Battle of Maze Hill

My brother-in-law lives in Montana with his wife and three kids. They live in a massive trailor home. We spent 10 days with them a couple of years ago, and when you spend time in a place where there's nothing to do (except for a fabulous 200-mile trip through Yellowstone Park), after a couple of days you taking interest things around you, such as the history of the place. I found myself fascinated by the Lewis & Clark Expedition of 1805. Thomas Jefferson commissioned them to discover what wonders lay west between the Mississippi River and the Pacific Ocean. Three attempts, between 1783 and 1801, had already failed, but this two-year expedition was a success. Sacajawea (or Sacagawea), the Native American girl who guided them with her baby strapped to her back proved to be a real star, as did York, the black slave, for this was the first time in American history when a black person and a woman were allowed to have a vote on important issues. This expedition is well worth reading up on.

Wow, boy have I gone and done it now. I generally don't talk politics, because for the most part, it's a waste of time heheheheh... George Bush.... I personally don't care for the man. I see little in his moral character to find encouraging. When he was governer of Texas, I actually saw him do an interview on TV where he was laughing about and proud of executing a man. I don't believe he has a single compasionate bone in his body and as such should not be re-elected. He's a disgrace as a figure head. As for his being elected, well, I don't buy the argument that he "stole" the election. It seems that many in this country and abroad are ignorant of the American electoral process. There appears to be a common misconception that presidents are elected by the public vote. This is not true. The law on the matter is that presidents are elected by an electoral college, not the public. The public election is merely a show of support. Bush's election to office was not the first instance of a president being elected without having the majority of the popular vote. He had the majority of electoral college votes, which is all he needed to accomplish and can happen every election. The Democrats all screamed about him not having the popular vote, but this is sour grapes, as the LAW was followed to the letter, and for technical reasons of the LAW, Bush was elected without a popular majority. Now the funny thing is...The same people screaming about the popular vote / electoral vote technicality at the top of their lungs are mysterously silent on the subject of changing the law! There has been no concerted effort whatsoever to modify the law, they seem content to just stand there and shout "UNFAIR", when I'd bet my life savings on the fact that if the circumstances were reversed, their opinions would also be reversed. That's all I'm gonna say about it. I really don't give a shit, cause Bush will go the same way as others and History will judge him as an fool in my opinion. What scares me is the fact that half the country here is more foolish than he is.

The majority of British governments are elected by a minority of the popular vote and we also have constituencies (about 600 odd) that form an electoral college. I think Karl was talking about the whole Florida votes fiasco, that would have decided the election in Gore's favour had certain votes in that state been counted.

I recall that after the election, a couple of study's were done on that Florida thing and it was determined that, if they had done the count differently, Bush would have still won by a greater margin. The suggestion though was that Bush's brother influenced the election results, however, there was never any evidence of that happening, just a bizarre turn of events in something that was extremely important.

I wonder who did the studies... I dunno. It's just all so corrupt. Not much better here though...

We'll never really know, but it can't be ideal for the 'worlds biggest democrarcy' to have Jed overseeing George's potentially flaky victory.

"World's biggest democracy"?? Gosh those darn Yankees have been going it some if they've managed to outpopulate India.

Although I don't have the evidence to hand - and it's late, so I can't be bothered looking it up - Smillieboy is correct, I was indeed referring to the whole Florida fiasco where blacks who'd been convicted of felonies. Not only that, family members weren't allowed to vote, and in many cases blacks with SIMILAR SOUNDING NAMES to convicted felons were not allowed to vote either. Strange, that, seeing as Mrs. Bush was caught attempting to smuggle jewellery brought abroad into the country without customs taxes ..... which is a felony. She was let off, I believe. I didn't know about the Electoral College but, as Smillieboy points out, we don't live in a democracy here in England either, and we never have done.

Neil, please notice that 'worlds biggest democracy' was in quotation marks. It is only what they may have us believe.

Our sytem is also technically an electoral college. The difference is that all our constituencies count for one and in the US the individual states count for different amounts according to their size/population.

I don't know about "The World's Biggest Democracy" thing as compared to India, but I'd bet we have as many cows.

