suggestion

its a good suggestion too. emily?

Excellent idea. Maybe a piece should have a minimum number of "votes" to be included, to avoid the mutual vote syndrome - or am I being too cynical?

I'll be the first to vote against it. Verbal tussles with a friend over the worth of a certain band called The Moldy Peaches has led me to believe taste is an all-encompassing thing, and it is therefore impossible to arrive at any conclusion as to what the 'best' things are - quality is a qualitative thing (much like time?) Certainly, there are many pieces on ABC Tales that I find hideously bad, and I imagine most people would agree with me in their cases - but there's still room for someone to fall in love with the piece. Jack Kerouac! Still regarded as drivel by many, as a master by just as many. Kurt Vonnegut! No one could be a bigger fan than me - no one could find him more so-so than the girl upstairs. Were this 'Best Of' section to come about, I imagine I would find myself visiting it and saying, of some pieces, "How?!? Why?!? Curse!!" I also don't think being 'liked' by a majority of readers is a good thing for a writer to aim for. Looking at the Independent Review today, Jean Auel has sold 38 million books worldwide - books about "his loins ached with need" style sex scenes in a caveman era! Good Lord! Is that what we're all aiming for?? Rather be a Kurt Vonnegut or Jack Kerouac - not for the majority, but more individual, unique. Now, obviously pulp chicklit is NOT the kind of stuff that writers on this site will go for - but there will be, I imagine, a particular style and a set of parameters that will define what goes into the 'Best Of' section. Those ambitious to get in there will restrict themselves to working within this system. I think we'd be closing possibilities off for ourselves. And plus, many (including myself, stricken as I am with the disease called pride,) will feel snubbed and slightlt bitter if or when they continually fail to get into said section. Apologies for the long reply.

Is that a no then?

I like your idea of a best of ABC tales but I disagree with your idea of having the readers choose the best of ABC. There would be too much politics and too many self promoters. Rather, the editors should choose the best of ABC tales. This wouldn't be perfect but we'd get a better quality of work.

