Don?t ban the Swastika, ban the Cross

You know Rita, you're right, you're always right!

Namaskaar 1) Swastika certainly seem to have universal claim. Then it is the symbol of the world which was corropted by the intervention of Hitler. All peoples should stand together to redeem the swastika from the negative imaging through adoption by Hitler. 2) It is also true for many years, perhaps under the weight of the paganisation process let loose by Christian theology, all civilisations prefered to distance themselves from the swastika. Hindus however never distanced themselves from the swastika and have an unbroken relationship with it. This inspite of the furious paganisation onslaught by Christian on all Non Abrahamic symbols. The Swastika has lived through Hindu beleifs and practices for many hundred years. 3) It is natural that Hindus who have maintained a strong spiritual, cultural and mystic link with the swastika and who have never degraded it shpould seek to have the proposed ban revoked. 4) Since there is strong claim that the swastika has universal connections, and that the swastika range for many peoples from art, symbolism, charm, spiritual instrument etc, all peoples should stand together against this proposed ban with rrespects to all whether you want the ban removed or not. raviji

There is such a thing as cultural sensitivity. Millions of people in this time, in this place, in our modern world, see the swastika as a symbol of hate. I'd like to add that the Hindus are also pretty quick to speak up when a symbol or use of something they view as religious is used in a manner they disagree with. If the Hindus, or any religion, expect the rest of the planet to be aware of and respect them, then they are going to have to return the favour. If you respect Christianity and the Jewish people, and WWII veterans, then you do not wear a swastika. The swastika may be very old, but there are many old things, and I'm sure the Hindus don't like all of those - and it may not have always meant something bad, but to many people it does, now. So, if you're in a country where the swastika is viewed as good, by all means display it - if you are where someone is going to be offended, then don't. I really think wearing a Swastika in Jerusalem would be in very poor taste and could quite possibly get you in a conflict. Wearing a swastika in North America means you're part of a White Sepremacist organization - not a very welcome group of people in most areas. Don't know about you guys, but I'm not really interested in beating someone because they don't have the same colour of skin that I do. No one country can dictate the meaning of a very simple and basic symbol, worldwide, eh.

there was something on the bbc london news about this, a hindu group trying to reclaim the swastika, ain't going to work, the image of the swastika is way too intertwined with the nazis...

Hi, Living in Taiwan, I am pleased to report that the Swastika is used here in its Buddhist form. Arriving here six years ago, I remember being shocked at seeing something I had previously believed to represent all out evil being displayed in homes, vegetarian restuarants and temples and by people who go about their lives in a healthy and peaceful way. I also think it is important to remember the wave that the Nazis rode in on those years ago. It's awful momentumn was driven by racial and religious intolerance. The above conversation, which I believe is being kept going by some very bright minds, (who I am sure share their abhorrence at the deeds of the Nazis) is rife with intolerance. [%sig%]

Rita, And what came befor Hindu? And before that? And before that? See, this is the basic flaw of religion in general. It doesn't account for time. Superstition accounts for religion though, including Hindu, and time.

blah..all bollocks

You know Rita...all you've done is argue for, not against me...thank you ! Here have a cheese sandwich and smile for camera's darling...would you like a cup char with a lemon twist too! And like I said sugar lips, even stupidity achieves pure genius......So here, have some Best Old Pigweed chutney on that crap you strut to hide beneath? Now stop behaving like Andrea...or does she pay you come here and act like this.....ooopppsss, the secret's out!

You know what, In Bloom, you're right...you're always right?

"One ought to be paid to come to a crap site like this"......hmmmm....interesting expression! So how's the weather in Merry old England Rita: Cha and Chai gave you away btw! All jungles are the same.......Treasure and trash, it's all the same from either side! I use to study monkey's, now I study ants....they make more sense!

You know Rita, you're right, you're always right!

Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but Nova Scotia, where I live, is very culturally diverse. It is not unusual for my son to be the only non-muslim on a soccer team and my first boyfriend was Hindu (mind you it was 4th grade). My first real boyfriend was a Jehova's Witness and I was, at that time, Catholic. I've dated people of different races and religions, with little thought to the differences. My own son now does the same. Members of my immediate family are pagans and also practiced Wicca at one time. The city where I live is primarily English speaking, followed by the nation's second official language: French. In third place we have Arabic. My own family looks like a poster from the UN. And being blonde, few people even believe I'm part of the family. I was often the only "white kid" in the group. There's just no room for intolerance here, sorry. The thing is, to most people the Swastika is representative of evil because it did represent evil. If anyone has an issue with that, they should have taken it up with Hitler when they had the chance. But, in 2005 it is what it is. If it's still a symbol of love where you're at, fine...by all means display it, but please respect other people when you are not home.

