threads

agree with you totally Liana. on a different vein Another thing that pisses me off is when shops advertise their stationary, school clothes etc with the slogan "Back to skool". I don't mind deliberate mispellings for us when there is humour behind it (e'g ..old skool music night) but it might make a 7 year old poor speller think this really is how you spell the word school. Or am I just being a fussy killjoy?

No just like an old Nun.

Too Kool For Skool, I guess. I agree about the T-shirt and underwear thing. I can see some little kid wanting to be popular like Beyonce or Kiley (sp?) without fully understanding what is going on, at least not at age 3. The 9yo, however, knows exactly what's going on with this stuff, though she might well not understand the consequences. Write the letter, Liana!

Kids' clothes are getting ridiculous. I do work experience, helping out at a secondary school one day a week, in a class of 11-12 yr olds, and some of those girls wear mini skirts - and I mean MINI skirts - and knee high boots to skool! I feel like an old schoolmarm or something when I see them, because I always shake my head and tut disapprovingly. Plus they must be freezing. [%sig%]

"Haven't we learned enough from the Wests and Huntleys et al?" What did we learn from Huntley? Huntley got turned on by piggin' Man Yoo shirts - an' trust me when I tell thee those fookers won't stop selling out to no bugger. As Liana says, it's not that these things are fail-safe paedomagnets, it's that they're just plain fookin' WRONG!

Yeah BHS were selling those at Xmas and I got all irate about it.....didn't make the link to paedophiles though, but I did wonder at the mentality of anyone that'd buy them. Complain and the shop will say they are catering to customer demands but I can hardly imagine a queue of parents at the customer service desk asking when they are they going to start stocking thongs for four year olds?

Yeah, the stores create demand through advertising, not the other way around.

I rather cynically suspect that any designer who creates clothes for three year olds with "Sex Kitten" written on it, is just waiting for the publicity that a nice complaint will generate - likewise the store that stocks it. What would be very good to do would be to Michael Moore it - take along some adult victims of child sex abuse to the Head Office of the story and ask them to explain to the victims why exactly they felt 'sex kitten' was an appropriate thing for a three year old to wear.

As a mother of 2 young kids I notice this all the time. My aunt recently sent my son a t-shirt with the slogan 'No Rules'. I don't want to be a dragon but there's no way I would let him wear it! I find it hard enough to teach him right from wrong without sending him mixed messages. A lot of boys' clothes have slogans like 'Little Monster' and 'Me Me Me'. Also grafitti-style images of kiddie gangs, skateboys etc. It might sound tame but there's a thin line between boyish mischief and full-blown delinquency. It seems that consumerism is priming our kids to be either gangsters or sex-bombs and the shops, the media show no sense of responsibility. [%sig%]

the designers are as guilty as the shops who are as guilty as the parents who are as guilty the beasts who are a guilty as the general ignorant public who are as guilty as...maybe it wont be to long before china and the east do the west a favour.. and then they will all plead ignorance, of course..

I entirely empathise with your words Tara, I have three boys. Media/ marketing is hammering home its idea of differences between the sexes, and what this denotes in terms of behaviour. It's suffocating. Most of the time such definitions seem to act as an excuse for boys to bahave badly and girls to be obsessed with their appearance (which must be absolutley recognisable as feminine). In secondary schools these days you have to be seen to fit into a distinct category to be accepted. Girls must have long sleek hair, wear a lot of make-up and carry a small handbag, wear heels etc. Boys must be butch and bad and have the right gear. I've noticed a trend towards early identification of homosexuality in schools too, where boys who tend to a certain way of behaving soon get defined as gay and then they accept it and don't hide it, though they may suffer much taunting. This is a big change from when I was at school. There don't seem to be so many girls confidently carrying off a lesbian identity though, although perhaps it's just that I haven't come across them where I've been. Statistically there seem to be more gay boys.

It's more socially acceptable in general to be a gay man than a gay woman. Mainly because of the stereotypical attributes - gay men are seen as having a great fashion sense and bitchy sense of humour, etc, and gay women are seen as fat dykes who hate men. Go figure. [%sig%]

Slightly off the topic here, but watching Little Britain the other day I am highly amused by the idea of a Sandy Toksvig House, what do people think this is trying to say, and do you like Toksvig?

Toksvig? ?????

Writer and Broadcaster, founder member of Comedy Store Players, team captain for a long time on Call My Bluff, novelist (Whistling for the Elephants, Flying Under Bridges and The Gladys Society) and children's author, first-class degree from Cambridge, Norweigan descent, brought up mainly in States, adopted British nationality.

Oh, forgot to add, lesbian.

I like Sandy Toksvig - mainly becasue she was chosen as the 'celebrity' to hand out the degrees to my wife's year at Northbrook College. She made a really funny speech, mainly taking the p**s out of little colleges like Northbrook. It had the students roaring with laughter (no I haven't married a very young woman - she went to College late in life!) whilst the assembled staff had to sit with rigid mouths on the platform. The Principal was shocked whilst most of the others really wanted to laugh but felt they couldn't - it just made it all the funnier. Good on her.