I like the idea chant. I think readers should be the ones to decide what work is the best; seen as they represent the majority. And if you were ever going to get published then it's the readers opinion that counts at the end of the day, not the publishers, as they're the ones who buy the book etc. Though I have to say, I don't like the rating system on abctales at all. As it's too easy to abuse, and if someone don't like you for whatever reason, they can ruin your work by clicking the one star a lot, and no matter how many other readers might like your piece and give it a five star rating it sometimes gets stuck on an average of three. Or if one person gives it a one and three others give it a five it can get stuck on four. And the thing is people go to read your work and it could be a really fine piece of writing, but if it's got an average rating of one or two, they might presume its rubbish and click back on the browser. So I think the rating system is a bit naff personally, and five out of five is too narrow and not a way to decide what the best writing on this site is. I propose an entirely new system. Perhaps some of us who have been here a while and know the ropes; could form like a council, but a balanced council, of varying tastes, so that everyone gets a chance, not just a certain kind of writer. A council composed of people of varying tastes to kill the bias. When one of us finds a piece we like: e-mail it to the other members of the council and discuss the writing between us via email; then if the majority of us agree that its a good piece, we could e-mail the author and ask if it would be ok to discuss their writing in the forums, and get a vote for it from other readers. Then with the authors permission, post it on the discuss writing from abctales forums and ask others on the site to vote on it, and if lots of people agree that it should go into the best writing of abctales category; then put it into the best writing of abctales. Also put a big link on the front page that's easy to see; so that readers who don't know about the forums can see what's happening. And join in when it comes to voting and discussing the piece. This is good too, cause it will mean more people read work and discuss it, as they will have to read a piece of writing before they can vote on it. So it will be positive for increasing reading on the site, and discussion of work. But it will have to be done with sensitivity, and you must get the authors permission to discuss it first. Though this does present a problem, for those who don't display a contact e-mail address. In such a case maybe then if all the council agree about a piece of writing, we could just place it in the best writing from abctales, bypassing the forums. Not sure what to do in that scenario, needs a bit of thought. As everyone might click off their contact e-mail, and then the work doesn't get the opportunity of being read, discussed and voted by a wider audience. No offence to the editors meant here, but there's only four of you, and it's all down to personal taste as to what gets picked. There needs to be a better system whereas the readers of the site get to choose the best pieces of writing I feel. If the council idea sounds too fantastical, perhaps, some of us could volunteer to become editors ourselves. Like what Fay suggested months ago. But make it varied, so that people from lots of different writing styles get to decide on what gets picked. Not just some who are stuck on a certain kind of literature. So there's no personal bias. And every style of author gets a chance. Though the only drawback here is the system would be open to abuse, and some people might pick their mates. So editors would have to be people who have been on this site for a while, and won't do that. Someone who when they pick, put personal stuff behind them and look purely at the work, and not at the character of the author. Its the writing that matters not the person, that way people won't start picking their friends etc. Would have to be people with a mature attitude. And a circle of people who have varied literarature tastes. Not just one particular bias. I empthasize this, as I feel it's important. No bias! Maybe also if you choose to pick something, sometimes before you click the button, you could start a discussion and ask other readers on the site if they feel it should be represented as a best piece of writing. Get the readers to vote on what gets a cherry. That way the piece gets read even more. Maybe the volunteer editors could form a council as well and discuss the writing they want to pick between themselves; and if the majority agrees then it gets picked as a best piece of writing. Also having volunteer editors would help to reduce the workload of the four main editors on this site, who have to sift through mountains of submissions, and I can't imagine that's easy. The way it would work is the four main editors still get their pay, and are known as the four main editors of the site, the head of the council if you like. Also * maybe * they could have a look at volunteer editor submissions and decide amongst themselves who they feel would make a good editor. But without bias to literature tastes, we don't want a whole load of editors who only like one style of writing. Must be varied. Or even better, perhaps we could have a discreet voting system. Those who want to become volunteer editors could put their names down somewhere. And we could all discreetly vote for the ones we feel would make good editors; and maybe the top 5-10 who get the most votes, are sent an e-mail and become volunteer editors from that moment on. I would put my name down to be a voluteer editor, as I don't mind giving some of my time to do this, and it would encourage me to read a lot more too. I'am sure others would put their names down too. Everyone who volunteers remains anonymous, so whoever gets picked as a volunteer, doesn't proclaim it to the world, so the people who get chosen are unknown. Perhaps a better way of doing this - would be to e-mail one of the current editors with our choices, and the people who get the most votes, get sent an e-mail by this editor. Telling them they've been voted and if they would like to become a volunteer editor for abctales. That way the identity of the person is only known to the editor who recieved the e-mails from the voters. And noone knows who got voted, except of course the editor who was e-mailed the votes. A volunteer editor works for free, without pay, cause abctales hasn't got enough money to pay them for their time. So they'll have to be willing to do it out of the good of their heart. There will be no set hours to work in the week, you choose your own hours to suit, and you can log on and work whenever you have the time to spare. Cause some of us have got jobs to do during the day. I think this would be good though man, cause it would encourage more of us to read and more in depth. Though I emphasize: volunteer editors would have to be chosen with care. Not someone who would abuse the system, to promote their mates, or even, perish the thought, themselves. That's sadly the only danger I see that worries me, and where we would have to be very careful. I am not judging any of the current editors though, the things they pick is ussually very good in my opinion, but I do spot a few that go through the net, and felt should also be represented as the best writing on the site, and feel there's not enough variation in editor tastes at the moment. I think the editors do a great job though, I'am not knocking them, so don't think I'am having a dig anyone, cause I'am not. I respect the amount of work you have on your plate totally. These are just spontaneous ideas, and need a lot of thought and discussion. But I definately would like to see more power given to the reader; as to what gets picked as the best writing on the site. After all it's the reader that counts. They're who you're writing for at the end of the day. As without the reader, your work don't get read, so readers are important. Their opinions matter. And giving more power to the readers would encourage more reading and discussion on the site.

I think this is a great idea ~~ but you have to go through some 13,000 pieces to give everything a fair shot. And even if you split up the works by members of "the council," (say 1 person if responsible for looking through and nominating 500 pieces) it is still up to taste and could be bias. Unless everyone goes through every single piece on the site, I just don't see how it could be done fairly. What I could suggest is that "the council" devotes themselves to finding work by ONLY pressing the random button and sends in recommendations to a mediator. Once there are two or three recommendations of the same piece, then it would be put up for discussion by "the council." Then it would have to go through a vote -- I'd say 80-90 percent of the council would have to approve it. In order for this to work without taking years for one piece to pop up, there would have to be about 100 people on the council and they would have to devote themselves to reading 25-50 pieces a day (all the way through). If 100 council members read 50 pieces a day, it would take 26 days for 13,000 pieces to be reviewed, and unless I'm messing up my statistics, about 78 days average before everything would have the chance to be nominated three times (and by that time, there might be 1,000 more pieces!) It's possible but elaborate. That's the only way I can think of for this to be fair. Plus, any authors, relatives, or close friends of an author up for 'the prize' would have to take it upon themselves to abstain from the final vote. With the exception of the author, I think, relatives and close friends could nominate if they happened to randomly pick it.