The microbrewery phenomenon began in the 80s, as I recall, and was in full swing by the late 80s. As for football hooligans, there's really no equivalent in the US that I've ever known. As for the nudity thing, although public nudity and 'page 3' pictures in mainstream publications are generally not to be found, on the other hand, pornography is readily available for rent at Blockbuster Video and other mainstream stores all over the country. In fact, the porn industry has become quite mainstream in many ways, especially since the internet has provided instant and anonymous access. The whole thing reminds me of the line in Casablanca when Louie says: "I'm shocked, shocked to find GAMBLING going on in here." Then Rick's dealer hands him a stack of bills, saying "Your winnings, sir." I carry a US passport, but I'm always reluctant to describe myself as an American, even though I am a native-born citizen and lived there continuously for the first 44 years of my life. I have never once felt at home in America nor have I ever felt that it was my home and I certainly never felt welcome there. My biggest regret in life is that I did not leave 25-30 years ago instead of nine years ago. I am often shocked when I hear people say positive things about "my" country, especially when they talk about finding opportunities in America not available elsewhere. There are even ads in the paper and on the internet here in Poland offering "jobs in America." Everytime I see one of those I wonder why there are jobs and prospects for a decent life in America for everyone but me. All I can remember experiencing in America is an endless stream of foul abuse and threats. I have experienced essentially no such abuse or threats since leaving. Having said that, many of the criticisms of America that I've seen on these forums over the years have been extremely stupid and ill-informed. I've lashed out from time to time, not to defend America so much as to attack ignorance. The only downside to all of this is that I don't have a home anywhere. On the other hand, I'm not in prison either, so that evens it out a bit.

Well, I've always found Americans open, personable and friendly - at least over here - and my son loved California. However they seem to have ludicrous and misplaced paranoia over bare breasts and alcohol when gun ownership is rampant, and they treat incoming tourists in a s.hitty way matched only by Israel. Very worrying programme last night on Channel 4 - Bush seems to see the USA as some present-day God's chosen people whose destiny is to spread the Word Of God - and democracy, or both. I'm ashamed to be a christian when I see his vile face spouting religious homily. On the credit side .... er, there's some fine rock bands coming out of L.A.

I feel sorry for Southampton supporters too, mainly (wait for it), because they support Southampton. I think, though, that it shows that they don't really know why they need to ruck anymore, it's just a bad habit and the remorse that goes with it.

They beat us in the semi-final of the F.A. cup last year, and as far as I'm aware there were no incidents at all. It was at Villa Park and we ended up parking amongst all the Southampton cars and walking to the ground chatting away to a big crowd of their supporters. My little boy had his face painted with Watford's colours, and after the match a big old Southampton fan came ambling over and said to him, "Never mind, mate, there's always next year." Even though we lost, it was a great day out.

I think there's always been honour amongst 'ooligans, just that maybe nowadays, the internet makes it more accessible. Hooliganism has fuck all to do with football. Some play golf, some go for a ruck. It's a hobby. No really. [%sig%]

It's the thrill of fighting, I reckon. All that adrenaline and testosterone swooshing round your body, added to by the endorphins when somebody's giving you a real kicking. The fighter's code's always been to honour your enemy if they've fought bravely. Not my scene by any means, of course.

It ain't all nice and chivalrous I'm afraid. I worked with a 35yr old Chelsea fan some years ago. He was complete with skinhead, tatoos on his ear lobes and hands among other places, was maried with four kids and would delight in telling everybody else on Monday morning how they had scrapped on Saturday. He proudly told us once that they took a Very pistol to an away match up north and had taken pot shots at dogs in the street before the match to brush up on their accuracy. He was an absolutely awful sack of shite. God knows what his family were like.

L.A. Rock Bands are milled crap in my opinion. After the fact, jump on the bandwagon, mass marketed crap. The music scene has degenerated into the abyss. I've given up on the prospect of good cutting edge music being generated by the American music industry, instead, I've turned to the past and Jazz. Seems there's a whole culture to explore there and it's probably the least appreciated music form in this country and one of our most origional creations. There's some interesting stuff coming out of Australia, and seems like my old record collections are mostly from the British invasion era. I went to a club Saturday night here in Denver, the Soiled Dove, now, for the first time in years, I've heard something good. An acoustic-folk rock band on their swing across the country. I'm not kidding you, this band sounded like the Beatles did in 1963, pure raw talent and a fantastic sound and stage energy. I haven't heard anything this good in years. Except for a couple of old standards of Bob Dylan's and even one old Beatles tune, they were playing their own stuff. Justyn, I'm assuming you left America for a good reason. I've often contemplated doing the same. I'm personally fed up with the social attitudes of some of my countrymen.

yeah unfortuently and something which goes unrecognised outside of the City of GLASGOW yet a city which is britains second biggest city is well every time Celtic meet Rangers someone is KILLED because of fighting related to football, sometimes more than one. Did any of you know that. its no good its definetly not good, especially when it is innocent people.

