choice though. People may think it's wrong to take drugs, but then it's wrong to exploit third world countries, which the western world does a lot. Whenever you buy coffee or Nike trainers or something from nestle your taking part in this exploitation. Some of the things that happen to these third world workers is shocking and horrifying. But back to drugs: alcohol and tobbaco kill far more people than all the other drugs put together. Millions of clubbers take pills every weekend. Yet since ecstasy came out in the 1980's there have been relatively few deaths. And of course the media have painted great horror stories about the drug. Most peoples attitudes come from what they've read and seen on the media, most of it is propaganda. The greatest horror story is the amount of people taking up hospital beds dieing from smoking related diseases. I tell you why the media paint such horrible stories - is because when rave started they couldn't figure it out. The energy of the culture was powerful. And it was a no logo culture, non-political culture, all-embracing and in a sense anti-capitilist. People were getting together and forming communities again. Margaret Thatcher hated it. Like she hated the convoy of travellers who got beaten up and smashed up when they were ambushed by the police in the battle of the beanfields. Basically we live in a state that though it seems pretty easy-going - isn't. As soon as you step out of line, full of new ideas that don't conform to the capitilist agenda, the state becomes very unpleasant. I think that's why a lot of drugs are illegal, particularly the mind-altering ones, cause they make you think a bit more deeply about things, and in that sense are dangerous. If a whole generation of people start following ideas: creating an alterative culture and society, then they become a threat. But it's hard man, I don't know if things will ever change. The more the corporations take over everything, the more people become the slaves to money. The world will get more polluted, the countryside will grow less and less. Sooner or later we're gonna have to fight. Those that care about our future anyway. There is no greater weapon in the hands of a dictator than the brainwashed minds of the people he is trieing to oppress/possess. The people need to rise up and take back what's theirs. Have some courage and change the whole structure of everything, build a new world. Make new symbols, make new signs. Cause for me anyway, the way the world is at the moment - isn't working. It's all tragic and wrong and seems to be spiralling into it's own self-destruction. Cause the greedy fatcats are allowed to get away with their evil. Bribing the governments. killing us with their physical and mental pollution. Maybe it's time for a war. A real war though, bring down the fatcats, abolish money. And from the ashes of their old world, become the phoenix of a new world. sorry for deviating from the thread, got a bit carried away there. respect

Stormy, I had that same thought, actually, but since I didn't know what the contents of either letter were, I figured I would make an observation about the thread, rather than the question itself. I will agree with fish that not everyone who smokes pot will become a heroin addict, or even a pot addict for that matter. Similarly, not everyone who drinks will become an alcoholic. The reason tobacco and alcohol are legal and these other things aren't is simply that there is a whole commercial industry behind both of them, as well as a long (very long in the case of alcohol; not so long in the case of tobacco) history of general social acceptance. In short, there is no powerful voting constituency for pot, etc. It got started too late for that, although maybe there are enough pot smokers to get something passed in their favor. I really don't think this kind of thing will ever be done on the basis of medical facts. It's just who has the power/money and what is the fashion of the moment. I'm still intriqued by the bullying thing. When I was in grade school and high school (late 50s and alll of the 60s), bullying of the kind that seems routine here, was just unheard of in my neighborhood. And I did not grow up in a wealthy area. I would describe it as working class/lower middle class suburban. Yet neither parents, nor teachers, nor the kids would tolerate bullying. It was considering very uncool. There were turf battles between groups sometimes, but that's not the same thing. I think the natural tendency of kids is to attempt to bully, but if the whole system comes down on them when they try, it doesn't work. They are isoloted and stop it. If the whole system looks the other way, then they just keep doing it.