Some interesting ideas here. I think the site divides almost equally into those who want the better work to be recognised more readily and promoted more, and those who think that it is impossible to really differentiate due to personal taste and that so many other factors come into play that you end up just upsetting more people than you please. And I have to recognise some force in Henstoat's Jack Kerouac theory - I'm not a big fan at all, though accept that he is a good writer - someone who does a very good Kerouac-esque story won't float my boat so much as someone who does a good someoneelse-esque (hey, I'm not giving away clues - and it is a bad thing to write to please me rather than yourselves) story. That said, I am always mindful of this when cherrying, and I do cherry work that isn't to my personal taste that I recognise is well-crafted within that style or genre. I think it is maybe a difference between Best and Favourites. Now, Reader's selections of favourites is an idea I could get behind, but then someone might well say that the Top Ten read ought to represent that. Thinking aloud here - what about having reader's favourites in various genres, which means that people are commenting on the type of stuff they want to read - and after all, most people choose books based on genre rather than what letter it begins with. And, tie in with other comments about feedback - the vote is not a straight "I vote for blah-blah" but the vote takes the form of actual feedback sent to a specially set-up email account at abctales, which is then forwarded to the writer. That has the advantage of making multiple votes less likely, making people think more about their selection and is also useful to the writer. I don't think a person has to read everything on the site to decide their favourite, or everything in a particular genre to decide their favourite in that genre, but if you only get one vote for that category, you'd want to make it count. When we did the Guest pick of the days, the people concerned probably read more than they'd ever read, mindful that they wanted to make sure they were using their pick wisely. It's never going to be "Best", because personal taste plays such a role, but "Favourites voted for by abc readers" seems to be fair and would be interesting.

Funky's idea is brilliant I think

New suggestion: What would be fun is if we do something similar to the "Best of" suggestions (and it would require a smaller number of council members) is if council members look through all work submitted within a week, personally nominates maybe 10 of them. When those votes are tallied, the Top 10 winning pieces would then be officially nominated and published. After a week or so of rigorous discussion on the forums, it would be put up to vote for council members. Or perhaps the author could personally approve of their new work to be reviewed by the council (responding through an automatic e-mail once they submit something), possibly lessening the load. Then after a year, there could be the gala event, and members could vote for the best of the year. This could be expanded into the different genres as well...an ABCtales Academy Awards! Anyway, I think this would adequately pick out some of ABCtales's best work without being so bias. There will always be people who disagree -- but that's what voting is for!

if we had a council, i hope it wouldn't turn out as badly as it does in star wars. andrew might do a palpatine on us and destroy the abc republic from within. just a thought