Tha swastika,I am aware, symbolises "sakthi" in Hindu Phylosophy. The Hindu religion is so vast and all absorbing that it is a Phylosophy for living rather than a religion like Islam , Christianity or even Sikhism.My apologies if you don't agree. Hitler unfortunately used this symbol for something very bad. He wanted to destry a "nation" and a people compleytely. Not just the Jews in germany but anyone with Jewish blood ALL OVER THE WORLD. As such The swastika has taken on to sybolise a deed altogether vile. In India today some polititians have started spreading the bogey of the Europeans forcifully trying to destroy Indian culture in the past. Christianity was in India even before the comming of europeans . There have been they say a few cases of Portuguese forcefull conversion but this has never been in the scale of forceful Islamic conversions. Christianity has done much to enrich our diverse Indian culture. Indians through the ages have absorbed much from every culture they have come accross. We owe a lot to the christians who started schools and hospitals for the betterment of the wisder society not for just one cast. Each time this cry against conversion comes ,can I ask isn't the Hindu religion also rsposible of conversion? The HARE RAMA groups and the teaching of YOGA and the Gurus who collect money from the west are allpart of conversion attempts. Let people believe what they want -convert if they want too. Its a personal matter. If the Swatika remond people of something bad don't hurt their feeling s and flaunt it. Many Indians who fought in the Wold War II are just as troubled as the jews when they see Hitler's symbol. The cross except perhaps during the Crusades have never symbolised violence. It is a Symbol of LOVE and FORGIVENEss. Banning that will not absolve the evil the swatika came to symbolise

Thank you Mary for a very balanced comment. I've met a lot of Indian christians; a few were converts and chose their faith freely; there are also huge numbers of Mar Thoma christians from Kerala here in Manchester (six hundred Keralan nurses in my wife's hospital) who now have their own church here, in a tradition which predates the British empire by hundreds of years. Then there's the crazy mix of christian groups in Goa... I pass a Hindu temple on my way to church and they don't have any swastikas visible on the outside, although last year we went to Goa with a German friend who was looking for souvenirs in a market and was shocked to find beaded bags on sale with a prominent swastika in the centre of the design!

Hey Rita Your scars are dripping again.....tisk tisk! Now then darling, Can you smile without showing your teeth? Now here's your prise......hands Rita a box a chillies in chocolate, and a some old Gillette G2's....she'll figure it out? Hey Bob...this one's now dispossessed.......she's all yours...earth girls are easy! Humpety humptey.....mango and bacon........I pissed myself laughing when I read that...very good Bob! Jasper lights up an Old Pigweed joint found stashed inside Bob's thermos lid when he wasn't looking last night.....Puff....puffff....damn, it's still wet...puff...pufff....Careful of possessive Bob........ walks of into the gothic haze sucking on a Best Old Pigweed Chutney push-pop...... and smiling!

The Swastika pre-dates Hindu, even on the American continent it can be traced to around 7000 BC. It's a simple geometric pattern, easily thought up by anybody playing with charcoal and a flat rock surface. It has no mystic power and is not the domain of any single religious sect. Essentially, the art work of the Cave-man. There is a certain appeal to the symmetry of the symbol, so it's not difficult for me to understand how superstitious people may have adopted this and many other geometric patterns as symbols of their belief. Be it used as a symbol for the Nazi’s or for religion having to enact laws about it or for people to quiver in fear over its sight or slobber in hatred and anger over it's use, the product of an active imagination, it represents nothing but stupidity in my opinion.

Thank you, Rita....all I want is your best for you, not your worst for them! I know you have talent, and I do not like the way you tear youself down to prove absolutuley nothing! Now stop...please! And I mean this Rita!

Physician, heal thyself.

You're next.....didumms.....be patient .

Okay, so the Aryans (ancient Zoroastrian religion of Iran, not "Aryan" as we use it today) trecked on over the Northern India, hired a secretary and popped out the Vedas around 1,500 BCE. Obviosly then there were plenty of Northern Indians happily working, loving and praying (in one manner or another) - to something before the Aryans arrived. It could well have predated the first formal Hindu thought. So, there was life before Hinduism. It's not a "chicken or the egg story", man had to exist before he could organize; Unless you're suggesting he was actually born with some pre-existing knowledge that was Hinduism, in which case I ask you: what happened to it? If that was the case, genetic diversification wouldn't explain it, unless you're suggesting all non-Hindu beliefs are the result of some mutation. I'm listening.