I think the whole drug paranoia started with the Spanish inquizition. Native American Indians used to injest psycho-tropic substances as part of their shamanic culture. As ways to improve themselves and learn more about the world in which they lived. But it got demonised by The Catholic church and so they were persecuted and their drug taking ways were tried to be stamped out. In fact our culture has a history of psychotropic drug use. This too was stamped out by the christian religion. But our ancestors used to have all night dance parties and injest these drugs. It was a normal part of life. Maybe that has been like a seed in opur unconscious which has chosen to sprout up now in this time. and that's why people are getting into psychotropic substances trieing to expand their minds, and why there is such a huge interest in the shamanic at the moment. I think can you blame people for trieing out drugs. I mean look at the state of some of the urban areas. Bleak and depressing high-rise scapes. It's hard to make something of your life at times. At times the world just seems like a dull soul-less place with no wonder. No magic, no mystery, it's all material. We are fooled into believing that everything is material, rational - the illusion of the corporate concrete neon vibe. So dis-satisfied people look for ways to escape this. To explore other possibilities. You take a tab of LSD( And I am not saying anyone should, it is a dangerous chemical.) It completely blows your world apart and puts you in touch with an alternative reality where things can't be explained too easily and where everything isn't as material as you thought. You feel hooked up to something ancient and illogical. It is a life-changing experience man. You never quite see the world in the same way again after taking that. For me anyway since taking LSD I have explored the heights and depths of the world's religions and gotten into shamanism, and found there is more to this world than machines and plastic money dreams. Me I think personally everybody should have the choice to take any drug they so wish. But I do believe in making them safer. If you legalised them then they should print our pamphlets to go with the drugs. So when you buy them you get a kind of flight manual. Tellng you what to expect, how long the experience will last, what the dangers are. If you have a bad time what you should do etc. Make them cleaner and safer and give people the space and the freedom to explore. It never did our ancestors any harm and it won't do us any harm. Besides whether you make drugs legal or keep them illegal. People won't care, they will still take them anyway. So the state looks a bit daft holding it's scroll of paper cause noone pays any attention to it anyway. They will take drugs whatever the scenario. So you may as well make them legal and make them safer.

I wasn't suggesting for one moment that all grass smokers become hardened drug addicts Alison, I was merely pointing out that the average GP sees what happens to those that can't control the habit. I have a few friends who have been smokers all their adult lives, in fact one was a highly qualified research chemist in the civil service and he told me he spent a lot of his time at work trying to find the 'best smoke' as he put it. He had a nice little grass farm in his greenhouse for years. None of my friends have ever gone beyond the smoking stage as far as I know and I don't have a problem with them. Karl's belief that legitimate profits would be spent on better hospitals, treatment etc. is wishful thinking. Is all the money raised by petrol tax, road tax, car tax and road tolls spent on the roads? Of course not, a lot of it goes on hospitals, unemployment benefits, schools and other social needs. There seems to be other holes in Karl's theories too. For example how is it that governments selling drugs for profit is a legitimate way of making money but when an entrepreneur does it he's evil? I have to say the bullying bit is worrying, I was bullied too and not just as a kid! I was harrassed and bullied out of my job 8yrs ago and nobody lifted a finger to help! It ain't nice!

Some of the most pathetic bullying I've ever witnessed took place in the City, among supposedly intelligent (or at least educted) and successful big time big deal hot shots, whom I shall call Wankers in the City and Career Whores for lack of anything less polite. You haven't lived until you witness some nasally four-eyed dweeb squeaking and squealing at the top of his lungs, spewing out abuse like a firehose. Mind you, I worked on Wall Street (NYC) many years ago and they're exactly the same, just different accents. Gawd, what a waste. I've known junkies with more class, and they were using at the time.

Drugs are a contentious issue, partly because daily mail readers really get their knickers in a twist about them. As many have said in this thread...alcohol and cigarettes are more dangerous than illegal substances. I don't think alcohol or tobacco would be legal if they were discovered today. Cannibis is not addictive as are the other two, and has more medicinal properties too. Also you never get hooligan like behaviour in city centres on friday/saturday night from dopeheads. I don't believe either that cannibis is a "gateway" drug, that will lead a user to experimenting with harder drugs....but if you keep drugs illegal, people will be given the opportunity to experiment with harder drugs as they have to obtain them from dealers with other drugs on offer too...so it is a gateway drug if it is illegal, but wouldn't be, if it were legal. heroin and crack...causes untold damage in terms of crime, doesn't kill as many as alcohol/cigarettes....as karl said, legalise it but control it. It's not controllable at the moment and has helped fund columbian and afghan warlords, surely something the average daily mail reader does not support. Bullying...I was bullied at school. I tried to ignore them....wasn't as confident as I am now. Not sure if I was right in my thinking but I was 12. Bullies should be tackled but it is difficult, the victim doesn't want parents involved as it makes them appear more weak and might provoke more bullying.

