Fat Nation

But aren't you forgetting the emotional and psychological stuff behind 'eating'. The whole idea of putting the right amount in and doing the right excercise is all very well - and is in fact true at it's basic level - but there are loads of people out there who are not overweight in a clinical sense who still berate themselves every time a single morsel passes their lips. A size 14 is not fat by any stretch of the imagination. I bet you many women who are a size 14 will think they are fat, despise themselves, berate themselves, eat more because they feel really shit, then beat themselves up all over again. In health terms a size 14 is healthy, no biggie. In looks terms a size 14 doesn't make a woman unfanciable, although she may think it does. Weight and health and food are much more complicated than just saying eat less walk more, despite that being true in itself. Many people use food emotionally - to deal with that takes all sorts of processes and the hardest part is changing what you think. I am amazed that Liana put on such a brilliant and honest post and you guys were still chucking around fat jokes. I sometimes think that men have absolutely no idea the complexities behind food and body image for women. It's not about vanity. It's about self worth. And for some reason women have been trained to attach their self worth to their image. We (women) are constantly being told either directly or by inference that thin is beautiful and good and right and admirable. There is no such thing as being too thin apparently. You mentioned control earlier in this thread spider, but that is the point exactly with eating disorders of any kind (whether they be ones which make you skinny or fat) - it's all about control. If you are anorexic part of your buzz comes from controlling your body, how you have tamed it - like a reaction to mortality in a way. If you are very over weight you don't control what you put inside you which makes you feel even more out of control. I think we need to take the looks element out of it entirely. Bring up the next generation to be healthy, active and happy in their own skins. But then I've got an arse like a cauliflower, so whadda I know? (AND don't even get me started on the whole class issue behind our so called Fat Nation. If you are working a shit job, shit hours, shit money you get your jollies while you can. Why does nobody ever mention the fact that sugary and fatty food gives you a buzz, a bit like drink or drugs or cigarettes? It's all very well to say ban this, ban that, but give people other options in life, look after your citizens, don't just use them as little cogs in a economic system, then they might not need to stuff piles of goop into their mouth for a moment's relief)

Thank you Hayley - it occurred to me that size 14 is by no means obese and is average for Britain (allegedly!). Four of the six women in my church home group are definitely overweight and are much more than a size 14. All of them are happily married, with families and good jobs and are a bundle of fun - I think they've learnt to get their self-worth from somewhere other than body image. Of course, beauty's in the eye of the beholder - my wife gets various catalogues for "larger sizes" including a lingerie catalogue from Bravissimo which caught my eye (as it would!) and I can honestly say I've never seen such a beautiful set of female models. I don't buy into the obesity scare - obviously there's a level of overweight at which your body is going to function badly, but that applies to underweight too. The fact the puberty is being reached earlier and earlier and people are growing taller means that our bodies respond positively to the abundant food supply. I have to be careful because I'm prone to high blood pressure, so it's easy on the chips (crisps are a no-no, also due to the salt) and more fruit and veg. Cauliflowers are fine though...

Thanks fergal.

Only three of us have said how much we weigh.......and gosh all blokes!!! Aren't men brave?

Or is it careless?

Or stupidity? Did you have to calculate my weight in pounds RD, the girly's would have been too thick to work it out. 83 kgs eh? 1990 those were the days. How tall are you RD?

