female/male writers: Discuss

lol@fergal...you flatter...come on, it's utter drivel...

One thing which Hen commented on, perhaps reasonably, was the lack of female writers with a strong sense of humour successfully conveyed in their writing. Well, Fergal, I've found one. You.

Well, back to the topic... ...a long time ago Wolfie asked me why there were no females in my list of favorite (published non-ABC) authors. Good question. For the most part, the answer is that women often write about domestic situations, family 'romance,' 'relationships' and the like, and that subject matter usually bores me to tears. The writing may well be very good, at least technically competent, but I'm just not interested in the subject. Also, I can't think of even one female American writer I find interesting, though God knows OPRAH has spent years touting a bunch of them. I recall reading a collection of essays by Joan Didion years ago which was quite good, but that's non-fiction. Having said that, I finally got around to reading Margaret Atwood's 'The Blind Assassin' recently, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. Being a Booker winner is a plus, as I often like books by Booker types.

I'm currently re reading an Atwood... she really IS very good. Tried that anne tyler one yet james?

When it comes to fiction, I read as much women's writing as men's; but, with a few exceptions, women just don't seem to write the non-fiction books about military history, horse racing, gambling, and insects that I also enjoy reading. I think women are generally more broad-minded than men about what they read, though they continue to be understandably repelled, on the whole, by books devoted to our more odious vices.

Righteousness is very subjective as you know from your personal experience and beliefs.

Haven't made it to anne tyler yet, but it's on my list.

No, I would probably go for the Passion too... Written on the Body is my favourite Winterson, but the Passion is more accessible and takes more risks. I think you will like it, for the Venetian boatwomen and the heart in the jar if nothing else...

Written on the Body is my favourite.. I did an essay on it recently, which got me a pass through to next year (yippee). As a starter, why not start with winterson's semi autobiographical Oranges? Very accessible.

I've got stuck half way through "Breathing Lessons"; thought it was brilliant at first, but it started to feel padded after the mad wedding. On hold. Funny female writers: Glazebrook, Kinsella, Keyes.

There's a website somewhere which claims to be able to detect with eighty-per-cent accuracy whether a piece was written by a male or a female. I couldn't make head or tail of the theory behind it, but they reckon the following words are more common in female writing: with if not where be when your her we should she and me myself hers was and the following words are more common in male writing: around what more are as who below is these the a at it many said above to Go figure. (I'm not making this up.)

Also funny, Knight. I like Keyes in small doses, lately she seems samey... I like to read her when I'm in the sun though.

I assume you don't mean John Michael Knight.

Oh, Rachel's writing can be hugely funny too...

Ahah I shall read them all. In one sitting. So it will be something like eating a whole Sarah Lee and having a bag of chips with mayonnaise and a bottle of champagne after. My favourite way to spend an evening. Well, almost.

...and Liana's...

And so is this And why has it not been cherripied?

You could read The Powerbook in one sitting...it's lighter, but not as impressive...still deeply sensual and engaging though.

Perhaps there's no pastry left...

Excellent. I like having my own recommend Winterson slot. I am honestly going to read them all. There's going to be a boost in the Winterson back catalogue. as an aside: I just wrote a story in about an hour and put it on the site. All this chat with other writers is making my brain work at twice the speed. (Disconcerting as I was never one for easy paced thought in the first place).

hehehe This site does have an effect on one... it's changed my life unrecognizaby...(seriously). This is why I feel that the abc talecatching project is something that has huge potential...there are lives out there waiting to be touched and reached by being enabled to write their story... Having been able to write mine, both creatively and on this gen diss...the effect has been profound. That's why I turned up in London.

One more point I reminded myself of on the other thread: I've contributed to this site under two names, one of which is female. No prizes for guessing which one induced people to lather me with praise, and which one was, and is, dismissed as 'pretentious'. Although admittedly, age was another factor. Still, we can conclude that the thing to be if you're a writer is an older female, and the thing not to be is a young male.

That isn't even true is it? Or if it is, maybe because the standard expected of a male is higher - therefore a woman is praised for a lower standard of work because 'bless her, she's tried'. Or 'It's good - for a woman'. Blokes are often looked up to as if they are going to hold the secret of the universe inside their pulsing minds. Women are very very rarely looked at like that. In my experience. I think to be a writer is the only thing. If you write well in a way that makes people want to read it doesn't matter what you are. Really. You're at UEA right? It just isn't the way you're saying it. Maybe online personalities can get in the way of the writing sometimes... If you had a book out in the shops you wouldn't be having long conversations in type with people justifying it. It would just be out there. Also, I think there's a lot of misunderstandings in type in chatrooms - people expect to be attacked and look for that and misinterpret what's there. Don't you think Hen? Or no? If you can write, then you can write. Shurely.

p.s. And another thing. The best thing to do is not to worry too much about impressing people with your prose - or being 'got'. The more energy you spend trying to convert the unconvertalbe, the less you have for writing. Then you forget who you are even writing for. And what you're writing for. I feel sorry for people who are writing to be praised and elevated. No amount of proper joy can come out of that. I might start a new thread about; why do we write? If it's for glory, it ain't going to have a happy ending.