The only thing I want to say here (except that Funk's posts make the most sense to me) is; ain't it strange that The Netherlands has Europe's most tolerant attitude towards drugs (by which I mean cannabis, NOT smack, coke, alcohol etc) and yet the lowest number of junks, coupled by the fact that bullying in schools is not only not tolerated but is practically non-existant. I wonder why that is? I wrote an article about the cannabis issue, which no-one in the UK would publish (even though some said they'd like to) - it ended up being published in Australia - I'll try to dig it out of the archives, if anyone's interested.

Funky, I absolutely love reading your arguments. You have intelligent opinons on just about everything and seem to have the God-given ability to look at both sides of an argument at the same time. Write a book, man. Just like me, your mind wanders off on tangents as you write, and I love that. To answer Ralph's point. The tobacco industry is banned from almost all advertising at the moment. When was the last time you saw the Marlboro Man, strong, brave and handsome gracing our screens (TV or cinema)? In fact I believe all "outdoor" cigarette advertising (posters etc.) is banned as well. The same could happen to drugs. Mississippi, you make some very good points. My article was wishful thinking. But there's nothing wrong with that is there? Justyn and Funky, I don't normally do this because it's self-promotion, but can I point you both towards an article of mine? It's entitled "You Never Know Who to Help" and can be found in my "Odds & Sods" section. Lastly, any government who legalises drugs - even dope - will be committing political suicide, and they know it.

I find it strange that most people find it amusing when hearing about a friend falling down drunk and generally being a twat. If I were to say that at the weekend I was off my head and stayed at home watching the walls, would most people shake their heads and label me totally disgusting and never want anything to do with me? I bet most would. (I'm not saying that I did this by the way, just making a rather crap point!)

I'm not sure why I made the above point. Having re-read it it didn't make my meaning very clear so I give up!!

..not sure about that karl....they seem to be preparing the way at the moment....slight decriminalisation of cannibis has been well received.....drip by drip they may well legalise it...

I don't feel comfortable with the legalisation of all drugs. I've seen too many people suffer the misery caused by these things so I guess I'm just prejudiced in my outlook. But I think there is a case for the legalisation of cannabis. I don't believe everyone who uses cannabis will graduate to hard drug usage. But I do feel that having to buy cannabis from an illegal dealer is the first step towards possible hard drug usage. The reason? A kid wanting to score a bit of blow has to go to a dealer. That link is then forged, the dealer becomes a familiar and 'safe' figure, for want of a better word, I'm too tired to think of a better one at the moment. That kid may come to trust and respect that dealer [please note the word 'may'] and as a result, may trust the dealer's suggestion that they try some of his/her other wares. I think buying cannabis from a dodgy drug dealer is the link between cannabis use and hard drug abuse, not simply the use of cannabis, per se. Sorry if this argument seems imprecise or ambiguous, but it's way past Purplecat's bed time!

Nobody expects the Spanish inquisition! we have one main weapon: Surprise and fear! two, two main weapons, surpise , fear and .... ad infinitum Cardinal fang, read the charges..

it's 2 n 6 for the quick sketch n arfur crown for the full n. (decimalists are excused this comment) pray continue with the argument and excuse my interuption you pharmacueticalists, it's just that ... nobody expects the spanish inquisition...especially in such a serious. fred

What are you on?

He's on Full Monty Python.

Nothing wrong with wishful thinking Karl, I've lived my life on it! The only problem is that eventually you have to deal with reality, and too much of the wishful stuff can make the going very difficult and fertilises extreme dissatisfaction leading to manic depression. It also allows those that have no morals, principles or integrity to exploit the vulnerable. (Yeah I know it sounds a bit extreme, but I also have witnessed a lot of drug abuse, and like to think I know what I'm talking about too, but that doesn't mean I do! I've also suffered from the worst kind of depression too which led me to within 30seconds of suicide and 5yrs of counselling. None of my personal problems were the result of narcotic experimentation though, and I hasten to add that 'I'm alright now' as I'm sure that those of you who have met me would testify.) I can't agree with you viz a viz Funkys arguments though, he is obviously speaking from the point of view of a user going back, I should imagine, a long time. I'm not suggesting for a moment that Funky is an addict or ever was but he is biased toward a scenario he has at least experimented with and enjoyed. His experience is not to be taken as valid for others. I am not blind to the arguments put forward, but it is well worth remembering that every civilisation in history from the Incas, to the Romans and Greeks, and even the British Empire, reached a zenith and then decayed, mostly through excesses of debauchery, including greed, power, sex and drug use. It is my personal belief, and has been for a long time that we are living through the death throes of the most recent 'civilisation'. Whether nuclear fission, doctors hell bent on taking their cloning abilities to the limit, obsession with the ultimate orgasm or pushing the barriers of acceptable drug use to the fullest extent of known possibilities will be the final act in this drama no one knows. What is a reasonable assumption however, is that they will all play a part! Do we really want to risk being responsible for the destruction of everything we hoped for, for our kids?