This has been an excellent debate on the issue. I was 6 stone 8 for years and years and years. I coxed the British rowing eight at that weight. I have played sport at a good level all of my life. I am now almost 15 stone and very pissed off with it. The problem is arthritis (and too much beer). My right big toe is severely arthritic, as is my left shoulder. These stop me from walking any long distance or swimming or doing pretty much anything athletic. I played good competitive tennis until 18 months ago. In that time I have put on almost 2 stone. The operations are to come - I'm on the lists! This means that I need to diet. I am suffering from indigestion at night because my stomach is too large. It's horrible. I just need to gird my loins and do it. It's tough because I commute most days from Brighton to London and back again, I have a stressful and difficult work life and I like the odd beer in order to relax. I've done it before and I can do it again - it just needs the kick to do it properly. But I don't want to get into that 'diet/not diet' cycle. As soon as I can exercise properly again I know that I will go on a diet and the weight will fall off. My father was the Cambridge cox. When he died, two and a half years ago now, he was very overweight. I look in the mirror and I see him reflected. It's very worrying. I am reminded of that wonderful Alan Sherman song: 'Hail to thee Fat Person' I've found them now: I would like to explain how it came to pass that I got fat. Ladies and gentlemen, I got fat as a public service. When I was a child, my mother said to me, "Clean the plate, because children are starving in Europe." And I might point out that that was years before the Marshall Plan was ever heard of. So I would clean the plate, four, five, six times a day. Because somehow I felt that that would keep the children from starving in Europe. But I was wrong. They kept starving. And I got fat. So I would like to say to every one of you who is either skinny or in some other way normal-- When you walk out on the street, and you see a fat person, Do not scoff at that fat person. Oh no! Take off your hat. Hold it over your heart. Lift your chin up high. And in a proud, happy voice say to him, "Hail to thee, fat person! You kept us out of war!" Says it all really!

I think the thing about food having been cut loose from its meaning as sustenance is very interesting and in a lot of ways hits some nails right on the head. I'm vegetarian now, but I wasn't before the age of nineteen. My Mam was a very 'traditional' english cook. Meat and two veg which over time became burger and some chips. We were always given lots of veg when it was possible, bought from Geordie Barnes green grocers on Adelaide Terrace. Meat was always the staple, bought from Dewhursts in Adelaide Shopping Centre. As we got older, these shops closed and Adelaide terrace died on it's arse as a shopping place. This was when we moved to complete supermarket shopping. My Mam also started working as a dinner lady once my sister and me were both at school, which meant there was less time for the type of daily shopping anyway. As time went on, convenience became important. We'd get in from school at about half three, four o'clock. My Dad would get in from work about seven or eight so there were effectively two meals to make. Cooking elaborate meals was difficult I suppose, so things tended to involve chips and stuff from Birdseye or Dalepak or stuff that was a one-pot kind of thing; Corned Beef Hash, Stew stuff like that. We'd have all of the traditional stodgy puddings, all of the fatty stuff and when there was time something vegetably or salady. We always had fruit. We'd also have fizzy pop and full fat milk and salted butter and biscuits and crisps. My mam would buy us sweets every day and my uncle Peter brought me and my sister four bars of chocolate each every sunday. All very normal. My Mam was fiercely protective of the food she cooked and the way she cooked it. It was as if she felt that what she cooked was in some way an extension of herself. I remember her complaining about advice to 'eat this or don't eat that', not with any logical arguement but, I suppose, something that was an extension of you are what you eat. It was like 'we are this kind of person, and this is what we eat: 'What right does anyone have to tell us what we can and can't eat?' A meal not eaten was taken as an affront. A criticism of something not having turned out right was met with anger and upset. When I became vegetarian my Mam almost saw it as a betrayal, a rejection. She had done her best to make sure that we were never hungry, to make sure that i had my favourites whenever I might want them and suddenly I was taking that satisfaction away from her. So food was about identity, was about love and care, about tradition and sense of self. My Mam felt under attack, felt like she was fighting a losing battle to know what was best for her family. I suppose convenience foods would have removed the burden from her. It wouldn't be her fault and failure if they weren't the nicest, it was the fact that the manufacturers had failed, thus defusing that little bomb. I care intensely about what I eat now, castigating myself for lapses, worrying about vitamins and fats and trans fats and pesticides. I'm probably fairly healthy but what I've given up is the chance to share what feels like my heritage. No family meals. None of the nostalgic tastes of childhood. No sense of identity through food. My sister was always quite big, whereas I was quite thin. I suppose there was genetics mixed with diet mixed with activity there. My Mam thought she was doing the right thing, maybe feeding us food that would eventually make us fat and unhealthy, I don't know. My Mam used to talk about how she loved to feed us stuff that made us smile, hence the sweets every day when we came home from school. My Mam also used to divide stuff into 'rubbish' and 'food'. 'Rubbish' was stuff like sweets and crisps. 'Food' was everything else. My Dad doesn't like vegetables or fruit really. He likes chips and meat. I'm not sure what the point of this post is really, other than to give some real human examples of what we're talking about. This stuff can very easily slip into a battle between straw men, with extreme examples takingthe place of human beings.