yeah favourites voted by the readers in the different genres I like the sound of that. maybe those who read and post on these forums, could all do a mixture of reading through different authors abcsets, last ten entered, poem, story of the day, front page, a random, sift through the galleries too etc. Whatever helps us to navigate through all the work on this site. Each to his/her own genre. Then make a hotlist of your favourite pieces, and at the end of the week, sitdown and think about which one you want to pick. When you've made your mind up - post your favourite in these forums - but only choose one. Is hard to choose one piece I know, but I'am thinking it might end up a bit chaotic and hard going if a lot of us pick too many in one go. And I feel the pieces are less likely to be read and given feedback, if there's too many to sift through, and comment on a week. and you can read as many pieces as you like in a day, you don't have to read a staggering number, whatever you feel comfortable with. I'am sure all of us have got some time to spare during the week to do this. If you haven't got any thing you want to nominate then remain silent and don't post anything. What happens is, you post your choice at the end of each week, here in these forums. Say on a Sunday. Write why you chose the piece, and that you nominate it as a readers favourite for that genre. Then everyone else over the course of the following week reads the piece you posted, and writes down if they feel it should be a readers favourite too, and *why* they feel it should be or shouldn't be, and give it a vote. But no bad feedback. If you vote against the piece. Then refrain from tearing it apart like a pack of snarling dogs and argueing about it. Keep the criticism constructive. Say what you didn't like about it in a sensitive way, and make sure you praise something about it as well at the same time. Help to encourage the author. Need to be sensitive to authors man. You wouldn't like it if someone posted a piece of your work on here for all the world to see, and others tore it apart. But be honest in your voting. Don't go with the status quo if you didn't like it. Vote against it if its what you feel. Just be gentle that's all. Who knows oneday it could be you. If at the end of the week enough people agree that it's a piece worthy of representing readers favourites, then perhaps one of the editors could cherry it, or it could get a front page spot for the day. Or even poem/story of the day. Or a special slot called readers favourite of the week. maybe oneday in the future, these pieces of writing could have their own gallery or something, called readers favourites. not sure.. I'am gonna start doing this anyway. Gonna post my first pick of the week this coming Sunday. If it don't get any feedback, then I'll know nobodies up for this, and won't post anymore after this. If anyone wants to join me, then please do. The rule is, you have to read what others have picked and comment on whether you feel it's worthy to be one of the readers favourites and vote. Though if it's not your genre, don't worry about it, like I say each man/woman to their own genre. I can just about read all genres man - *there* are a few that I can't stand though, like monologues, I'am not too keen on them. But I will probably look at all the picks of the week, and comment and vote on them all. As no genre is closed to me really. *Only* post one pick a week though, refrain from multi-picks. This just makes it easier for everyone to take part in this. And ensures each piece gets a better chance of being read and commented on. You can choose others from your hotlist on a later week if you like. So keep your hotlist by your computer at all times. For those weeks when you can't find anything. Also each person creates a seperate thread for each pick. So each piece of writing gets a thread devoted just to it. Instead of them all ending up on one long continuous thread, that becomes a long list, which is difficult to vote on and give feedback. It would just get confusing, and hard going, to scroll through. Just an idea.. I'am gonna kickstart this on Sunday anyway.. as I'am an impulsive impatient sort of person. And can't sit around waiting for ideas to happen foever, I'll jus kickstart it and see how it evolves. if it works I'll keep it up, otherwise I'll stop. think it would be good though, if people did participate in this; and it would mean more stuff on the site gets read and given feedback, which is what all authors want deep down. Also I feel it would be a rewarding thing. As it will help us understand more about what we like about writing. Maybe help us improve technically. And encourage others at the same time, when they see their piece being nominated - a two way thing. * guess that's my few weeks absence from abctales out of the window. Which is ok, I realise now, I can still catch up with my computer work, and do this in my free evenings. No probs. I feel pretty fired up about this actually. I'am up for seeing some positive reading and discussion going on. *

oh yeah and if you're gonna vote or comment, then put a proper e-mail address in the name. Or your vote won't count: this is to stop people voting for their own pieces of writing, by giving false names. The anonymous name thing on the threads is bloody annoying. One of my pet hates, even though I've been guilty of it.

Okay -- It's much less difficult than my ABCtales Academy Awards! I was having my eye on hosting! I will find something to nominate by Sunday, Funky, in support of your cause. Perhaps people who are nominating a piece ought to put some sort of symbol in front of the subject. (Like -- Nomination: Piece Piece Piece by Author) Just so it isn't confused with something else.

oh man, maybe I'am jus getting carried away as usual. abctales academy awards.. hehe oh God that brings awful images to my mind. here's ya symbol: {O^O} Still gonna do it though, I'am not too fussed about creating a: le creme of da crop vibe. That's not my intention. I jus want to generate more reading and positive discussion about writing in the forums. Maybe with a bit of luck help others get a spot on the front page as well. If making a nominating vibe, creates this, then that's good. Quite a few people have said they want to see more discussion about writing in the forums; and for readers to have more choice of what gets picked. Maybe having a readers pick of the week, gives people more of an incentive to get involved.. it aint a bad thing, encourages more reading anyway. I feel chant's onto something here.