Karl Sorry to dissopoint you Karl but there is an advertising hoarding across from my offic at the moment stating that Silk Cut is the way to sophistication Its banned from the telly? Do you ever wacth the Embassey World Snooker Championship' or the 'Philip Morris' funded Fomula 1 season. I love you man, but read it first, damm you. Ralph

God my spelling!

Drugs and smoking, western societies and thirld world countries, Spanish inquizition, shamans and perhaps gihad, taperwear and lollipops, endangered species and dealers, nuclear testing and raped children, politically correct and politically incorrect, unemployment, distorted christianism, distorted democracy, ships with "strange" cargo, activists, Genova, 11th of September, breast cancern, AIDS, tested on animals, human clones. I want to have my mind clear. only music. only dancing. only hoping. only fighting. 3000 years ahead. =============== skydolphin-a dolphin that never took drugs. a dolphin praying for all the drug addicts, all those victims. ¸óåôáé Þìáñ/the day will come

Ralph, I stand corrected. However, in my ideal leagalised-drug world (oh, boy, am I going to get into trouble over that one?) it would be possible to have actually no drug related advertising except for the anti-drug campaigns. As a business, though, the whole idea would suck.

*turns a blind eye*

Mississippi, very true... and very useful message. ============= skydolphin

I'm not sure how I feel about the legalisation of all drugs. But I believe, have always believed, that canabis should be legalized for pain relief. I have a condition called endometriosis (won't go into it...it's a bit yukky) and I have to admit that I smoke for pain relief...have to. Nothing else touches it and believe me I've tried everything the doctors would give me. It doesn't make me ill like some of my prescriptions, give me megranes, depression, sickness, extreem tiredness or mood swings. I'm not "a pot head" I don't actually like the smell or the taste...give me straight nicotine anyday. But it allows me to function when otherwise I'd be insane. And my condition is mild compared to say someone with cancer, or MS. I know heroine is used as a base for some prescriptions, and opium. But again...side effects. Nope legalise it and put it right beside paracetamol in your local garage I say.