dont get me started on parenthood! sterilise everybody till they can prove themselves to be capable of bringing up someone else!!! simple, then the halfwits and the careless morons can all just shag each other as much as they want and nobody suffers. The parenting can be left to those who can be arsed about how a child will turn out.

That's really interesting Mark. I was reading a piece yesterday about the documentary / film about to come out called Super Size Me, where an american journalist ate nothing but McDonalds for 30 days as an experiment to see how badly it would damage his health (the result was disastrous and he has now inflicted major damage on his body). The most interesting observations were in parents and kids attitudes to the whole concept of McDonalds, rather than just the food. Kids view it as a treat, parents therefore see it as a way of indulging kids at best, and a way of pacifying them at worst. I think I'm lucky in that my mother never had any interest in food or cooking and so didn't bother with either much, which has spurred me to be an enthusiastic, if not terribly wonderful cook, but it also meant that I have no emotional attachment to food as a source of comfort or guilt because it wasn't really part of our childhood.

How a child turns out isn't entirely the result of parenting, Ian.

But Rachel, virtually none of my generation were brought up with food as a gratification thing. Rationing was just ending and food was still a treat. I then went to boarding school and was given the most revolting muck on earth to eat - and did so. I didn't care about food until I had kids of my own. Then we gave them healthy stuff - and still do. We eat healthily. I loathe Macdonalds, I never eat between meals. I eat good stuff by and large. I never eat sweets or cake - and still I am a fat bastard. OK I do love to cook - and there are times when I bung in extra butter or cream to make things taste extra good - but that is once a week at most. The rest of the time I cook good, plain, nourishing food. I like a pint or two - but these days that is not to excess. It just isn't fair!

true George, some car wrecks can be traced to factory faults but most just get written off by arseholes behind the wheel.

It has to do with so many many things. The bottom line is that people who love food, like you, me and the rest of ABC probably, run the risk of putting on weight and you're right, it just isn't fair. Especially as 'diets' are hell for people who like food.

ok, if I make one more car analogy somebody shoot me!

Miss, Same thing over here. We're breading hogs I tell you. I think it's related to the easy access to unhealthy food in large quantity. Fast food restaurants, large portions, "Super Size that?" "Yes, I'd like an extra half pound of lard with my order." Okay, I'm still confused. How much is a "stone" in lbs or Kilo's or what ever? 20 lbs? (I suppose I should just look it up, be this is more fun)

whats all this about the parenting causing kids to be fat? i used to be over weight, but it wasnt because my mum fed me junk food, its because i fed myself junk food. whenever i went out with my friends, we just went to mac donalds or something, then snacked on chocolate bars for the rest of the day. My mum didnt have anything to do with my weight. she feeds me healthy meals. i'm now just the right weight for my height at 9 stone (no idea about the conversion thing, sorry) and 5 foot 10.

I like all kinds of food, and will let myself have a chicken royale every now and then. Currently, I am tetchy and miserable because I can only afford to eat bread and cheese, weetabix and one pound ready meals, all washed down with tapwater. Although admiral's pies are yummy and nutritious, I am still wasting away. I long to return to the monetary freedoms of pre-June, when I could still spend thirty pounds a fortnight at a supermarket buying sumptuous goods.

1 stone = 14lbs. That would be English pounds as opposed to yours, as I have no doubt yours are lighter. (Based on your gallons being smaller, miles being shorter etc)

well to me, these kid's parents were using junk food as some sort of pacifier, giving him chocolate and crisps to shut him up, i doubt he left hte house very much and probably didn't get food on his own...so he ate what he was given, and it looked like he was fed on mainly junk food...