The only trouble with basing it on a "pick of the week" is that you already have 17,000 pieces on the site that have missed their chance to be picked! Writers would start editing (maybe changing one word) and resubmitting their work in order to be eligible for the weekly pick. You must have a system that can take account of work already on the site as well as new work being posted.

um, maybe it would help if you could go to the very first work published and read two from there for every one new one? Is there a way of doing that?

unfortunately, as altruistic as all the above ideas are, they have the same future as I do. do. don't shoot me down. you know it won't happen. ugh.

oh no what I mean is, you don't just go to the last ten entered to choose your pick of the week. You peruse peoples abc sets, do an author search. If you're stuck about who to do a search on, then do an author search on one of the people in the forums to start with, check out a few pieces from their abc sets. Or even if you feel like it, a few pieces from each person in the forums abcsets, maybe. Its great doing this, really rewarding, a real relaxing thing to do. I love sitting down and following an abcset. Go to a gallery click on genre. http://www.abctales.com/abcplex/browse.cgi?gt=public&n=20&b=genre Then go check out the horror gallery, the scifi gallery, the 'other fiction' gallery, non-fiction gallery, poetry gallery, autobiographical, historical, erotica... etc etc. There's loads man. You can even choose to look by letter, cherrypick, date entered, author. Lots of different ways to explore. Click on the random button sometimes. Or type a random word into the story search facility and see what stuff comes up. This can be quite fun to do as well sometimes. Check out the current and previous writers of the week as well, check out people from the front page, check out their abc's. Keep your eye open for newcomers on the site, if you see a name you've never heard of, go check out their abc sets. There's lots of different ways to find pieces of writing. And it's not difficult to do, this is an easy site to navigate. Is one of the easiest sites I've seen to navigate on the internet. Spend some time man, have a good mooch around. enjoy it. Look for pieces of writing in lots of different ways, experiment with a new search method. Be creative in your search for writing. You'll be suprised at what you can find when you do this, and it's really enjoyable to do, a really relaxing thing. there's nothing like sitting down with a good cuppa and having a good mooch around the site. That way if you do this, old stories can still be picked for readers choice of the week. You've just got to explore this site man. Dive in and get lost in it.. Don't just keep checking out the last hundred all the time. You're missing out if you do that. There's so much more to find. Try using a different search method for each story or poem if you like. Navigate the site man, that's what its there for. Makes the whole reading experience a lot better and rewarding too. Is amazing what you can dig up when you do this. if you get what I mean.. don't know if that makes much sense. Don't know how many different ways I can phrase the term 'NAVIGATE' If you do this, it don't matter when your work was entered, you don't have to change a word and re-submit it. Explore the site to its potential, learn new ways to navigate it. Be a creative navigator.. That's what I do anyway. I do a mixed search when I'am reading. I like to make my reading experience on this site as varied as I can. And don't think about yourself either, and whether you're gonna be nominated as the readers pick of the week. Your mission here is to encourage others, help them feel good about themselves and their writing. Forget about re-submitting your work to try and get everyones attention.. Trust me What goes round comes round, the universe works like that man. Everybody will get their moment of glory, don't you worry. It's my mission anyway, to try and choose a different writer each week if I can. It might not always happen, I might nominate someone more than once. But I'll do me best man, to get as many writers known as I can. Everyone should try to do the same. But we're all different and work in different ways. Reading is a relaxing, rewarding thing to do. (-:

Now I now why I need to leave this site. Sorry folks I shudder at some of the thoughts expressed. Jeez, Academy Awards, I hope to god it never happens

thinking about it.. i wish to God you could browse by letter in the genre part of the story/poetry gallery.. drives me demented having to click through loads and loads of pages in the non-fiction gallery for example, jus so I can get to the stuff under the letter 'G' or something. Does my head in man. Forgot about that... You can browse all the stories by letter, but you can't browse the genre stories by letter. not that I'am moaning, but it cabbages your head man.. *** Nah Janus mate chill dude.. its not academy awards man, jus readers reading and trieing to encourage others on the site, so don't leave the site.. is cool. maybe I jus got too enthusiastic about the whole thing as usual.. maybe I won't bother to do it man.. maybe it won't work.. I don't think anyone gets what I'am trieing to say... I'll jus post something on here now and then from my own personal list of favourite pieces. and write a description of why I like the piece of writing. What would be cool, is if people actually took time to read and comment on the pieces that are posted on these threads.. cause sometimes I notice a piece gets posted on here and nobody comments on it.. it's embarrassing when that happens.. you jus think, ah well you miserable buggers be like that then. I mean how many peole go through this forum a day.. you know.. surely it can't hurt to have a look at people's recommendations, and write a comment.. is that so hard to do? I'am just as bad though, I've done it loads of times, and I'am gonna make the effort now, to read these recommendations and write a comment, as long as it's not someones 15 chapter novel or something... So maybe forget the readers opinion vibe.. unless loads of people are up for it.. or I might feel like a bit of a prat. but if everyone could make more effort to read an give feedback on pieces that others recommend on these threads, that would be sweet. Instead of leaving some pieces standing alone on a ghost thread.. and others glowing with something like 25 replies or whatever.. what's all that about? and I'am just as guilty as everyone else for doing this.. but I want to change my attitude. I dunno man.. I jus think it's too easy to get apathetic about stuff. Get cliqued out.