I don't know, I don't give a hoot about whether people think its morally wrong to take drugs or whatever. I enjoy taking drugs. I don't want to stop. So I guess I am biassed from that point of view. I'am defending my right to do what I like. Defending my freewill. People who take drugs don't really care whether there legal or illegal. They take them anyway. So it's a bit pointless making them illegal cause noone listens. Sometimes I wonder if perhaps people take more drugs because it is illegal. It kind of appeals to the rebellious nature within. Which every young person likes to indulge in from time to time. So a younger person kind of gets a bigger kick out of doing it because the government says, No. So they try these things out to rebel against the state. The BadBoy image. The image which doesn't like being told what to do, the image that don't want to conform man. The image that wants to be wild and untamed. Just because someone in their high pharisee moral perfect mind see's it as wrong; they make everyone else live up to their morals as well. Stuff em man. Party poopers. I can't be bothered with their nicey nice ethical vibe anymore. I mean their basically saying thou shalt not have fun. Because I don't agree with the kind of fun your having. They tell us we got to work nine to five and lead a nice material life. Be a neat and tidy productive functioning member of society. Be a part of the machine. 'Oh you may go to the disco' they say 'but please don't take any of those dancing sweeties as their bad for your health, take alcohol instead which is much better. We are your big brother, do as we say. The world is a material structure, an institution. Please let's keep it that way. No experimental alternative mind states please, keep the good wheel turning. Advancement, technology, progress, the human race is about progress at whatever cost. ' Yeah the cost we all no the cost: pollution, burnt out workaholics, poverty, fatcats and depressed people who can't fit in the machine. I don't like the nanny state. If I want to pop a pill, why can't I? It's my God - given right. What gives another person the right to tell me I can't? I'am a grown man. It's my choice, I have the right to choose what I want to do with my life. I don't want someone else making choices for me. Let me make my own choices. And I will leave others to make their choices. I'am not hurting anyone. I like doing drugs, I think that they have helped me. And the anti-drugs patrol can say what they like. But it aint gonna stop me having a good time. I don't really care. I've been told by loads of people that I'am recking my life. But I'am still here, fit and healthy too. The two drugs I've had the greatest problems with have been alcohol and tobbaco. And did you know that when Europeans took over America they gave bottles of whiskey to the Indians. Some of the Indians became alcoholics and the Europeans took away their land. Some Indians went mad from drinking whiskey and rode their horses over the edge of cliffs. The same thing happend to some of the Aborigines, they got given whiskey and were made into alcoholics and had their land taken from them by the Europeans as well. So what does that tell you about alcohol? Drugs aint everyones cup of tea. But I don't go around telling anybody to go and take drugs. I will never encourage anyone to take them. It's different strokes for different folks. What might be helpful to one person might be bad for another. I don't do a lot of drugs anyway. Actually I only go to a rave once a month and pop pills. And occasionally I get some weed in when I can afford it. Maybe I will drop the odd trip now and then. BUt I never do it to excess. I have the lifestyle well under control. I think drugs have helped to change my attitude about a few things. I see them as tools that help me in my personal growth. I see them as a shamans tool. Like the native American Indians viewed psychedelic drug use. A way to better myself. Sometimes they can be like a shot of life and completely sort my head out. Put everything into the right perspective, help me see truth. See through the madness and see the things that really matter in this life. Made me realise I don't want the microwave and the telly and the nine to five material vibe. I want something else that this culture can't seem to supply. I want freedom and truth, love. Things like ecstasy and mushrooms put me in touch with my real feelings inside, which I can't normally feel because my life is choked by so many material concerns. I could stop taking drugs easily. None of these substances I take are addictive. Maybe oneday I will, I'am thinking about moving to Japan and living in a buddhist monastary for a while. I won't be bothered about drugs then, can take them or leave them. Will be quite happy to chop wood in my orange robe and answer the meditation bell. Without needing something to make me high. It's this society more than anything else, at times I need to escape and experience truth. And well... put simply I enjoy escaping from this world, need to escape from to keep my sanity. I need some kind of a fix, or I would go mad. And what is wrong with escaping at times? Everyone does it, sitting here at my computer is a form of escape. We can all do what we like. It's my life, why worry. And life is short - I want to cram in as many experieinces as I can. So down with the nanny state I say.

oh and another thing everyone who goes out on a friday and saturday night on the town and gets pished - that's escape too. I bet they would hate it if someone turned round to them and told them they weren't allowed to do it anymore. And I doubt they would stop. And also drunks cause far more trouble in town and city centres than druggies do. I've never seen a pillhead go and beat someone up. Pills just make you feel empathy towards everything. When your on ecstasy you just feel purehearted intentions towards folks and want the best for them. It's an empathy drug. And those native Americans used many different psychotrpoic drugs, but it was whiskey which fu*ked them up. Yet I'am sure most people would agree with me in saying that people should have the right to consume alcohol if they want too.

*has never seen a fight in a hash caff*

to funky_seagull Funky, nobody sees a drug-addict as the bad boy/girl of nunny state... the dealers are bad people! not the addicts. can a stoned person drive? suppose you are a parent funky, and your kid had an accident and shortly before the accident you took some drugs, whatever, could you take your child to the hospital, give first aid, stay calm? will your child ever have the feeling of security with a parent that takes drugs??? ask the children funky, they know a lot more than we do. ================================== skydolphin

I think the lengthy inarticulate diatribe above is all the evidence required to prove the case for controls!

Hmmm. Because we've never seen anyone on this forum post a long message that wandered around the point, have we Missi ? I was able to comprehend the points Funky was making without too much trouble. Some of them I agree with, some I don't.