Your car analogy isn't really good enough to cover this, Ian. In the main cars leaving the factory behave in accordance with the factory set-up, with or without faults. Humans having the ability to reason, frequently go against the programming as a result of this individual ability. Parents can only teach so much, as the child grows and enters other theatres of influence, eg. school, work, social groups etc. their views and opinions change. Parents cannot be held responsible for the final product, we are all ultimately responsible for who we are and what we are. I concede that those with limited mental abilities from the outset are somehow handicapped though.

I haven't got a clue how much I weigh...no scales. However, I know I'm about 2 stone overweight for my height. Just need to exercise more and sit in front of this bloody computer less. Sod it though, what will matter more, the size of your arse inside the coffin, or the number of people at the funeral? You'd all come to mine, er...wouldn't you?

*holds hand up to being a lard arse*

I'm a 109kg at the moment, but i was 117 at the start of the year.I think my ideal weight is 70 kg or therabouts. My diet is terrible, masses of salt and sugar contained in the things i eat. And apparently i look like Hagrid or Grizzley Adams. So i have to admit to being a lardarse. Oh the shame, the shame of it all.

Tony, you are a fat bastard as you put it because your 'odd' pint is, I suspect, not as odd as you'd have us believe, unless you mean, 5, 7, 9 or 11, on more than one day a week. Your other problem is that you have passed the age of caring more about your shape than you do about going without your little pleasures. I've heard many smokers say, 'I've been smoking for 20yrs now, it won't make any difference, AND I AM over 50!' I'm almost as overweight as you are but I am a bit taller and have a luxuriant growth to support so I get away with it more easily than you. I also do a manual job which helps. I also have the arthritis you talk about, my big toes keep me awake at nights the pain is so bad at times, and I've been taken off medication because it was causing stomach ulcers. Unlike you however, I DO eat cakes and sweets so I have to come to the conclusion that nature dealt you a shitty hand, and you were always destined to BE a fat bastard. :-) Jon, how a skinny little sod like you has the cheek to even discuss diet is beyond me, I've seen more fat on a greasy chip. A sure sign you will be tubby by the age of 45.

I'm 6 feet (American feet), 72 inches.

Come on flashy, what's all that in old money. (I can't be lard-arsed to work it out.)

oh how do i FEEL about it? i would love to wake up tomorrow and be a lot thinner ... however i eat and drink too much and i am very idle ... so if being thinner equals eating and drinking less and exercising more i am afraid its lardarsism for me ... i get cheesed off trying to buy clothes tho weight is an emotional minefield for a lot of people i know ... mainly women but some men too ... feeling good about self focuses so much on the outer business which is unfortunate if your outer business doesn't measure up ... i have some friends who are marvellous loving funny and clever people and have been plagued all their lives by disorders such as bulimia or anorexia ... i feel very very sad about it because it really rules some people and they just cant see how beautiful they are ... *sigh* time for a snack i suppose

I think it's between 9stone and er..........ahem............oooohhhhhh..................17 stone.......Missi you nosey git. *chomps on a chicken breast coated with cheese and onion crisps..................... and a snicker bar*

'AND I AM over 50!' ' Why not just say you're 60? Mr Cook may well be fat, but never, never a bastard......unless of course he actually is.

I find your honesty very refreshing, my dear.

A woman at work looked at my stomach today and said 'when is it due?' The bitch has got an arse the size of the Netherlands.........bitch.

I have no idea what I weigh (which is part of my claim to being a very well adjusted human being), but I fight an ongoing battle with a small paunch which only really annoys me because I used to be thin as a rake. That said I just ate a two person pizza and am about to go out on the beer for the third time this week, so I don't fight that hard.

