Dumb questions/observations about songs

>>In support of Hen, I do sort of wonder when the last time Stormy et al went to an indie nightclub to see what young people are dancing to... We are getting into the usual limp sort of music argument where things I like equal good, things I don't are for pathetic sad losers. Shame.<< Got to pull you on this one Andrew. I know I ought to ignore it but you did name me - everyone else is cloaked under the et al gauze. The first post I made in this thread was about my theory regarding the current age of The Smiths fans. Mart and Neil responded as oldies (but possibly new converts- so don't count) and Hen countered my generalisation with generalistions of his own including his comment after he mentioned students "(senses another generalisation coming)". (Why can't he shake off his defensive 'student' thing - doesn't he realise that many of us here were once students too?). I responded and that was that. It's nothing to get worked up over yet you accuse me of dissing other people's musical tastes. I said the Smiths are, to me, depressing. That's my view and that's that. I didn't slag off anyone. Now, if you are referring to the debate about Elvis et al then please leave my name out of it since I've not joined in. Finally, I can't see the relevance of knowing what people dance to in Indie clubs is to this thread. I can tell you what music my mid-teen kids (in their formative years, according to my throw away theory) listen to if you like. Oh, btw, remember that mauling you gave me a few years ago over my musical tastes? Was that not 'a limp sort of music argument' I bet you are around 35 and secretly like The Smiths. mwah.

Athens Georgia...now there's the cultural capital of America!

It's the home of the B52's so don't knock it.

Just nipped across to a lyrics site to read "Losing My Religion" - it's a great song, obviously about loss of relationship rather than religion, though I'm not sure about death or stalking.

Most REM lyric transcripts are completely wrong - I just looked at one too, and the lyrics to both "losing my religion" and their newest one "leaving new york" are wrong. Stipe sings so strangely, his words can sometimes be almost what you want them to be. "Oh no I've said too much, I set it up" is actually "Oh no Ive said too much, I've said it all" Leaving new york - "And all not lost, still in my eyes, the shadow of necklace across your thighs" becomes- "And on our lost till in my eyes, shatter a necklace across your thigh." (mmm, nice rock hard thighs) Lyric sites are terrible. Remember the fantastically misheard "calling jamai - ai - ca, calling jamaica"? which was actually "Call me when you try to wake her up. Call me when you try to wake her." If you want to hear something really hysterical, listen to a forriner singing along to an REM track. This post was bought to you by LianaTheGeek.com. God, the shame.

Don't know why I can really be arsed with this, but here are your two remarks... "I bet if you take a straw poll of people who like the Smiths you will find they are all of the same age i.e. between 32 and 35. People this age were in their musically formative years when the Smiths rode the charts. The poitics of the time probably helped too. A generalisation, I know, but you will find very few people over 35 or younger than 32 who admit to liking their depressing music." Then, Hen said that the Smiths have always been popular with students, which you distorted in this way :- "Er, isn't your statement "The Smiths are always popular with students" a generalisation then? Prove to me that all students since 1983 like The Smiths." My point is simple as this - you have confused the statement "Everyone I know who likes the Smiths is about 32-35" which I believe is true with "Everyone who likes the Smiths is about 32-35". It depends on your social circle - most of the people I know who like the Smiths are in their early twenties and like dancing in indie clubs, which is where they've come across the music. I couldn't give a rats ass about defending or championing bands - I'm confident enough in what I like and dislike not to really care what others think. But I think you were wrong in your assertion. If you actually go to an indie club, you will see plenty of very young people dancing to music you don't care for. I will apologise if you felt the two paragraphs were more linked than I intended. My first point applied to those people who were claiming that all fans of a particular band were a certain age when they probably don't spend all that much time with the 20-25 age group to be able to judge. The second was a much more general point about the way this argument was going (on very predictable grounds - someone slags Elvis, Missi says that the band they like aren't fit to wipe Elvis' arse etc, etc) - it wasn't meant as a dig at you. Your opinions on the Smiths are perfectly fine. I have a different opinion, but I can absolutely see what you mean and why you don't care for them. That's fine. I'd rather not bicker with you Stormy, as you are one of about twelve people in the world that I actually respect and like.