I'm sorry to have to be so crass, but you, Funky Seagull, talk such @!#$ on times. Do you know any Native Americans [or 'Indians' as you so ignorantly call them]? Do you really know anything about Native American religions and cultures, or are you just trying to hop on the New Age 'Native Americans are so cool' bandwagon? I have a good friend in South Dakota who is a full blood Lakota and a religious man - I guess you'd call him a medicine man. When he needs to contact the spirits and the Gods, he uses meditation and visualisation totally unaided by psychedelic or hallucinogenic substances - he has a genuine gift. Furthermore, the 'Indians' you refer to, presumably Native North Americans, have never been too big on hallucinogenic substances. There was a movement during the late 1800's and early 1900's, originating in Mexico and the south western US, which spread to many North American tribes, involvig the use of peyote. This was frowned upon by the vast majority of tribal chiefs and spiritual leaders, because they believed it polluted and corrupted the integrity of tribal religous ceremonies. There was a major crackdown on these peyote ceremonies - they were effectively outlawed by the majority of tribes. The use of mind altering substances may have courted favour with South and Central American tribal groups, but were only a transient factor in Native North American religious practices. As for your comments on your own drug use/abuse, I would say fine, go ahead, do as you please - but for one thing. If you end up totally f***ed up on drugs and in need of specialist health care - why the hell should my taxes pay to rehabilitate you? Is it fair that my house contents insurance premiums are sky high because I live in a high risk area for burglary, usually caried out by junkies wanting to feed their habits? And is it right that I know a little girl, just 9 years old, who's an orphan, because both her parents have died from drug abuse during the last five years? Funky, you sound like an early 20's student, without much of a clue about reality, who probably hails from an over privileged background and is now living what he considers to be a wild, hedonistic, Bohemian lifestyle. Wise up kiddo, drugs are not harmless, cannabis as a substance may be fairly innocuous, but the black market economy that exists around the illicit drugs trade is a pernicious and evil environment. And as for your pills and 'sweeties' - how can you be sure what it is that you're really taking? I suggest you quit reading Castaneda and give 'Confessions of an English Opium Eater' by Thomas De Quincey a read!

i think funky makes perfect sense on this one...it is his right to take drugs...and fair play to him. I have taken numerous drugs in the past and they haven't harmed me and nor have i harmed anyone else. But i have been attacked by a pisshead who was taking a legalised drug.... and the idea that we should only pay our taxes to take care of those who deserve such care.....nonsense.... it's like saying that the only people that the NHS should treat are those who fall ill for no fault of their own. if they could have prevented it, they shouldn't be treated. So I could prevent myself getting on a bus that crashes, or prevent myself crossing the road into the path of a drunk driver....... the nhs was set up to provide treatment for all....and if my taxes go towards the treatment of a heroin addict...great, I have no problem with that..... and vicky makes a great point about the medicinal properties of cannibis...this has been recognised and the government does seem to be moving towards a liberalisation of the drug laws...so that people like vicky who need cannibis for pain relief do not have to respor to breaking the law so ease their pain.... rant over....i'm off to get high...

in the front room? Any spliff going spare?