Funnily enough Hen, though you studiously avoid saying anything about my writing, you couldnt get enough of the alternative persona *i* posted under ... so yes. Online personalities do affect the way you percieve someones work... something I have always strived to avoid, though others don't offer the same grace. What's good for the old cliche, non?

Lovely point Liana. would you recommend and post a link for some of your stuff? I'd like to read some.

Fergal, I took most (all actually) of my stuff off ABC, in an attempt to get me writing again... since Ive been at Uni, (and relatively happy, which is weird) Ive tended not to write so much for myself. The only thing which is on ABC is a diary, which though some kind soul cherried it, is not particularly scintillating...

Don't forget the great women crime writers...when you are talking about patterns in women's writing, and differing structure tendencies...surely crime writers are masters of structure, as are the late 18th/early 19th C women writers. My favourite women writers are: Winterson, Atwood (structure is also a strength with her - see short stories), Woolf, Rendell, Tartt and Iris Murdoch. Murdoch rarely gets a mention on here????? Where Woolf and Winterson are concerned...I think their gender plays a major part in their writing...breaking the general rules, in Woolf's case...and the emotional power of Winterson and Woolf is almost unrivalled in my opinion.

hehehe - that diary still makes me chuckle though...hehehe....see, can't stop..... OH! Gawd...so it's better to be an older woman is it...bollocks...if you don't mind me saying so. I write entirely for my own benefit...I love life, and am a very passionate person, and writing releases a lot of the energy I have. I don't live to write, or for praise...I think people have liked some of my stuff because it of its emotional content and honesty..(oh, and the sexy stuff goes down well!). Having said that, my writing varies enormously at present...and I don't really care if I never find a real single voice or whatever. I have written stuff that is more understated and economical and highly structured, but also stuff that pours out from the heart. When I've had stuff cherried, I never really know quite why exactly...but it's very kind of someone. I think this site cherries people incomparitively up to a point...I believe the wonderful editors treat everyone personally, and measure their stuff against their own, as much as against other stuff on here. This is a remarkable achievement. And this is the nurturing environment I have come to appreciate so much. From time to time I have these rather arrogant moments, thinking that I might put something together that would be publishable and reach into people's lives...but they don't last long. Actually, at the moment, I'm too in love with the here and now to be bothered. It's going to be interesting to see where my writing goes from here. (interesting for me, is what I meant!).

"Funnily enough Hen, though you studiously avoid saying anything about my writing...." I've said several times in the past that I like your poetry. I can recall one occasion specifically - when you were saying how much you admired Fish, and included among your points the idea that her poetry was far superior to yours. I said I much preferred yours to Fish's, and I've never actually said I disliked Fish's (although the received wisdom is different, I'm sure.) Guess you're so modest you try to forget what praise you receive. I'm afraid what I said is true, Fergal, and I think, to an extent, it *is* because there's a slightly patronising attitude towards women writers. In this case, however, it's also because I made the mistake of joining in the forums soon after joining ABC, so anything I wrote under my own name went through the 'young & ambitious' filter. This meant that even if I wrote something people actually liked, it was seen as a progression towards authorial maturity, rather than an achievement in its own right. "Well done, lad! Getting better!" seemed to be the best I could expect. If I wrote something people didn't like, I was told it was "rendered unreadable by the self-consciousness of youth." Thus limiting ABC's use to 'henstoat', but not to his female persona. "p.s. And another thing. The best thing to do is not to worry too much about impressing people with your prose - or being 'got'. The more energy you spend trying to convert the unconvertalbe, the less you have for writing." Agreed. This is why I post my stuff on UKA now. I don't mind if people think it's flawed, or not particularly good - the problem is when people assign false motivations to me. Apparently, you see, I write just to show off my 'intelligence' and make people admire me, and because I fancy myself as avante garde. So goes the judgement here. I reserve the right, however, to torture myself continuously on these blasted forums. I know it's largely to do with the strange environment of chatrooms, and I'm sure if I'd met the people here in real life, we would get on much better. I don't think they're all idiots. But the fact remains I feel pinned down by prejudice, and I'm pissed off about it.

>>>People couldn't tell which one I was from my stories and that was interesting....<<< That would be me. I said that. And I'll tell you why. I stupidly assumed Fergal was male and was quite surprised by 'his' first story for it is unusual to see men write with such insight from the woman's perspective. This confused me. Hence my remarks at the start of my quick crit of your second piece. I felt unsettled. Not because you are female but because I thought you a male. Having read your your third piece and your sub-culture piece I find I am more at ease with your writing. Nothing to do with romance or sagas. Only an unease over 'where is this author coming from?' If that makes sense?