Probably wise not to accuse him of something he hasn't said then. You should've had a go at me where your points would've had a grounding. It's fine to have a go at something when it irritates you, but when it's something that you admire, it gets your goat and is a pathetic argument eh? Hrmmm. *smiles*

REM are pretty cool. 'Orange Crush' is fabulous. Interestingly, I've found people who don't like them cite very similar reasons to your reasons for not liking the Smiths, Liana (boring, dirgy, just appeals to people because they think it's deep/clever when it's not,) and the way you talk about REM also reminds me of what Smiths fans have to say.

No, but it's a pointless one - I don't waste my time telling people that they are wrong in not liking the Smiths, because they have already made up their minds how they think. By the same token, I don't waste my time telling people at length why they are wrong to like a certain band. It's not too far different to listening at interminable length to Missi and Hen squabbling. And it isn't about being angry if people disagree with me - I think it's equally pointless to be arguing about the relative merits of Elvis (which is actually the conversation we were having before I contributed). He's culturally significant whether you like him or not, but he's a Marmite singer - very few people have a 'take him or leave him' attitude towards him. Don't really see the point of challenging you on your expressed views, I know that's how you feel, know you feel it strongly and I respect your musical taste enough to feel that you've come to an informed opinion. Pretty dull world if we all think the same.

But the Smiths are led by a snot gobbling bog rat of a whingy moaner, and REM are led by a fantastically talented genius. Dirgy? Hrmm... (and did I say that thing about people thinking the smiths are clever? I dont recall that)

YOU ARE THE EVERYTHING from the GREEN album is one of the greatest songs of all time.

No, Bosier City, Louisiana is the home of the B-52's. Barksdale AFB. I lived near Athens for a year. If you need a Walmart, there's the place to go.

i never got into the smiths....i don't know why, they just never appealed, but rem did, from the day a friend of mine (mathew) played life's rich pageant, when we were getting stoned, in 1986, i was into them...

I bet if you take a straw poll of people who like the Smiths you will find they are all of the same age i.e. between 32 and 35. People this age were in their musically formative years when the Smiths rode the charts. The poitics of the time probably helped too. A generalisation, I know, but you will find very few people over 35 or younger than 32 who admit to liking their depressing music. Other groups manage to cross decades and are liked by people of all ages. Anyway, onto more important matters: Athens, Georgia. >>It's the home of the B52's so don't knock it.<< I hadn't realised it was a strategic airbase. Carpet bomb city? arf.

B52's the pop group RD..............strewth!!!!

you could be right there storms...they were very, of their time... having said that, i love the new morrissey album...go figure

Love Shack....really deep. I'd rather see the real thing flashy. "Who'll stop the rain?"

"But the Smiths are led by a snot gobbling bog rat of a whingy moaner, and REM are led by a fantastically talented genius." See, again, 'the Smiths' and 'REM' can be swapped round in this sentence to make another wholly familiar argument from music forums everywhere. "A generalisation, I know, but you will find very few people over 35 or younger than 32 who admit to liking their depressing music." Bol-locks. The Smiths are always popular with students (senses another generalisation coming). The point that's been done to death is that, for people who like them, they *aren't* depressing. They're witty, jangly, moving and tunetastic. Any argument based around "people only like X for invalid/predicatable reasons" immediately sounds bitter, the spurious implication being "the rest of us like what we like for totally rational and individual reasons". According, then, to various authorities on Leonard Cohen, the Smiths, Crowded House, Cast, Kate Bush and Tori Amos, I am a 32 year old continuously depressed, suicidal virgin accountant who hates men, owns top of the range wall-mounted flat speakers, draws pixies and strolls around Northern England in a puffer jacket breaking into cars. So there you go. I've been lying to you all this time.

Not about everything Hen... we knew some of that list was true.

*hurriedly adds smiley*

I didn't realise you are 32 Jon. Now what has REALLY depressed me is to learn that the head Smith and dodgy hairdo twat has been appearing at the Ryman Auditorium (hallowed home of the original Grand Ole Opry in Nashville) recently. What is that twerp doing even treading on the same boards as trod by the likes of Hank Williams and Presley? I'm due there on Wednesday and have vowed to scrub the stage with disinfectant.