the coffee market and the Nike trainer market, and the macdonalds market and the nestle market and loads of others. Their evil markets too. These companies cause all kinds of trouble around the world. After this war in Afghanistan is over, we may very well see oil companies rushing over there to pump the oil for all it's worth. It's all got a darkside. All of it. I defend drug-culture because it is part of my way of life. And I defend my right to follow my path. If it makes me ill or I have to go to hospital from taking a bad one then: I will not go to hospital, I will die without medical aid. I know the risks I take, yet I think those risks are worth taking. So there my friend, you will not have to worry about your health insurance or your tax credits or whatever else. I will always defend a person's right to choose to injest a substance if they want. Me? I come from a poor background I'am afraid. Been homeless on a few occasions. Not from an over-priviliged upbringing, so you judged me wrong there. And I'am not on any new age bandwagon. I hate that new age label. Just into tribal stuff. What I am about to say is quite disturbing but it shows how savage humans can be at times: European contact with mescaline began with the Spanish inquizition who reacted with characteristic savagery to anyone who dared to break their laws by eating it. A great many Indians were flogged and sometimes killed when they persisted in using it. One man's eyeballs were said to be gouged out after three days of torture; then the Spaniards cut a crucifix pattern in his belly and turned ravenous dogs loose on his innards. This level of response to the ingestion of peyote in Mexico and San Pedro(another psychotropic plant) in Peru effectively drove the use of both species underground for hundreds of years. Not until the last decades of the 19th century was European interest in the effects of mescaline rekindled. Indeed the alkaloid wasn't even isolated until 1897. Some of the tribes still take peyote to this day. Though I think they had to battle in the Mexican courts to have the right to injest it. Which they won eventually on religous grounds. But the sad thing is the Peyote cactus is now an endangered species. This is because a lot of people have gotten interested in mescaline, and not for religious reasons like the Indians, but for highs. They have harvested it from the wilds with no thought of how it will be replaced, eventually peyote may become extinct. Sadly people are like parasites at times, they can totally lose sensitvity when it comes to the sanctity of things. I feel sorry for the native American Indians(notice I use the words native American) if you must know. Their land was stolen from them, they have had to watch it get polluted and concreted over. It's tragic, it is the sad story of how Europeans took over America. I wish Columbus had never discovered it, so these people could have lived in peace and kept their land. Maybe they had their own tribal wars between themselves there, but nothing as horrific as what the Europeans did to them. Same with the Aborigines in Australia and the Africans too. I grieve for them because they had their land stolen. The Europeans were like parasites that took the Indians resources and cut down their trees, raped their sacred land and claimed it as their own. Hunting and killing the natives for sport. It's sick no sensitivity man. Just cold greed and insanity. Maybe you want to know why I am so interested in tribal people, it's because I hate my society. I hate the western world. I want to go back man. Back to tribal villages, back to nature. Maybe at times it was harsh but at least it was simple. Nature remained unspoilt and there wasn't the constant sound of cars driving past you 24 hours a day. No town centre vibes, were you get mugged and beaten up late at night. no commercialism, no police and no tanks and global warming. Nuclear weapons and overcrowded urban areas. No tarmac roads and dirty polluted air. No homelessness. I want to go back to my roots man. Get away from this cold concrete and money vibe, and that's why I sympathize with the tribal people in the world so much, cause they just want to do the same. And they've had to fight for their right to do the same. Sooner or later people are going to have to face facts. This machine can't live forever, oneday the world will be polluted beyond repair and all the resources will run dry. And it will be over. What you gonna tell the children then? I don't believe technology can save us, and I think we should all feel sorrow for the tragedies that have happend because of this machine. All those third world countries suffering because of this false vision of money. Economy doesn't work, economy is a beast. People starve yet there is enough food to feed the world. Most of it gets chucked into the skips outside the supermarkets. I know because once I used to raid those skips so I could survive. You won't believe how much food they throw away man. You know what else some supermarkets even used to padlock their skips, to stop homeless people raiding them. Sad or what. I will finish with a native American Indian I can't remember who said it though: ' Only when the last tree has died and the last river been poisened and the last fish been caught will we realise we cannot eat money.' ( sorry to get so intense, I aint always like this. But sometimes there are things I feel strongly about. I kind of try and link them all together. But I suppose if enough people do enough shouting about the state of the world, then sooner or later maybe enough people will come together and do something to change it before it sinks. The pen is mightier than the sword so they say. I aint the greatest fencer, but I try my best. I aint under any illusions this world is a sinking ship. Yes I am completely mad, I know, but at the same time I am completely sane.) What is it Liana always quotes me: If a writer is silent, he is lying" Jaroslav Seifert (1901-1986) yeah man that's it!