Wow, this is fun. Math is your friend..... Mississippi, you-da-man.... 14 lbs US per stone. You win an all expenses paid trip to Europe, curtesy of Neil_The_Auditor. Okay, so I'm 185 lbs US.... That's 13.2 Stones.....(my lucky number), extrapolating further.... 621600000 doites or even better....1678000000 hu's. 83 Kg (@109 kg, Flash you are a big boy. 240 lbs, need to cut back on those cheeseburgers, you'll die of heart cloggage.) I eat 1 cheeseburger a week, tops. My sin is chocolate, every day. So, I should loose about 1 stone to be back at my athletic peak (back when I was an olympic wrestler) Which shoe was that...Oh yea..

Having probs with your reading skills today flashy?

ooooooh..er.........aha........I had a long hard day at work Missi, apologies.

Ok. I'll hold my hand up too, to not only being a lardarse, but being the friend that Fish is talking about. I feel ok these days, actually sometimes I think I might be quite a lovely shape, but it still remains dependant on how I feel emotionally at the time. When I am very unhappy, I will still binge and then starve, and have done so for almost 30 years. The purging days are pretty much over, but I would never say never again. I would like for it to not matter if I am fat, or thin. I would like it to not matter to other people, and more importantly, to me. My size ranges (within a matter of months) from a size 10 to a size 14, and at 14 I feel like everything shitty in my life is directly because of my size. The strange thing is, that when I am a size 10, things dont get better, yet when I am bigger, I see the size 10 clothes in my wardrobe and feel that if only I could fit in them, life would be grand. I drop to 500 calories a day, and this to me, feels like a sensible way to lose weight. I know this is wrong, but logic doesnt always prevail I am afraid. Blimey. I feel a bit odd now.

We have the axe handle measurment too. "That gal's ass is three axe handles wide!" Liana, let it go. your weight and size isn't the problem.

Parenting starts something like this: "6lb 5oz? Oh.. well err.. I suppose that made the birth a bit easier" "9lb 2oz? What a good weight!" When you go to baby clinics to check on progress, the health visitors put baby on the scales. If they've put on significantly more than the right amount (according to the growth charts) then "they're doing very well", whereas an ounce under makes the HVs fretful. IME it's clearly very easy for nervous new parents to go along with Heavier Is Healthier[tm] and I'm not sure how/when/if that meme goes away.

Hey, Emma, You just gave me a great idea for a story!

Yep, but as long as people make fat jokes radio, im afraid it is.

People that make fat jokes do it because it makes them feel better about themselves. Overweight is simply a health problem for the individual. It has no bearing on the quality of their mind nor heart, until it becomes an obsession and they start reacting in neurotic ways to their fear of "fat jokes". Fat jokes are good for one thing, they help identify who amongst us are insecure, and thus should be accorded a little special attention (in what ever form required, not always for the better) I'm the generous recipient of "America" jokes, doesn't bother me, I wade into it lovingly, doesn't make me feel paranoid about being American. The offer still stands btw.... I like plush women....

Im not that plush. Doesn't plush mean hairy?

I was thinking more along the lines of "smart"... Remember, I'm from Kentucky, we don't talk right either.

What - you intending to put me six feet under? Well, the view might be better from there.

What? You want to live forever?

Well, I live and learn I guess.

God no. Anything but that.

I have just started cycling again, after letting myself go a bit... not terribly overweight you understand but a little bit paunchy through a lack of exercise... This galls as I have always been pretty fit, and I have found that my moods and my energy levels have also dropped in tandem.... From my experience if you do not gorge yourself at every opportunity, do not overdo alcohol/drugs, eat fairly healthily, exercise regularly... by this I mean getting out and doing stuff such as walking, cycling, with the kids etc rather than sit about on ones arse etc.... Not only will you be healthier, you will also feel a lot better about Yourself... and when you feel good about Yourself it tends to reflect better on your relationships... It is as simple as that, whatever equipment you start out with.... everyone should at least try and strive for this sort of balance.... it is feeling in control that brings you satisfaction... ... the idea that you can be 'happy' yet grossly overweight or stickly thin is delusional. Fat Nation = Unhappy Nation and vice versa Question is, why are we becoming more morose as a nation....

All those years of research into eating disorders, solved by Gerry Therapist right here on ABCtales.com... you saw it here first people. :o)