Tony Martin and his Shooter...

Would he still be alive today if he didn't have a gun that night?

Right. The fact is the @!#$ shot a young man who was retreating in the back with an illegal gun. Some of you out there are parents of young children. As they grow older they may or may not go off the rails. Just think for a second timagine this little scenario: One of your darling little sweethearts becomes a little handy with a screwdriver and a credit card, and manages to break into someones else little white fenced palace to nick whatever they fancy, maybe a collection of Diana memorial plates manufactured by the 'Franklin Mint' or whatever. Imagine then, that some geezer with an illegal gun decides to shoot them in the back and kill them when they are retreating out of terror. Would some of you feel so righteous then? It would be societys fault of course, and poor little Johnny or Julie be martyerd in the eyes of the parent. The criminal would be sent to hell, but would be a hero to some. And the tabloids would still be writing the cheques.. Just think a little eh? Ralph

well Raif seeing as YOU AIN'T got any kids take it from me......forget your pitiful excuses for the kid that died. Yes he was a kid, but was he innocent? No of course he wasn't he was just as intent on doing that farm over as Martin was in pulling that trigger. PS there is a lot to be said for shutting up some ignorant people as well......be warned Raif.

'em 'scuse me Grec......... 'crap' this was my daughter's word. Please define yer arguments more succinctly. So you have BETTER arguments than me? Why cos you advocate to commit crime? When have I ever said that kid deserved to die? My ARGUMENT stands. The kid decided with his accomplice to thieve and rob........yet again. Let me reiterate...I WOULD DEFEND MY FAMILY AT ALL COSTS.........ALWAYS. SO JAIL ME JUST IN CASE I SHOULD HURT ANYBODY IN THE MEANTIME. PS....Did you actually READ my daughters post?

Yeah, my children may go off the rails, but I would hope that I would have the sense not to blame other people for the mess. It all smacks of "I didn't do it. It's not my fault". I teach my children that if you make a mistake, then it's a mistake. But you have to take responsiblity for it. The boy may have been walking away, wanting to leave. He may have been going to pick something up to hit Martin. We'll never know. The point is it's not self-righteous, right wing or anything other than it was a tragic event, but both parties must take some responsibility. If I get in my car after having a few drinks & knock an old lady down, I'll be a drunk driver. It would be my fault. If I had a few drink cos I'm depressed it's a sad situation, but I'm still a drunk driver & the lady is still dead. If someone slipped me a mickey finn & I didn't know, get in my car & am over the limit, then I'm innocent

PPS Martin is not a hero, just an ordinary guy who got sick of being abused by villains. Like I said, any NORMAL person would snap sometime. Perhaps if more people helped their neighbours more and sniped less the world would be a better place to live in.

Oh I apologise. For I didn't think it actually WAS your daughter...and my comments WERE about your daughter's comments, I hadn't seen yours. So I'll redirect to AJ's daughter: don't call my posts crap because I have better arguments. Your post is just a lot of emotional hot air - like mother, like daughter. This is not about protecting your family... (I'll repeat that a bit louder) THIS IS NOT ABOUT PROTECTING YOUR FAMILY. Martin wasn't even protecting HIMSELF. But if your protective of your family, fine, but what's that got to do with Martin. This to me might signify another step down the grim road of gun tolerance...isn't that something you fear? Wouldn't you fear for your children if our society did an America?

Ralph... on this, we disagree. Im not righteous... i sympathise with them all. Why dont you?

I would. I also fear for my children when I see the state of the law, and how badly it protects us.

Stephen - I have just come back ( pissed), but thank you! hope I get to meet you! L x

And I meant to add I am going to respond to this thread soberly tomorrow, rather than absolutely toasted and inaccurate as I am now!!!! That's if thiis thread hasn't slipped into oblivion by tomorrow! x Night all! x

Stephen Sorry, I was going to say something but got carried away with Ralph's self righteousness that I forgot. Obviously you can relate to people singling you out as being different. But the fact that you're saying that you did shoplifting shows that your situation is different. You're not denying that you did these things, but there were reasons why you did them. This guys family is denying he was a mugger, burglar or whatever. People would have more sympathy if they just said "yes he shouldn't have been there, but we think he was walking away, Martin shouldn't have shot him". All I've heard is "He was a lovely person". They may have known another side, but he is not innocent. He may have had a crappy life which forced him into a life of crime & drugs & I work with many people like him, but the majority will admit that they've done things that they shouldn't. That's the difference. It's an emotive subject & there's no real answers to it. It is a tragic waste of life, but as many have posted today, fear for ourselves and our families bring out an animalistic tendencies