sorry funky it's just a personal thing i guess. i can't ever see my writing in a competitive arena. it may sound crap and hard to believe but i only write because of the enjoyment it gives me. I'm amazed that anyone else should even bother to look at it and i don't feel that it is a competitive weapon. i know you'll say but people's opinions dont have to make it a competition and you're right. i appreciate everyone's comments and i'm flattered but i could never envisage me placing people's work in terms of best to worst. i just couldn't do it. sorry to be such a pain in the a.rse. i'm always wittering on

good points Henstoat. i suppose the thought was that if people actually had to argue a case for a piece being included in the new category, it might lead to a deeper appreciation of work. perhaps i don't like Kerouac because i don't see in him the things that you see in him. your arguing his case might open my eyes to his qualities. this would not be a popularity contest. a great deal would depend on how vigorously the case for a particular piece was argued in the forum. if it was just a case of people arriving on a thread and saying 'i liked this piece,' 'yeah, me to', 'i thought it was good,' then there would be no point in doing it. it would have to be the pieces reckoned AND ARGUED to be the best on the site. i hadn't imagined this applying to everything on the site. the link would be something like 'pieces posted from 15th May 2002 onwards that have been judged by the readers to be the best on the site.' have only skimmed through the other comments so far and the main thing i noticed was that Funky_Seagull has SMASHED his record for longest post on the site ever. the World Record Holder truly in awesome form over the long weekend! ps The Moldy Peaches sounds like a dodgy band. i hope you argued against!

There have been lots of thought provoking things said, and while still liking the idea of some form of recognition for good / popular (whatever you like to call it) work. I think that we shouldn’t lose sight of the fact that this site was set up to provide an outlet for people who want to get their work in the public domain. I for one have written far more over the last few months just because I knew there was an outlet for it, not because I thought it was a route to publication. Like everybody, I was a bit sniffy about cherries until I got some, and I’ve experienced the demon-one starrers who pounce on a piece if its got a five from someone. In the first case anonymity is good, because it reduces politicking, in the second case anonymity allows poor little saddoes to get some kicks. The point is that no system can be perfect and someone’s masterpiece is always going to be someone else’s steaming turd. I worry about a known panel of the great and good debating whether or not to “elevate” a piece. I think the forum will become clogged with partisanship and acrimony. I would like ABC to continue to be an outlet for self-expression without any elitism. I also think that it can be a bridge to publication for those who want it, and it’s doing that by linking to critiquing services. Is there any way ABC could help people unable to afford the fees to get their work professionally critiqued?