soory but adding to that it is usually always poeople coming from outside glasgow who are causing the trouble. Bloody trouble makers if they out all there football hooligan energy in to the right cause think how beeter of we would all be. Although saying all that i can understand why people want nto fight at footblal games it has a lot to do with the social inequalitys that exist in our country. I think you will find the hardest football hooli crews are generally from the working class towns of the Uk, maybe chelsea buck that trend but on the whole i could hardlys see thugs from places like southhampton standing on a battlefield with thugs from liverpool & glasgow ect, maybe i am wrong but i dont think so.

A demographic of the average Chelsea supporter revealed recently that they have an average annual salary of over £50,000. Stephen, I'm not too sure what you mean when you say that sometimes at a Rangers/Celtic clash a fan may be killed more than once.

So, let me see if I understand all of this. Hooligan's are in general, rowdy /drunken soccer fan's that fight amongst themselves at games, sometimes going to extremes and even prison for this? I've seen glimpses of this on television but it doesn't happen here very often. Thank god! One thing that can't be blamed on Americans. heheheheh... Our biggest sports problem is the "overbearing parents" of children playing little league sports. Angry dads and moms beat up referee's and coach's when little Johnny or Jill doesn't get her way.

It's really interesting getting your perspective on our football, and letting us in on your problems. I've seen a programme over here that was about the child beauty queen issue in the States, I found that utterly distasteful and can see that this same obsession with kids could get into sport as well over there, it's not very socially acceptable here to be seen to favour your own kids winning even at primary school sports day. I went to two baseball games in Chicago, when I was there in 1989. I was amazed that they served beer in the stands - even if it was more like our lighter lagers. I have some great B&W shots of the Socks stadium... and I have a Chicago Tribune that featured Sheffield on the front page, because I was in Chicago when the Hillsborough disaster happened. When I told people that was my 'home town' they poured out huge sympathy and worried that I may know someone that had been killed. When I arrived back to London a few days later, there were still people travelling up to Sheffield by train with flowers. Vivid times. It's nice having someone on the forums from across the pond, Radiodenver. I intend to go back to Chicago before long.

The beauty queen thing may be our local drama here in Denver, Jon Benet Ramsey, a little girl who's mother had her in beauty contests was murdered on Christmas eve 6 years ago or so. That's a local story out of Boulder, CO, a small town just north of Denver. It's been a national story here since it happened, on the covers of the Tabloid papers about every 2 days. The've never found the killer. American brand beers are pretty whimpy stuff, light ale for the most part, watered down dog piss. We have a new phonomena, Micro Brewery's all over the place now, better beer, darks, bitters, red's, you name it. I don't drink them much, maybe with a pizza at dinner or something. All the yuppies used to drink Heineken, thinking it was imported and worldly, worst tasteing beer ever made if you ask me hehehehe.... The groovy girls drink Corona, a Mexican beer with a lime in it, maybe they think they are at the beach listening to Jamacian Skaa or something...The big brewery's all support the major sports. We've alway's had beer at sports games, Baseball, Football (our isn't like your's), Hockey. There's alway's a rowdy fan or two to deal with, but generally, they usher him out or he pipes down. Nothing like in England where thousands of people bash each others heads in.

Gosh, that's a sinister and disturbing tale about the little girl, Gary. I had a great time in Chicago, what a city! You left just before I visited, right? I stayed on Lake Shore Drive with someone I met in Bali, her father was a big name at the Chicago Tribune. My most memorable experience was the Moosehead Bar, where I heard blues singer Valerie Wellington and also Cotton Chicago, where Taj Mahal was playing. I rarely drink beer these days either, progressed to red wine almost exclusively now, Chianti Classico, which has to have the red cockerel if its any good being a favourite. But any wines from southern regions of France or Italy go down a treat...

I moved to Denver from Chicago in Feb 1987. Lived in Chicago most of the 80's though. Chicago is a great summer city, you saw a Sox game, that would have been the old Comiski park, they tore that down and have a brand new statium there now. That's where my son saw his first boobs on a woman other than his mother hehehehehhhhhh... Some gal doing the bare chested wiggle next to us with a few too many down her neck. See, now that's what sports are all about over here. You get the women drunk and the next thing you know, they're running around naked! No fights, just flashing! Funny you mentioned Taj Mahal, he just played in Colorado Springs about 2 weeks ago. I didn't even know it until afterwards, I need to get out more often.