Hey, lucky you, that's not fair. I had a miserable faced Ted Hughes at my degree ceremony getting an honorary degree. I read one of Toksvig's novels recently and was reasonably impressed. The only thing that grates slightly is the materially privileged vantage point she bounces off to have a little moan albeit in a witty way. The other odd thing that she freely admits to in her writing is that the accent is completely manufactured. Sometimes it's difficult to distinguish her from Alan Coran. When interviewed about her weight loss recently, she gave the following advice. 'You see that thing called food, don't put it in your mouth.' Don't think she's going to write a diet book.

*gasps* Ted HUGHES???? And you are coveting the boresvig?

Sorry Liana, but he just sat there with his chin on his chest and the corners of his mouth pointing to hell. I do appreciate he's your thing, but hey, Sandi gets a laugh and we need some laughs, and Felicity thinks her eyes are amazing. By the way, that's how you spell her name.

Have you hyperventilated Liana,..hey, Liana, are you still alive? Breathe into a brown paper bag, you'll be fine. I have trouble controlling my heart-rate when I think of Sandi, we're in the same boat.

Since 3 year old's probably can't read, let alone understand, the words 'Sex Kitten' - it leaves you with the inescapable conclusion that some mothers, somewhere must think it 'cute' - or it's a subtle and cunning plan to catch paedos. The only sensible reason I can think of is that younger children may want to mimic their older sisters by wearing similar clothes (as they do playing with make up and clopping about in adult high heels) and some parents seem to buy their kids anything they want just to shut them up! When you say 3 upwards I take it that they do a range up into the teens.

no... to about 10 - 11. grrrrr

Reminds me of those disgusting beauty pageants they have for little un's in the USA. And that Channel 4 series 'Mini Pops,' The store mentioned should be taken to task over this policy.

It's up to the parents/guardians to make the right choice, isn't it? These things are horrible, but at least the nine year olds aren't winding bobbins in a factory any more as we used to make them do. Life is a minefield of choices (that could have been the B-side to Ronan Keating's "Life is a Rollercoaster".)

no Jeff.. I dont agree. If some parents are stupid enough to think that these clothes are ok for their daughters to wear, then the daughters would wear them without knowing of the possible consequences. They arent old enough to make an informed decision... The store involved should not be holding lines like this. I cant see how on earth they think it's an ok thing to do - or anyone at all for that matter.

You don't need to pass an intelligence test to have children, though, do you? If parents are irresponsible over these clothes, what are they like over more serious issues, like doing your homework, not staying out all night, getting up to mischief and so on? Kids will test the rules as far as they go sometimes. If the parents don't set parameters, why is it suddenly society's fault when these kids are walking around acting like adults at the age of 11? It's never the parent's fault. If kids are dragged up how can we expect them to know any better? Companies will always try to exploit ignorance and weakness. If parents had any moral fibre or framework in their lives they wouldn't contemplate buying such inappropriate stuff in the first place, would they?

no.. but, i repeat - it's hardly the fault of the kid, now is it? And I'm sorry, but i think that a store being allowed to run a line of exotic lingerie for nine year olds, is rather more serious than "not doing your homework". You obviously disagree!!

I didn't say that, Liana. I was stating that it is up to parents to set moral guidelines for their children. As a parent, you obviously would never buy clothes like that for a child. I wouldn't either. I don't agree that the shop should be selling them, but it is. As such, it is up to the consumer to vote with their feet. Parents should be responsible. If a kid is clamouring for this kind of clothing then I would say "no". But the root problem is much deeper, I suspect. Children are watching wall to wall TV and I can fully understand why they want to be like the pop princesses who are on TV all the time. But parents can say "no" can't they? The Conservatives opened up the airwaves to cable and multi-channels and so on. For me this is far more dangerous than the Internet.

yup, i agree ... but I also think that the shop should not be *allowed* to sell this kind of stuff... people seem to be developing a stretchier line of what is acceptable for children to wear / watch / listen to, and the more that shops like this are allowed to stock these lines, the further that line stretches. By doing nothing, and allowing it to go ahead, eventually it becomes acceptable. Kids are innocent for such a miniscule amount of time... that time should be cherished and protected. By the way, I kicked up a stink. I might even write a letter to the papers tomorrow, signed "Disgusted of Wainfleet". Haha.

I second that emotion.

Good for you Liana, I think it is absolutely outrageous. Haven't we learned enough from the Wests and Huntleys et al? It is also deeply sad that there are families out there who let this stuff come into their lives and take over their minds. Much of popular culture is a kind of brain washing, though many would say it's choice etc. Today I was with some kids in a special unit in Doncaster. An 11 year old boy was 'bragging' to me about the fact that his mother had been tagged for 5 months for robbery and driving stolen vehicles with her boyfriend. The other boys around him were bragging about times when they had been picked up by the police too. The 11 year old had been in a police cell, had spent all his time kicking the door and shouting at the cops 'to drive them mad'. And I have to try to teach these kids music.