I think the Smiths are great (if a bit patchy), though I've only discovered them in the last year, and I'm 50 - I once thought I only liked sixties hippy bands and singer-songwriters, but I'm catching up. Depressing is as depressing does - savage downbeat wit (like Leonard Cohen) actually cheers me up, but imprison me in a room with a radio full of vacuous pop or - worse - country and western and I just want the world to end. My sweet innocent wife has compiled her favourite playlist on the computer, and her first three songs are "Roxanne" by The Police, "The Bitter End" by Placebo and "Sweet Dreams Are Made Of This" by The Eurythmics. Which, respectively, have as their subject matter prostitution, stalking (and possibly murder) and sado-masochism. She also likes "Tainted Love" which I'm not sure about, but if Marilyn Manson does a cover version it must be kinky in some way.

"What is that twerp doing even treading on the same boards as trod by the likes of Hank Williams and Presley? I'm due there on Wednesday and have vowed to scrub the stage with disinfectant." Elvis, yuk, you'd need more than a good detergent to scrub him off the stage - you'd need an effing exorcist! [%sig%]

*sharp intake of breath*

Who dat talk'n shit bout Elvis?

Well, he was pretty crap. (Hmm... spider-sense tingling. Danger afoot!)

pschitt, do you have any anything between your ears at all? Be a good boy jon and toddle off back to the sanctuary, your pathetic attemp to provoke me is about as classy as twatsmith's talent. ie. useless

George - haven't you go some sight-seeing to do?

Yes he's site seeing here.

*rapier sharp wit once again cuts through the forum like a knif*

Hen, >>Bol-locks. The Smiths are always popular with students (senses another generalisation coming). << Er, isn't your statement "The Smiths are always popular with students" a generalisation then? Prove to me that all students since 1983 like The Smiths. I 'generalised' because, from what I have seen on this forum, people who like The Smiths do seem to fall into that age bracket (ish). Obviously, there will be older and younger people who like them but they will be in the minority. As a mathematician you ought to appreciate my statistical point. Your comment also implies that once people are no longer students their taste changes. That is tosh. >>Any argument based around "people only like X for invalid/predicatable reasons" immediately sounds bitter, the spurious implication being "the rest of us like what we like for totally rational and individual reasons".<< Now that is total and utter bol locks. My argument is based upon your formative years (to me that is between 10 and 18) during which you discover the the things in life you like. Music, sexual preference, political agenda, beer and anything else you can think of. Sure, things change. I like stuff now that I didn't appreciate in my student years... I am more appreciative of The Beatles, The Rolling Stones and even Elvis Presley... all of which I hated 20 years ago. But, whenever a Slade track comes on I can't help grinning. Not because it is good musically (or for fans of the smiths, lyrically - why else listen?) but because it conjures up a time of my life. >>According, then, to various authorities on Leonard Cohen, the Smiths, Crowded House, Cast, Kate Bush and Tori Amos, I am a 32 year old continuously depressed, suicidal virgin accountant who hates men, owns top of the range wall-mounted flat speakers, draws pixies and strolls around Northern England in a puffer jacket breaking into cars.<< Yes. Only you can't see it yourself. cheesy emoticon.

So.... Looks like Miss is in New Orleans no.no.cox.net, say hey to my friends at Tulane University George...

It has been said before on a smiths thread (theory - the smiths are a popular thread topic because they are so hilarious) that morissey spoke for a generation of pasty faced spot popping shoe gazing willy twiddlers who were miserable cos nobody fancied them. There's the truth and no mistake. Hen you said once that Morrissey is utterly charming - you evidently didn't see him on Ross. The man looked like an aged fat redcoat in sta press troos, and simpered his way through the interview attempting heroically to present himself as somekind of trendy and aloof hero. In fact he came across as ridiculous and totally fake. The man was born without a single charisma gene.... unlike Stipe, who still makes excellent music, (is skinny) and has something to say, Morrissey is a fat idiot who cowers in his luxurious LA house and brings out appalling tosh like his last album. He recently lyricised - "The teenagers, Who love you, They will wake up, yawn and kill you" Lets hope it's prophetic.