'..i could never envisage me placing people's work in terms of best to worst..' Janus m8 I see where you are coming from.. creating a best category could maybe create the wrong kinda vibe totally. And hey, you don't witter on half as much as I do.. I'am the current world record holder of witteringness. So if anyone's a pain in the a.rse it's me. And you put yourself down to much dude.. you're a good writer.. from what I've read of your stuff so far, it's been excellent. and chant; '..it would have to be the pieces reckoned AND ARGUED to be the best on the site..' I think maybe argueing vigorously for a piece to be selected, is too stressful for me man. Even though stress is me middle name. So maybe will just drop out now, while the goings good.. feel like a bit of a prat posting such long blurb, i get a bit excitable. I bet I must be the only person on the internet to consistently post such long replies to peoples threads.. like this one's gonna end being, I jus know it.. I think when you spend hours typing out s.hit like this: dhtml_objects['viewer2'].set_html('') dhtml_objects['viewer2'].set_visibility("visible") dhtml_objects['viewer2'].resize_clip_to(top_clip_start, right_clip_start, bottom_clip_start, left_clip_start) wipe_in() } function wipe_out() { if (dhtml_objects['viewer1'].get_clip_width() > 0 && dhtml_objects[['viewer1'].get_clip_height() > 0) { var top_resize = 0 var right_resize = 0 var bottom_resize = 0 var left_resize = 0 if (viewer_data.h_direction == "left") { right_resize = -viewer_data.scrollamount } else if (viewer_data.h_direction == "right") { left_resiaze = viewer_data.scrollamount } else if (viewer_data.h_direction == "both") { left_resize = viewer_data.scrollamount right_resize = -viewer_data.scrollamount } if (viewer_data.v_direction == "down") { bottom_resiaze = viewer_data.scrollamount } else if (viewer_data.v_direction =="up") { top_resize = -viewer_data.scrollamount } else if (viewer_data.v_direction == "both") { bottom_resize = viewer_data.scrollamount top_resize = -viewer_data.scrollamount } dhtml_objects['viewer2'].resize_clip_by(top resize, right_resize, bottom_resize, left_resize) timeout_id = timeout("wipe_in()", viewer_data.scrolldelay) } else { stop_it() } } function stop_it() { clearTimeout(timeout_id) dhtml_objects['viewer'].move_to(viewer_data.left, viewer_data.top) dhtml_objects['viewer'].resize_clip_to(0, viewer_data.width, viewer_data.height, 0) } function radio_active(radio_group) { for (counter = 0; counter < radio_group.length; counter++) { if (radio_group[counter].checked) { return counter } } return -1 } etc etc there's loads more than that, that's just the end of it. There's the wipe_it() function, the slide_it() function, the do_transition() function etc etc don't worry I copy and pasted it from my html editor.. didn't just type all that out.. i'am not that crazy yet. All that code is just to make a fancy slideshow. and when it gets an error, you have to sift through the whole lot to try and find out what's the matter with it. and cause I don't comment my code much I make things difficult for myself.. Drives me mad.. That's my job though.. maybe I should take up woodwork again.. I think that explains my lengthy posts anyway.. why they're always so long and boring.. it's where my heads at a lot of the time... geekcity man. You see, I'am a nerd really. Nobody can be sadder than me. Like caffeine frenzy.. staring with wide anxious eyes at the Medusa screen.. sweating.. somebody help me, my brain can't take no more.. it's a love/hate relationship man.. when things go well and your code works.. it's brill. But when something goes wrong it's frustrating as hell. maybe at times.. i just like to write lengthy posts to get all that frustration out... and it don't matter what the subject is about.. if it interests me.. it takes my mind off computers. though when the pay check comes in a month I'll be blessing my machine.. calling it Jesus. And sending my *twenty* to abctales.. don't you worry. Is kinda where my head is at the moment.. a bit hyper and pepped up.. cause I got so much work to catch up with... and it's my own fault for not doing any, and being just plain idle and getting too high. so forgive my chaoticness. they say computers are logical and it's a true statement cause they are logical.. only they send me illogical.. God knows why.. maybe too much logic = illogic - for humans anyway.. oh hell.. nevermind.. what am I going on about? I've lost the plot again.. I'am a class A casualty man.. merry xmas.

oh no! it's happened again! somebody stop that man! you! yeah, you in the big hat! somebody stop him before he legs it! but seriously, Funky, i always enjoy reading your comments, and thought that this might be an interesting idea to discuss, even if we all reject it as being too clique-oriented / prone to give out the wrong kind of vibe. your enthusiasm is a BREATH OF FRESH AIR!

funky you can write threads of novel length as far as i'm concerned. you always have something valuable to say and you're always nice with it. keep on writing them i can't wait for the next one