Topless sunbathing in Europe always tends to shock Americans, as do page three girls. You don't have tits in newspapers in the states, Radiodenver, do you? (Other than George Bush, that is). Today I went to see Saracens beat London Irish at the Madejski Stadium. It really was an exciting game, but it was the first time in England that I've seen those guys with barrels of beer on their backs walking around during the game. It's commonplace in the States. I can't exactly imagine it taking off at football, though. They'd bash the guy up and nick his beer. Radiodenver, you and I both know that micro-breweries aren't a new phenomenon. Having said that, though, they may well be knew to the States. Back in the late eighties, when I was flush, I was going to bar in Toronto, and brew bars were all over the place at the time. Instead of a back wall of glasses and optics, there'd be a window through which you could see the brewery. Beer would either be pumped straight through to the pump, or bottled for sale later. I remember two warehouse-size bars that had almost 300 beers on the "me 'n' you".

What amazes me is how amazed everyone is amazed at Americans when we travel to Europe or wherever. We hear of all these attitudes towards us when we go overseas, but when Euro visiters come over here, they seem to think we're really cool and then imagrate. I personally have got on well with just about every "foreigner" I've met. The beauty of America, not to be tooting horns, is the diversity of culture here. If you want to be involved in a particular culture, you can find it and live it here. What travels overseas and gets the press and what's seen on television is not what we're about, and perhaps, distorts perceptions. We suffer from the same problem. We hear that "English" food is bland. The English woman I know kicks ass with her cooking. We hear the "French" are rude. The one's I've met aren't any more rude than people from New Jersey heheheheh... gotta see things first hand if you ask me. It takes all kinds of critters to make fritters. I think the shocking aspect, if there is one for "Americans" is the fact that nudity is allowed. We have a social-political posture amongst the authority that requires posturing and proper moral presentation, but it's a veneer. American's I know (there's a bunch of them too) aren't shocked by much these days. The adolescent curiosity with the anatomy of the opposite sex has been reduced to "Girls gone wild and Chippendale dancers (for the ladies)" Americans are overly worried that their children will be attacked by a child molester, and as we all know, television is a well known evil and causer of evil doings. Paranoid...how does the rest of the world handle a paranoid giant? As for the microbrew's, I don't know how old you are Karl, but I've been around the block a few times, so when I speak of relativly new things, it could be anything newer than 1980 :-/ Here in Denver, there are brew bars that have been established for 10 years or so, we even have a brewery at the local baseball stadium for the Colorado Rockies. When I was growing up, home brew was limited to "moonshine" and was generally sold from the back of trucks along dirt roads.

I lived seven years in the States, and love the country and the people. I spent five of those years on the road, and I always found the friendlist people to be in Colorado. I can't explain why that is but subsequent visits never changed my mind. (I found the most beautiful scenery to be up in the north west, the best places to hang out for fun would be New York and New Orleans, the cleanest cities Chicago and Dallas, the shittiest city would be Detroit, the most dangerous place down town or south-central L.A., the happiest lifestyles Florida, the most envious lifestyle would be in the north east, and the fun people to hang out with always seem to come from back east). I always - or nearly always - jump to America's defence when it's attacked on these forums. I get particularly annoyed when I hear the American people judged by the politcs and morals of a leader who wasn't even elected in the first place, but actually stole the presidency in full view of the whole country, which is some trick. Almost as annoyed as I get when I hear Americans describe the war in Iraq and other previous wars as if they, and they alone, are fighting out there. As if there are no other countries are involved. But as far as other countries, their cultures, their people and their food, I'd rate Portugal and the Portuguese at the top of my list any day. However, much as I love Americans (the majority of my best friends are seppos), they don't do themselves any favours when as ambassadors to the country the United States sends over people who are loud, obnoxious, fat and wear checks. Checks, for Christ's sake! And who stand on the left on escalators! (Apologies for all the massive generalisations and universal quantifiers in this post)

One of my christian friends managed to get a green card and is totally sold on the American dream ... she thinks George Bush is a fine christian man amongst other things. It makes me scream; yes, he stole the election, but millions of fundamentalists, rednecks and other associated morons had to elect him in areas where the Republicans don't need to cheat to win. Which somehow gets translated as God's miraculous providence. My friend now looks down on the UK as a horde of miserable godless cynics but at least the British sense of irony helps spot these scripture-spouting fraudsters a mile off. Well, she did end up in Montana where there's very little crime but there's hardly a "diversity of culture"!