Tony Martin and his Shooter...

And maybe if these young men and women where not commiting crime they would be thrown themselfs of bridges, maybe this is the only outlet open to them to show their contempt for the hateful world we live in. And if true, is to criminalise really the proper thing to do> Valid or not?

Oh by the way Sabelle i am white and was brought up as catholic in a middle class housing estate in Glasgow and i myself know the meaning of hatred bullying intimidation and violence. >not that i believe in religions any more<

I don't see Martin's burglars as innocent. The fact that a sixteen year old died is tragic. I don't happen to agree with Stephen that he was innocent - for sure a young adult who, no doubt, had tough life, and was probably through his family life experiences, peer pressure and drug addcition, led to the point of no return - literally. However, both him and his accomplice knew they were breaking the law, and not for the first time. I agree with Sabelle with regard to her point about prejudice and living within the law. I am sensitve to Stephen's personal comment posted abov,. based on his own personal experiences, and am curious to know what you meant by 'I was one of those teenagers'...If I understand correctly(?) you broke the law - if so, what made you stop, think and change your life - if I am reading this right? Actually, maybe I am being too personal here so tell me tome to mind my own business by all means!!!

Fran the man? OK. Well if the Toffees would like to take him back we're open to offers. 2 donkeys and a couple of goats? Kevin Campbell - donkey Radzinski - donkey Rooney - goat Max-Moore - goat

Stephen, I was posting as you were writing, you have partially answered the above question.

Stephen I'm not unsympathetic to the trials peole go through, & I agree with the phrase 'but for the grace of god..., but I can't see them as innocent. Victims maybe, I'm lucky to have wonderful parents, some don't & struggle through life without support. As LL says, it is a tragic course of events

LL the post above and also i had alot issues relating to my gender which where impossible to discuss in Glasgow when i was a child. In Glasgow in the 70s and 80s most people where brought up in households and schools where religion and bigotry festered causing a lot of heartache. To an extent it still exists today yet the people are starting to wake up. As for my crime it was petty and always to do with shoplifting. I was locked up in young offenders institutes for quite a long time and at different points in my life. the circle would be the same yoi discharge homelessness despair more crime drugs self harm suicide attempts. I knew from a very young age looking back now about 6 that something was different . Finally only this year but having known all along what was up and what drove me to the despair of the life i was leading that i had to express myself differently. I could not do this where iwa brought up or even come to terms with it so that and all the other bullying crap made my head wrecked and helped push me in to the life i would end up leading for the next fifteen years. Oh the biigots and the sectarianists in Scotland will shout its all my fault as they go about preaching Gods word of suffer til you die, and no we are closer to god. How can you wear eye shadow your a man you will go to hell, but this my friend is simply not the case and society is moving towards a greater understanding of the situation. I was a very smart child until i encountered bullying and realsing i was different but never got to talk about my problems thus what endured. That was maybe a bit more than needed but anyway.

I've just read this crap.I'm 29yrs old wiv a 4yr old son.I've been pissed up on many occasion even to present day and back in my younger years taken wizz,and not once on many of these occasions have I ever wanted to to trespass on other peoples property or wanted to harm another human being.I have been brought up to know what is right and wrong.(this may seem hyprocritical with me taking drugs) however i know what is right and wrong and when to draw the line.Like my mother I am very openminded to alot of things,a liberty alot of people don't always have.I would defend my son to my dying day but the moment he takes another persons life then I wouldn'tWhat Tony Martin did was protect his property and his life.What ever the reason the perpertrators were on that property at the end of the day they shouldn't have been there and if it comes to my life or my family I will take the necessary precautions.This in the eyes of the law iis called defence going out with the intention to break into someone elses property is a crime.May I also state that I do think it's wrong for this story to be sensationalised and money to be made from this sad case but to learn a strong lesson in life,don't break the law and you won't pay the consequenses.Oh I might have taken drugs but i did pay the price by suffering with problems with my liver just a small price to pay for a small crime and believe me when my mother found out she wasn't opening her arms out with pity.FAR FROM IT!The bigger the crime the bigger the price no matter who's son or daughter you are!

Whether or not the boy was innocent is beside the point. Martin took the law into his own hands. He is a criminal and his motive for using an illegal weapon is as unjustifiable as the burglars but even more pointless.

I repeat, I don't think he's a criminal at all and there should never have even been a trial; the Crown Prosecution Service, and the police in general are a disgrace, they focus on easy meat, the relatively law-abiding who won't think to abscond or threaten witnesses. Then they can boost their clear-up and conviction rates at no risk to themselves: they seem strangely reluctant to go after career criminals, however. So an elderly man, who doesn't cause harm to anyone if left alone, is at bay in his own home at night by three thugs intent on stealing his belongings. Dear oh dear, I'd better let them have what they want; maybe I ought to give them a hand loading their car and they won't murder me. And then I can ring the police and if they can be bothered to get off their lazy fat a*ses and drive all the way out here sometime in the next week they will be very helpful and tell me to plant some prickly bushes and get a security light ... come on you lot, you're supposed to be creative people, can't you imagine his fear and anger?

yeah right

what a load of bollocks....... when somebody decides to act outside the law....they cannot claim the long arm of the law to protect them. (commonsense). I was married to a copper. I had a stalker. I went to bed armed with pepper, an axe and a knife. If the stalker had ever got to me in my bed and I had used any of those weapons of self defense I would have committed the offence. As I told me husband then and stand by today, I would die defending my family and face the consequences. The law is an @!#$. For the record the same two had burglered Martin 5 times, the police did nothing. What was the man supposed to do? Lay down and die. I don't think so! The man has done his time. I don't agree with him writing a book. Before anybody eloquently decides that Martin is a scumbag. Look to your heart and ask what would YOU do, in the same circumstances. Lie down and let 'em walk all over you or fight, by whatever means possible. I would. And I am the most anti violent person you could ever want to meet. So give the man a break...........remember the old adage.....Ye who is without sin, cast the first stone.

For the record......... I was abused both physically and sexually, from being born. My mother battered me. Her partners sexually abused me. I have stolen (from shops in Edinburgh) I ran away from my mother. I was put away, because of it. Bad girl? I may have appeared to be so. But all I have ever wanted was to be loved. So when I had kids, I loved 'em. Never spoiled 'em. But I have boundaries......... In the words of my kids..........'they would have been mortified to lose the love and respect of me their mother'. We don't get lessons in love, however I knew if I did what my mother failed to do, I could do it better. I ain't smug, just pleased that my kids are good (sometimes infuriating,) adults. There but for the grace go I. Does that answer you Grec?

Fear and anger, exactly. Its true, if someone was coming for me, i'd have them... especially if they kept on doing it, and the police did nothing. To assume anyone would do differently is absurd. sorry, and Ive worked in "the sector" for years... of course we'd all rather people didnt get into the state that Tony Brendon and Fred were in. Common sense.

Oops. Am not really in the bushes outside - dont shoot!!

Wow I'm exhausted after reading that. First of all, I don't think the burglar intended to hurt anyone... ...Martin didn't need to protect his life, the boy was shot IN THE BACK. He was running away, so his life/property were not in any danger anymore. Maybe he wanted to stop him somehow, so justice could be dealt out - I don't know what went through his mind - but it certainly was not, "I'm going to die." "The bigger the crime the bigger the price no matter who's son or daughter you are!" Not in this case. Murder (even manslaughter, if that's what you think this is) is a bigger crime than burglary. Remind me who paid the bigger price again? And don't call my posts "crap" just because I have better arguments than you. (And Sab: you're not skirting round the issue anymore, and I agree with you.)