What are the police going to do? 24-hr surveillance on your house? And where burglars are concerned, we're not talking about protecting kids, we're talking about protecting property. Burglars don't want a confrontation, they don't want to hurt anyone, they want to get in, grab what they want, and be off. House robberies are a different matter: they are relatively rare, but can involve indiscriminate violence and be extremely traumatic for the victims. If Martin had been faced with a balaclava-ed thug with a sawn-off, we wouldn't be having this discussion issue. I reiterate, the only family-protection issue this particular case highlights is the threat of guns.

Liana and Sabelle: Hold on there Trigger! I was just putting an option out there. We are all self righteous gits at the end of the day. What would you do though? If Honour (still love that name for your daughter) got mixed up in some serious badness like this, how would you react? Whose side would you take.? Everything is safe from a distance. I don't know what I would do (I am childless thank god )but it is a nagging question. The natural cycle of selfishness with regards to parenthood would suggest that the parents of any child would defend their offspring (the Jamie Bulger story is a case in point) against any wrongs that they would commit however vile. Its a mixed up, fucked up world and some bastard is making a packet out of it at our expense. If we carry on like this then we may as well just give up. I am aware of all the contadictions. Ralph

Rubbish Grec........my daughter just happened to be here when I was reading the posts. She decided to post her thoughts. How dare you dismiss them 'Your post is just a lot of emotional hot air - like mother, like daughter.' Perhaps you could define why her deeds and thoughts are emotional hot air? AND for the record I am proud of my kids. I am also proud that my daughter has the courage to stand up for what she believes in. AND what has America got to do with defending your property etc? We ain't talking about drive-by shootings here. We are supposedly discussing the rights and wrongs of defending yourself in your own home. However I seem to have sidetracked from the main issue......do forgive me your legal highness. Perhaps you could elucidate upon your knowlewdge of life and law.

And as for you Jackie Don't play the "I have not got kids ' card! A pathetic argument! You say some valid things sometimes, but not in this case. If one of your children were shot in the back, your response would be that of the outraged, regardless if they deseved it or not (your kind of language I feel.) I was a child myself once you know. What would Germaine do? Ralph

Thought about what might have happened if that shotgun had been taken during a burglary? Someone else might have been killed, somewhere along the line. Someone else may have been the victim. Your child, even. Guns in the hands of the wrong people...always very bad.

well forgive me ........silly AJ. Hey I've only worked hard all of me life. Let the thieves come and get it. For the record Greco. Where do you live........exactly. Perhaps we could have you emotionally raped and vandalised....five times by the same perpertrators and many other times by others. Then see if your argument stands. I don't think so!

Well, I don't mind her dismissing my post as "crap", but it helps if you follow such comments up with a coherent argument, at least. "We ain't talking about drive-by shootings here." Ever heard of the phrase tip of the ice berg? How do you think gangs get hold of guns for drive-buys in the USA? Because society decided EVERYONE has the right to defend him/herself with a gun. So ANYONE can buy one. That includes violent criminals. Beware tolerance of guns at your peril

PS tell your arguments to the old folks that have been battered and beaten when the 'poor burglar was only gonna grab what he could'. Hey Grec........the penny drops! You really seem to have a rare insight into the burglars mind! MMMMMMMMMM. Do you want to tell AJ anything in confidence?

I dont know whose side I would take, probably hers. But that's not what I was saying is it? Goodness me Ralph, you're coming over all tabloid yourself!

I am lucky - only my classroom has been burgled so far (touch wood) and that was traumatic enough (I was very fond of the laptop they took.) But my argument would still stand. I would want justice, but I still wouldn't want or need a gun to protect myself. Even if I was physically attacked, even if I were shot at a with a gun, I still wouldn't want a gun. Tell me you'll never have a gun to protect your family, AJ. I beg you.

I'm not sympathising, AJ, I'm explaining how burglary works, and pointing out that it's not a personal protection issue. What you're talking about is a robbery (force, or threat of force) with the old battered folks. This is pretty rare, though every time it happens it inevitably makes the papers. Burglaries can turn into robberies, especially if the burglar is directly challenged. Usually, they'll scarper like the wind, even if it's a two-year old they're faced with!