Who's that coming down your jungle path with murder in her eyes, Rita - is it Kali-me (aka Purplehaze) , like you say, Hinduism is universal. Last time I saw Kali in Trivandrum she was ten feet tall with a big black tongue and I don't think she liked christian me one little bit. Just a symbol, she's not real I told myself. But what do YOU believe?

PS: By "what happened to it" I mean, why did other religions develop?? If it was genetic, there's be no Judaism or Christianity, would there?

In which case, it's a pity it wasn't genetic.

Speaking of mud maps, Canada, Sludge was cloned from gnat....so pay attention, OK! Rita was the donor, btw.... and a bum hair was all it took! Welcome to the "twits-in-plight" zone!

Nahhh...I wax my bikini line: but thanks anyway sweety! I must admit though, Rita, you're about 3 points higher on the IQ scale than Old Mississippi Sludge....That makes 4 btw! That boy really needs to be laid......Do you do mercy missions, Rita? I'll supply you both with a paper bag each.... and I hear you both like chickens?

Kahli - mah is a hindu tiger spirit, isn't it? And if so, Purplehaze would never channel herself into something so weak! A cobra is good......?

Rita, I know little of Hinduism and care even less about it. It's another religion, born of superstition and the origins of its symbols are of no specific interest to me. My point was the existence of the swastika predates the existence of organized religion. I can find no correlation to Hinduism and the prehistoric existence of humans on the American continent. Swastika's have been found in the cave drawings from our ancient ancestors all around the world. To claim that Hindu was the origon is a rather large leap of science. Are you telling me that a boat load of Hindu’s paddled over here and made those drawings 7000 years ago?

Yeah, rocket science will stump her.......that correlation thing is measured in significance ain't it? I mean, anything greater than 42% nowadays must be objective? And not meaning to be rude, Radio, but I reckon I could correlate it was Australian Aboriginals who planted the Swastika in Rita back yard.....I mean they've been carbon dated as being the oldest race on earth.....that is if one accepts atmospheric variables such as heat change, meteor strikes, floods, solar flares, ice ages, and other natural phenomenon? And also if science ever does really see an ATOM to study it, instead of still poffering Heraclitus's (365 BC) old draft? Them Greeks...clever little buggers that lot? Zeno and Parmenedes were right......nothing's changed there in 2400 years! But hang on.....wasn't there a new humanoid species called Hobbit Man recently discovered...6 months ago...a small island just off the coast of Asia, I think? He was three feet tall, co-existed, and very similar to homo-sapiens...but not? Hmmmm....poooof...there goes Budda.... and the margerine too? Or was God a three feet tall dwarf with big feet and monkey fur all over him.....now be very careful? The belly button theory won't prove it either? Hmmm....pooof...their goes Science too and the never ending saga of the great human helix ...bye genome project! Be careful here too, because Darwin and Peter Singer just got shot in the mouth also! Hmmmm...now what will all argue here? Oh, I know...String Theory planted the Swastika...cool?

Aliens....They flew her from Marduk, made crop circles and introduced dousing to the Neanderthal, there was a swastika on the candy wrappers they threw on the ground. You didn’t know that Aliens were the first litter-bugs did you?

So say the Mayans also...interesting unknown culture......2012 their calendar ends...so maybe.... booommmm......up go all the Aliens.... I hope! AD/BC is incorrect though....2012 is really 2000...24 hours don't cut the daily mustard, so to speak..... see Swatch's digital global proprosal for details (atomic clock...Einstein)? Hmmm, Nostradarmus.......we better start ducking? The Aboriginals also have spacemen in cave painting dateing back 10's of thousands of years! They're a very cool tribe....or should I say were? They have a lengend about little hairy men with red eyes....very evil little critters.....an aborginal friend of mine was beaten up by them and they stole his sister's new born baby! Lindy Chamberlain simply blamed a dingo....pure BS! Hobbitt man is conjectured to still be around also.....So the little hairy men with red eyes...hmmmmm...makes one wonder, Yes? They too had a swastika burnt into their foreheads! PS: Nahhh.....I'm lying about the swastika btw...but who care as long as Rita bites.....yes? She's good value to really screw one's mind to write some insane poetry?

Care to jabber on a bit more end-knob-prick-radio?