Martin, if you read my earlier contributions, you'll see I'm in favour of legalising cannabis - it's harmless in my eyes, keeping it illegal simply helps to make drug dealers richer. I've seen truly bad things happen to people I care about because of drug abuse [note the word 'abuse' as opposed to 'use', I do acknowledge that 'use' may not necessarily mean 'abuse']. I may be guilty of not expressing myself clearly earlier - in fact, no 'may be', I am! Unfortunately, the drugs issue is a highly emotive issue for me because of what I've seen happen to so many people I care about. As a result, I get somewhat het up when I see someone insisting that they have a right to assume the risks involved in using drugs. Maybe they do, maybe they don't - from an entirely subjective perspective, I feel they don't have the right to assume that risk because of the hurt they'll cause to others, if use declines into abuse. I don't mean hurt in a physical sense, I mean the pain inflicted from having to watch a loved one descend into that self destructive cycle, witnessing the horror of that person's transformation into someone barely recognisable. That pain is even further intensified when a tiny glimmer of who they used to be occasionally shines through. Yes, I admit my view on this issue is probably one-sided and blinkered. But several people I know are dead from drug abuse and associated issues. A friend of mine lies in a coma and will probably never awake, as a result of a vicious kicking from a dealer he got on the wrong side of, 18 months or so ago. The dealer got a 7 year sentence - Pete got a death sentence. I've never known anyone who used drugs for personal development, just people who wanted to get utterly f***ed - which I guess is why I can't share the perspective of someone like Funky or yourself. It's an alien perspective to me, as no doubt mine is to you. And Funky - apologies for expressing myself so acrimoniously earlier - I guess you're lucky enough not to live in a neighbourhood littered with syringes and plagued by drug related feuds. I'm normally a tolerant person, but my environment has eroded that quality in me when it comes to drugs, and I guess your words struck a very raw nerve. Continue to have your fun, but just be very careful, eh?

Just seen your last post, got a hand injury at the moment, so it's taking me forever to type, I must have been typing mine, painfully slowly, as you were posting yours! Yep Funky, the white man well and truly shafted the Native Americans - they stole their land which was everything to them. Their whole spiritual world was attached [and still is] to the land. The white man just saw its worth in gold. And the whiskey, introduced originally as a bartering item, was soon seen as a weapon - get them p***ed enough and they won't see the land disappearing around them. Sadly, there are people around today who do think, 'wow, Native Americans, cool man' etc lalala. And that in itself, however well meant, is in some ways an assault on their culture - I know a number of Lakota who see it as an attempt to corrupt and steal what's sacred to them. I empathise with your perspective on 'tribalism', for want of a better expression, words are beginning to fail me as I'm utterly shattered! The tribal perspective on so many issues, e.g. the environment, is infinitely less selfish and more progressive than the Eurocentric 'exploit, exploit, exploit' philosophy. A Native American chief, whose name escapes me, said something to the effect of 'we don't inherit the earth from our forefathers, we hold it on trust for future generations'. Amazonian tribes, regarded as savage by so-called civilised nations KNOW that rainforest resources are being exploited to dangerous levels, despite their so called 'savage ignorance'. They understand the threats to the regional ecology and to their own survival. And yet, the quest for the dollar marches mercilessly on, crushing underfoot those who don't worship the dollar sign. So despite our differences over the drugs issue - I think we do have some common ground! Time to close, Purplecat's wounded paw is in need of some rest.

Sorry, my last message is to Funky, forgot to say that!

My last comments were to Funky - didn't make that clear, tried posting a PS but it didn't show - or at least, I can't see it anyway!

Aaargh!

anybody see Terry Jones' article about 'the war on terrorism'? he argues that you cannot conduct war against an abstract noun or something like that. bloody brilliant. this 'war' is a reporting farce. over to our correspondent on the northwestfrontier. the scene. one old t55. one shot fired for camera. one puff of smoke on hill. much glee from 15 yr old tankers. reporter in serious voice. " allied afghan forces advance on the enemy with swift gain of territory. victory is in the air. bollocks. 15,000 pounds of daisy cutter is what is in the air. meanwhile a member of our government runs away to the UK communist party (formerly known as the LibDems) because of 'bullying' by the whips. the world is one soundbite short of a full interview.

yeah the world is a joke man. Something went wrong somewhere. Maybe in the future most of them will live in the cyber world. George Bush and the fatcats and the crazy dictators. Attached to machines with tubes feeding them. Then they can live out their dark fantasies and insanities in the safety of virtual reality. Full of infinite worlds which they can conquer and have their wars - it will feel just like the real thing. They won't know the difference. I've read that in the future it could be possible for this to happen. That people will be able to live in the cyber world and it would feel just as real as this one. They can all do that, whilst the rest of us rebuild the world they left behind and try and live in peace. That would be great. Roll on technology, maybe you aint such a bad thing after all.