Fair point Liana.

No. I dont expect 24 hour protection. However, I do expect them to say a little more than "oh well, they'll be long gone now" when I phone to report that someone has tried to break in. No wonder kids are into it - easy isnt it?

I will never own a gun. As i've said many many times before on different threads I abhor violence in any shape or form. However I WOULD defend myself and family with any means available should the necessity arise. So would it have been OK for Martin to have used a knife then, perhaps. Afterall everybody has knives. Don't they. Is this a new issue? Legal weapons against everyday kitchen items? The argument could go on forever me thinks.

Just agree to differ.

I'm now worrie because Grec has agreed with me. Martin murdered the boy if indeed he was running away. But there are only 2 peope that know whether he was and one is dead. The boy should not have been in the house. He was not invited and we all have the right to security, though we will not have total peace and security because of the worled we live in. We do learn by our mistakes. And I am sorry that AJ's daughter is ill because of hers. We all do silly things and I admire AJ's determination to bring up children with discipline, because she has obviously had a traumatic childhood. I've smoked and don't have cancer, drunk and don't have a liver disease. Some are not so lucky. I warn my children about the dangers of excessive alcohol, drugs etc. My nephew was a father at 20, having to learn that his major concern was now his daughter. My brother was at first going to support them financially, but my mum persuaded him to leave them to learn the responsiblity, but at the same time, give moral support & teach him to support his own family. It is not easy, but necessary because that way we have a gnerations who don't look to take the easy way out and take things that they haven't worked for.

It's heartening to see that Olde English is alive and well and living in the environs of Highbury. I take it you noe worrie that Frannie Jeffers might have taken his last penalty-box dive in a Gunners shirt? I do see your point about Grec, though, sabelle. And yes, I know it was only a typoe (sic).

Hitch you old Spurs supporter you!!! Unfortunately it's late & I can't be bothered to check. I woudl be very pleased if Franny took up the Brums' offer. I've nothing against him personally, but I think that both him and Kanu need to bleed another club dry!!! How do you feel about Petit joining your club!!!!! :-)

Fran remembered his roots when he took that dive...he did it for us toffees, to brighten the day.

AJ: "when somebody decides to act outside the law....they cannot claim the long arm of the law to protect them." If this were true, then the law should have no sympathy with either case, and Martin's circumstances should not have had anything to do with the sentence. He acted outside the law, after all. I don't think it is true, and I don't think the law should be 'protecting' anyone. It's there to keep us *all* within the boundaries of what our society terms 'decent behaviour', and meat out justice if we step outside of those boundaries. It's also there partially to steer us back if we go astray. Small wonder such a massively ambitious idea is often poorly executed. Protecting people though? I guess the idea is that we're all equally protected, if the above aims are accomplished, but it shouldn't be there as a barrier between one 'type' of people and another.

Burglary is wrong. I'm not a wet liberal about this, and I've even agreed with Missi we should bang the bastardos up for a decent stretch; not get all soft of them 'cause they're "promising" poets or whatever. However, shooting someone IN THE BACK while they are RUNNING AWAY is cold-blooded murder, and MORE wrong. Martin is a psycho freak, and wouldn't like to live in a world ruled by people with his value system. Okay, if we want to reduce burglary, let's vote in Martin as PM. Then at least, the burglars will know what to expect, unlike the poor sod he bagged.

Stephen d: Have I any relatives around the age of 16??? Even if I do, why on earth would it be relevant to this case? Mate, you're lost in the simplistic, scare mongering moral relativity that tabloids know and love because it's as far removed from reality as you can possibly get. You're talking about murder, criminal justice and penal reform. Somehow you are hoping to get to the heart of it by referring to a single and quite exceptional case. When really, you're looking into a waxy ear, a dirty fingernail. The whole thing is a side show, a non-issue.

Just wonder if this will be the last post on this thread, it gave me a bit of a head reading all the post, agreed with some and disagreed with others. As an oldie and go to a club one day a week where their all older than me but we have a saying and we all agree this is it. Thank God because of the way of the world today. "WE ARE SO GLAD TO BE LEAVING RATHER THAN COMING IN"...