Well....I finally found it Rita! So what was all the hoo-har about? Cultural and gender identify is a basket case at present. And patriotism has caused far more grief (both physically and ideologically) than any creed ever will! This thing we call the ?SELF? is the absolute worst kind of patriot though... such mind/less/full little tyrants! But then I have never found what myself really means, nor is, as I have to ask others if I am being objective or subjective? And to be objective about anything, any subject matter must be related to all other things of the same or similar integrity(total population)...and I mean every! Therefore, if I want to know who I am, then, I need to ask everyone on the planet.....and that?s impossible to discover as birth and death rates go up and down dramatically! Carl Jaspers, a very wonderful philosopher, once said something like: ?No matter how many times I?ve search inside myself to find this thing called ?self?, I never find it on its own...there?s always something else there with me!? So I just simply refer to myself as non-existeant: A suicidal Nihilist: no harm to anyone but myself! I think the whole world is having an identity crisis right now.....not just selective, or third world, nations! Label?s...my greatest enemy! And ?Characteristic Trait Transference? is becoming a very macro- psychological phenomonon /tragedy......see how kosher Israel is towards the decimation of Lebanon at the moment? And America....grrrr.....we all what they do! JW Bush makes Hitler look like the friggen candy man as far I am concerned! But then Automobile?s kill far more organic matter on this planet than anything ever will or could! I am a pantheist btw! So I don?t know what the answer is to all of this Rita. All we can do is consider things piece by piece and hope that somehow it all hold together, rather than fly to pieces...but the later is far more likely! Now I am aware that proper Hindu culture (whatever that really means) is more about Toleration and Transience than it ever should be about rumination and bigotry. But there is also a Caste system within its culture...so let?s not go there either, shall we? And yes, The British have raped your country in many many ways..and for nothing more than spice, rope and cloth! But who can judge a Nazi other than a Nazi...only light talks to light, if you know what I mean? Or... to kill a monster, one has to become another .....so lets not go there either! Everything is within itself, and within it own right....even stupidity......and even it achieves pure genius in own way! Most scientific breakthroughs have and are always, coincidental or accidental.....and they call that genius...yeah right? And democracy...grrrrr...we won?t go there either/or? Life?s eternal flux will always be creating and recreating! And all we can do as humans is either re-invent or gang up......sad isn?t it?

Rita! I loves ya!

Hey Bob Did you actually know the Swastika's primordial origin was actually Jewish? It was an insignia run in chains around the ceiling meet wall joists of ancient Jewish temples.... But, Shhhhh...it's semantics...and we won't go there either! Here's a match for your pipe.....Puff Puff....and a vegemite and cheese sandwich for lunch! Old Pigweed.....good stuff, Hey?

*chewing on vegemite and cheese sandwich* Professor Bob: Hmmmm...interesting...Yes...thanks...knew that, Prof. Jasp...keep up the good work... *adds large scoop of Old Pigweed best chutney to sandwich*

Actually, I really enjoyed Rita's views in this, as she brings up some very good questions, and equally interesting points. I say... Bravo, sweetie. As this is a far cry from the slanderous momemtum you have been previously known to sling, around from time to time, which has led to your not recieving the credit you so deserve. Stick with writing these, Rita, hon, and go without the badgering, harrassing and insulting... Because you have a ton of potential and some amazing insights, and talent. You truly do. This is an exceptional piece based on personal opinion as to what the writer sees and percieves to be happening in and around her, her family and the world. A great write, Rita. Thank you for sharing it. Lauren

>> ..I, in my third world country, .....have given him an education that gives him wisdom and sensitivity and knowledge that would tell him it would be a wrong thing to do.... << It's a pity you didn't save some of that home-grown wisdom for yourself then, isn't it?

Hey Bob, Can you do Duck calls? And while we are talking about sucking down Old Pigweed with chutney, I fink someone's out wabbitt hunting: So be berry berry quiet! This'll be worth watching...... Here, have a black-pudding and truffle sandwich and kick back.....It's lunch time already! Jasper loads up the bong with Old Hickory.....kicks the dead cat off his favourite chair....... then snuggles in for the night to watch paint dry!

Rita, can you please tell me what higher power gives you permission to write in such an insulting and condescending tone to your fellow man? A Guru, as you call yourself, is someone who would have to earn the respect of his students. I'm not sure why you believe your rudeness has earned you my respect, but I can assure you, it has not. I can also assure you that I am not your "babe" nor will I ever ask you another question, becuase quite frankly, who wants to deal with what you spew back? I don't like bullies Rita, and from what I've just seen, I do believe you are one. You don't like Christians? Well, this Christian certainly didn't treat you as I have been treated by you. Learn some respect before speaking to me again. You cannot love any religion until you learn tolerance of all religions. I would have given you the references for everything I wrote, but I really don't think I want to spend one minute helping you, so go find those for yourself. I will consider you God's challenge for me for the day. Ho parlatto d'altro, quest'oggi? - Il Profeta, G. Kahlil Gibran