God, why on earth would I want to provoke you, Missi? Elvis was/is crap. If people are allowed to go round saying that about the Smiths just because they don't happen to like them, then I can sure as shit say it about Elvis. I will say this much in favour of him though - unlike the case of the Beatles, the constant references to him don't irritate me so much. I guess that's because many are made in the spirit of comedy, rather than awe. Stormy - I might have phrased my comment badly. I wasn't implying at all that people's tastes change once they stop being students. And I wasn't suggesting that the Smiths are a 'student' thing - just that, while I was a student, I knew a heck of a lot of others who loved the Smiths. They always went down a storm if they were played at the LCR too. I'm pretty sure they're a band that will go on being loved, because it's very easy for a new generation to get into them. In addition, they are, of course, a musical landmark. Your argument may well be based upon your formative years....etc. etc..... but you still seem to be saying that the Smiths' popularity rests almost entirely on their association with a time period, which isn't true. Furthermore, you're saying that while it's OK to like them for that reason, it invalidates any claim that they're just a good, or even a great band. Let me tell you why I like the Smiths, as a not untypical case study: kickass tunes, tonnes of jangle, humorously melodramatic lyrics, amazing voice. Liana - At least Morrissey & co. seem to be able to generate responses - whether positive or negative - to what they're doing. There's something to be said for being either loved or hated, with both sides making the effort to come up with meticulous reasoning for their views. Now, I *like* REM but they're just too dull to do that. They lack character. It's just the usual mildly-eccentric-frontman-backed-by-session-musicians fare. Nothing to comment on, unless you happen to love them - and then your argument just sits along the bazillion other fan testimonies for various groups. Buck and Mills did a good job on that Troggs album though.

I forgot a smiley too! ;-)

Never mind Hen... when you are old enough to develop true musical taste, you'll outgrow the Smiths. *various smiley winky things*

Not according to Stormy!

I've always seen the quality of the writing at a similar level between the Smiths and REM. Both have written very memorable music and both have written thought provoking lyrics. I wasn't into either as a student and I'm not into either now but consider both to be genuine talents that stand on an increasingly populated, but still small, island of quality in this ocean of shite we call popular music.

Well, yes, there are some that have no taste, so you are quite right. Witness the Prince addict above.

midge ure and hanson..........urrrrrrrgggggh

Of course you're entitled to your opinion Jon, but to say Presley is crap is a sign of your dubious knowledge of popular music. An affection for the Smiths just supports that. Based purely on world popularity Presley towers above most other popular performers and the Smiths are practically unknown on an international level outside of college campuses. That said, there is of course room for every taste and opinion. As I never tire of saying, it's only the bad that makes the good 'good'. Long live the likes of Morrisminor, he stands as a marker of just how good Presley is. Last night on Bourbon St was mayhem. Right I have to pack my bag and be in the foyer in half an hour or I'll miss the coach to Memphis.

Popularity is a shite arbiter of quality and you know it. Apparently, Des Ree was the best selling artist of the 90's. Must we bow down to her supposed greatness? Yes, the Smiths are practically unknown by most people in the world, but so is almost everything else that isn't either bland to start with or made bland by popularisation. Presley may once have had a certain 'thing' going, but for anyone growing up today he's just part of the cultural wallpaper. And I don't see what knowledge of popular music has got to do with anything. Musos and indie kids know everything about everything, and I don't see many of them worshipping Presley. Music that doesn't appeal or sustain interest unless its listeners have been informed of its historical/cultural significance is more artifact than art. Besides, I'm sure he (or, rather, the Elvis Presley product,) did influence all current popular music, or whatever, but then mankind evolved from apes. Happy travelling!

Hen, Just because somethings not popular, doesn't make it good.

The Smiths? Music to be miserable by. Too many daffodils. REM? One good album (Automatic for the People). In both cases, too much arty pretentious rubbish for my taste. S Club are *leagues* above both of them in terms of lyrics and pop power! Plus they've got Jo (she's got the flow... get ready everybody cos here we go...........................!!!!!!!)

"Just because somethings not popular, doesn't make it good." It's a start.