I haven't written here before but I suffered through the war and i find myself agreeing wit AJ. In the war when other people were threatening our great country we attacked them. We even went into other countrys to attack and yes kill them. What's the diffrrence between killing someone who threatens to attack our country and killing someone who is actually trespassing on our property if we are in fear for our life.

But you see, it's considered rather bad military form, to kill soldiers that are retreating and (especially) surrendering. In fact, we may even be talking war crimes.

Marc...I largely agree with your point of view on this. However, take it from an repeat-offender and some-time idiot - taking issue with Stephen's personal attitude and conduct rather than, specifically, his arguments, will thicken the wall between the two of you. That last post was largely sound, (certainly moreso than me when I get bad,) but the "Mate, you're lost..." paragraph can only rub Stephen up the wrong way, as it's a character judgement. My reaction was, "Uh oh..." Um...don't mean to sound like a know-it-all, but felt compelled to intervene over this matter. Forgive me if I sound patronising or something. Good analogy though. Very good.

Finally pulled yourself away from the Hitch forum, Hen? ;-) I've a feeling that's where Missi is hiding out. One doesn't have to know anything on that forum; harbour deep-seated anger about something that happened to you personally; and boot off about asylum seekers if the arguments going badly. Heh heh.

Oh my! It's going to go off now. Duck everyone!

Nah Ralph. Missi is scared of me these days. (Heh heh.)

just clearing up a few things that i mentioned on this thread. Up to 85% of prisoners in the penal system may be in fact have one thing in common. studys could show that most of these people have had some kind of disturbance in childhood that their mind could not accept causing the person to acct diferently and not letting them act in the confines of society. i used the word abuse in the thread but you interpet this word as being driven by such things as television, music, people more so, including emotional, physical, ect. in

Grec..........Missi is scared of nobody. Raif...........take yer brains out of yer @!#$.(on the assumption that you have any) Hen........grow up and look at life, real life. For the record, my kids ain't angels. Three of 'em. But the worst they ever did was get pissed. And should any of 'em have decided to go and rob or beat up old folks then I would be the first to batter 'em. However on the other hand I would still love 'em. So what DOES that make ME? HUMAN I think. But I wouldn't condone their actions. My son, Down's Syndrome stole a magazine from Tesco. He was marched back and had to give the magazine back to the security guard. My youngest daughter stole a little chicken from her teacher when she was five. I marched her to school and made her give it back. My other daughter got pissed when she was sixteen.....took an undisclosed amount of painkillers. I told the doctor to pump her and stab her with the bigest syringe he could find. Hard mother, Maybe. But they never did anything like it again. You see I love 'em and they know it. Maybe the kid that got shot didn't have such love. Maybe Martin was so terrified he just acted instinctively. Who knows? What I DO know is I would protect my family from all. Always

But you accept your kids can make bad choices...no matter how well you bring them up. My mum didn't bring me up to take drugs, get speeding tickets, or shout at people. But I still do. There's always an element of no-control. Everyone makes bad choices. So what if one of your kids did. And trespassed on Martin's patch, hoping to nick a bit of farming equipment to be able to afford the latest alcopop... ..if it COULD happen (and it COULD)... how would you feel?

BAD CHOICES.........a five year old knicking a chicken A teenager getting pissed. A Down's Syndrome.............bollocks Grec

and like I said.............I WOULD LOVE 'EM, but would not back 'em up.

AJ's right Your kids are your kids. They make mistakes & you're there to put things right. That doesn't mean indulging them My friend did exactly what AJ did with her daughter & made her embarassed about stealing. She's never done it again. They call it tough love, I call it loving discipline

The point is that whether he was running away or not, he shouldn't have been in someone else's property uninvited. & all this crap about him being a lovely person, can you be wonderful & be a mugger & burglar? NO.

It was an illegal gun Sabelle. The boy was a drug addict totally fucked by society and the supposed' care in the community', he got shoy through the inadequecey of society to care. He was retreating, he got shot in the back. Only cowards do that kind of thing. Ralph

I'm not saying he couldn't have dealt with it in another way, but I am saying the victim has to take responsiblity for the fact that he put himself in the situation. Maybe he was a coward, frightened & scared witless and at the end of his tether. Tony Martin is not responsible for the fact that the government does not care for these people & I would hate to be put in this situation cos I would have to protect my family without standing & wondering whether the guy would kill me & my family