Yes to Emma about women crime writers... all those you mentioned and also someone like Patricia Highsmith - v classy, satisfying read, a thriller, crime writer who's interested in ideas and playing with point of view and interesting characters. I don't think that women writers 'can't' do structure. I think they can, but then wonder what will happen if they don't, or if they subvert the idea of structure, or use structure to explore the themes that interest them. I like Murdoch, though sometimes her dialogue can wind me up. Her books are intelligent and eminently a 'good read' though. I used to love Woolf. I probably still do, but I go through phases. Sometimes I love one writer and then I can't bare to read them again, or tut at every sentence. Is this because a) I'm fickle, b) you can never put your foot in the same river twice or c) I'm fickle. Hmmmm. I've never, despite being recommended to a million times, read Winterson. What should I read first if I do, Emma?

I read a book on hols last week which really surprised me... Matt Thorne's "Child Star". It *did* have a structure - loose though, and the style of writing was definitely not one I expect from a man, be that right or wrong. It was conversational and light, which isnt a bad thing, but it was also sloppy, meandering and FULL of mistakes ... Not heard of him before, shant read him again.

I've heard about that book - it got quite good reviews in some parts of the press. Shan't read it now Liana as I believe you have good taste. God someone with appalling bodily odours has just sat opposite me and is breathing on me. What is correct etiquette here? Do I move? Do I wrinkle my nose and go 'Bleurgh'? Do I sit here and pretend everything's fine...? Sorry, we were having a semi-intellectual conversation until then. Must stop randomly thinking in type.

Dan - just saw you post about putting the books together to talk about shoes and makeup. You forgot about boys and how much weight celebrites have lost/put on...

No. The only time you said you admired my work, was as a comparison to a nasty spiteful dragging down of another authors work. If that's what you call praise, keep it to yourself.

wrinkle your nose and chuck them a polo.

I tried that. I think he thought I was trying to chat him up.

Gudgeon. I never slagged off Fish's work, spitefully or not - I said I didn't like it as much as everyone else, and thought you all went on about it too much. She *was* the sacred cow. I also criticised a few lines in one poem, to show that it could be done, and was immediately raged at. I know it's gudgeon because I do like, and have always liked, *some* of Fish's pieces, and I've always felt she knew what she was talented. I know as well today as I did then how it was purely an issue of her being over-represented. And I also know how I felt, and feel, about your work, and that I mentioned it more than once. Once again, you presume to tell me what I am, what I believe and what I thought, in order to prove you're right. Only this time you see fit to rewrite history as well.

Got a peg? Preferably one of those big old wooden ones that they used to make dolls out of... stick it on your neb, and glare.

Whatever.

I took the coward's way out. I moved. The peg thing would have worked though I reckon. Or the 'You really smell,' approach which if I wasn't your typical English polite procrastinator might have said. And for anyone joining this thread at this stage in the proceedings, it really did start out as a debate about the appeal of women writers on the general population...

That's it - you pretend it's beneath you. Not the first time you've used that way out.

Actually, even better if the peg is wearing a dress and has a face painted on it... bugger the polite english thing. Go for the direct approach, it's great for stress relief.

Hen.. it's not a pretence dear... it really IS beneath me. You see, the biggest difference between us (apart from the 'fact' that I am a middle aged man hating woman and you are an opinionated self adoring toerag), is that I dont *give* a shit what you believe, or what you think of me. *shrugs*

"you presume to tell me what I am, what I believe and what I thought" this is so utterly dry...think for a moment that people might be responding emotionally, personally, rather than trying to achieve some erudite analysis of yourself... What you think is people's presumption to tell you what you are etc should not be taken as a stick to beat them back with, this says more about you than about them, as David Floyd put much better than i ever could (oin the other thread devoted to you)...just accept how people can respond differently, and that it is not their sole purpose in life to give you a detailed analysis of you and your character, and that you could do with allowing yourself to be reflected back to yourself through others, rather than trying to pretend the reflection is different from what it really is to suit your own needs.

Yeah Stormy, I get that about me on here. Tis confusing when you can't tell if a writer is a man or a woman - it's sort of ungrounding. I actually found your comments about my story very useful actually. The thing I'm interested in finding out is why do men seem to buy books by women less? Do you think they think they are going to be about 'womeny' things that are of no interest to them? I do know lots of blokes read books by women, but I'm talking of the general trend. Why is it that men are excepted for writing 'universally' and women are thought to be of particular interest to women? Any ideas? I find it very strange and disappointing. Doing my MA in creative writing I found that lots of the blokes in my workshop liked my work but would never have read it had it been a book on a shelf.... How do you reach an audience like that?

Yeah, one of those painted ones kitted out like a milk-made with little thimble buckets on a string. or something. I think I'll need at least 20 years of therapy to quit the polite english thing... to think it started with a peg.

surely I meant Geez fergal, sort yourself out love.

I meant milk-maid, rather than milk-made. fool. (me)