"Elvis was/is crap. If people are allowed to go round saying that about the Smiths just because they don't happen to like them, then I can sure as shit say it about Elvis." Good on you, Hen! "Based purely on world popularity Presley towers above most other popular performers (...)" That's exactly the problem I'm having with Elvis. Some of his stuff is not bad (although I generally prefer the covers) and he might have had a crucial impact on popular music in general, at least in the Fifties, which paved the way for a lot of other stuff - I'll give him that. What makes me want to puke, however, is precisely this "world popularity", which basically means Elvis (not unlike Jesus) has been dragged down by the hordes of dimwits and lunatics in this world onto a level of lowest common denominator, i.e. an utterly inflated and trivialised carricature of himself. It wouldn't surprise me at all if at least poor Elvis was rotating in his grave at the sight of this bullshit. All this "Elvis lives!" crap, the cohorts of Elvis impersonators, the merchandising and complete sell out of everything remotely connected to the poor sod, which by the way spawned atrociously bad taste all around the globe, not to mention this ludicrous God-like status rendering any doubts or criticism into some kind of blasphemy - all this couldn't be further away from the music. I'm not blaming Elvis for it. I'm sorry I don't manage to get more into this global Elvis brother/sisterhood (because imagine: one day the world could be One and Elvis succeed where Jesus failed), but I'd rather crawl through the Sahara desert with a flask of spittle strapped to my belt than going on a tour of Memphis and Graceland. Having said that, that's just me and doesn't mean that others can't enjoy themselves: Happy travelling indeed, Mississippi, hope you're enjoying yourself! (Disclaimer: And this is not meant ironically) [%sig%]

The Radio 1 'most influential artists of all time' had The Smiths at number 1. Yes, I thought it was bollocks too. Automatic For the People is, indeed, REM's one good album. They haven't moved on musically at all. Bland, bland, bland lift music for the terminally jaded.

Sadly, lift music which fails to lift one's spirits.

Pschmitt, *has been dragged down by the hordes of dimwits and lunatics in this world onto a level of lowest common denominator, i.e. an utterly inflated and trivialized caricature of himself.* This amounts to an argument, essentially the same as..."I don't like something because it is green, and idiots are attracted to green." It has no depth nor reasonable perspective nor basis in anything other than emotion. Elvis...not to be worshiped (in my opinion). He was only a man. A fairly simple and conservative man by most accounts. The Phenomena of Elvis is something much different, and I suspect that this is source of your disdain. Elvis was the prototype of every “Rock & Roll” performer to follow. One could argue that there were those that came before him as well as his peers at the time, but Elvis became the initial aggregate carved sculpture from which all others copied and emulated. To ridicule the tastes of the millions and millions of people from every culture the 50’s, a time when the western world was building bomb shelters and preparing for nuclear war and the moral standards were so Elizabethan it would make you vomit, it shows a total ignorance of what Elvis represents in modern terms and the impact on our culture that resulted from his existence. Elvis couldn’t be brought down. He brought himself down. A tragic finale to the life of a simple man that was engulfed in something so huge, he eventually collapsed of its (and his own) weight. One could do an entire Post Graduate study in social psychology and pop culture simply by following the life and times of Elvis Presley. Name another performer from modern times that has obtained such a cult like status. John Lennon/The Beatles? I don’t think so…? Bob Dylan?…nope…The Smiths??? (never heard of them until now) None have had anything approaching the monumental impact on our culture that Elvis accomplished. The scope of it leaves me in total awe. Pop culture is just “a thing”. It is neither important nor unimportant. It is a thing that commands the attention of the masses. It is a thing that drives financial concerns. It is big business. It is art. It is emotion. It is pathetic and beautiful at the same time. It is the dream we have in our hearts and can’t explain and will never obtain. It is everything that makes up our daily lives and has an impact on our lives. Elvis defined it. Everyone else defiles it. Now, on your knees and beg for forgiveness. Elvis is watching.

this idea that popularity and quality are somehow inversely proportionate is amazing. The elitism shown when people say that, whether it's about politics, or music or art or films or whatever sets alarm bells ringing. what are we other than a part of a finite collection of people? those things that are considered good are considered it by us, people. As is everything else we judge or appraise. If we were talking about some kind of mathematical formula or scientific theory then it could be proved and the majority (is is usually the case) can be shown to have been wrong all along and the few, or individual that believed the truth will be vindicated. In questions of taste, quality, art etc then who's to say what's good and what's bad? maybe not the masses (bunch of ignorant shit kickers that we are) but not the few either. I get sick of hearing people saying, "You're all wrong, it's crap!" and then going on to 'prove' it's crap by citing its popularity! everyone likes it so it must be rubbish! it's the same mentality that dresses the catwalks in utter nonsense and covers our galleries in the ego driven workings of a talentless mind and we're all supposed to doff our caps and bow down to the creative genius of the elite. well I'm not having it. Feel free to dislike whatever you want but don't say something is 'crap' if everyone likes it.