funky's post reminds me of when I was in a nerdy group who all had BBC computers and wrote to one another in BBC Basic, with all the tags and meaningless strings of symbols just to show off that we could do it. We used to call it the Assembly Language. Sorry, rambling again. Like Janus, I think we have enough elitism here with the cherries and the ratings and the people who inhabit the forums and take on a mantle of importance by getting their names known in them (like us). I think the only legitimate and worthwhile way to generate a "best of" list would be through reader nomination and reader voting. I would even be inclined to EXCLUDE registered users of the site if this were technically possibly. Then we would have a genuine picture (eventually) of reader preferences. It would start to become meaningful after a few thousand people had voted. Of course no matter how you set it up it would be possible to cheat. Suppose you accepted only one nomination or vote from a given e-mail address. I could go away and create fifty Hotmail and Yahoo and god-knows-what addresses just to give myself fifty votes. No system is going to be fool-proof. The idea of authors arguing the case for their own pieces seems to me to be a non-starter. Many of the best authors would no doubt be contemptuous of such an idea so what you would end up with would be a selection of pieces from the authors with the biggest egos. This whole sorting and grading process, if people really think it is worth doing in the first place, would obviously need to be thought out very carefully and set up in the most fair and fool-proof manner that we could come up with. But the first question is: What exactly are we trying to do? Find the stories that are most popular with the readers? Find which stories the editors like best? Find which authors are best at promoting and recommending their work? Find which authors are most popular with the other authors? Or what? In my opinion the only one of these tasks which is worth attempting is to see which stories the readers like best. You could probably do this by some kind of extension of the rating system, which would need to be rewritten so that "stars" awarded were cumulative and resulted in some kind of popularity rank order. It would still be difficult to accommodate the fact that there are already all those older pieces sitting on the site, and also the faqct that so many visitors just look at the "last ten" or "last fifty" or whatever. I suppose one rather drastic way around it would be to remove that search option entirely so that visitors were forced to choose randomly or by author (which is less unfair. if you like one piece by author X it is reasonable that you should go and look at what else X has written). The more I think about the whole idea the less convinced I am that it's something worth doing. I wonder if floating around behind this proposal is not only the belief that publishers visit the site (for which I know of very little evidence) but also the notion that there might some day be an ABC anthology and writers would like to start the sorting process that will lead to a selection of work for that. When the latter was discussed before the concensus seemed to be that the selection should be made by a panel of the great and the good, perhaps from a list of self (author) nominated pieces. But as far as I know nothing ever came of it.

'..I think we have enough elitism here with the cherries and the ratings and the people who inhabit the forums and take on a mantle of importance by getting their names known in them (like us)..' I don't know about that, mantle of importance eh? Most people on the forums, post here because they like to have a good banter. Not cause they want to get their names known. I don't think there's any elitism when it comes to cherries or ratings either.. one thing I've noticed, is everyone gets a cherry man. Same as if chants idea takes off, everyone will probably get a piece of their writing in the readers favourites too... maybe. It's just about encouraging other writers really, and helping readers to find what work is generally considered to be good. *** Hey chant mate I'am with you.. yeah it was definately an interesting idea to discuss. And I'am stilling willing to back you up on the idea.. if anything ever materialises from this. Sorry I spoil these threads a bit sometimes.. I'am jus fooling around.. is just my strange sense of humour.. not many people get it.. but you seem to, and so does Janus. Which is a relief.

* flexes his fingers * now what shall my next lengthy post be about..? What more of my nerdy skills shall I perform? I is da geek master. only kidding man.. jus messing. Oh God Sirat, I do remember the BBC micro model B computer though.. you used to get them programmes in the magazines and in magazines for the speccy too; with pages of long syntax, that you typed out onto your computer and saved onto tape, and it was supposed to be a game.. but half of them never worked. They were rubbish. I remember sitting down for hours typing out line after line of the code hoping to get a text adventure at the end of it, or some kind of pacman. But it would ussually say after all that typing: "syntax error" or error on line 52 or soemthing. Doing my head in. Then I would comb through it to try and see were the mistakes were, double checking it with the magazine, but could never find any, was just the codes they published in the magazines sometimes were c.rap; don't know how they had the cheek to put them in the magazines.. without checking them out first. Sloppy man..

As I said - for every person that likes the idea, there's someone else who really is turned off by it. Maybe a good idea is to reinstate Chant's old thread of "People who trawl through the site and find their three personal favourites of the week and why" (I'm sure it had a snappier title). I haven't checked this out, but I would guess there are nearly 4,000 cherried pieces by now. So a shorter list of 'reader's faves' has appeal - but I do see where others are coming from. The site primarily exists so that people who wanted to write but didn't want to write purely for their family or desk drawer could put it somewhere that wasn't a vacuum - hopefully they get some responses and hopefully some people that have no vested interest tell the writer that they liked it and why. I would cheerfully fracture limbs to get Tom Saunders or Julian Simpson a book deal and I hope the site can help our very fine writers make that jump, but we're also here for the people who just want to share their stories with others.

Damned straight I argued against the Moldy Peaches! To my ear, they can't sing even vaguely in tune, they can only play two or three chords (two per song is usually the max,) exruciatingly ponderous rhythms and lyrics along the lines of, "Who mistook that steak for chicken? Who'm I gonna stick my dick in?" Worst band I've ever heard in my life. Ever. And yet the NME loves 'em!

well, that doesn't surprise me. the journos at the NME have always been outstanding barrel-scrapers. and given the current state of guitar-based music in this country, they certainly need to be.

His name was Pim.