fluoxetine

If your family has shown tendencies to suffer from heart problems, than perhaps by altering your lifestyle, reducing cholesterol, constantly monitoring your health etc you may be able to prolong your life beyond that of previous generations. It is the same with mental illness. Especially if your family has a history, Don't fuck around with drugs! I cannot put it plainer than that. Its not only drugs... if you have crafted a world view that is at odds with your reality.... in time as the clashes get frequent, and your brains attempts at preserving this picture gets feebler, despite mounting evidence to the contrary.... tthe result often leads to severe, unpredictable bouts of emotional problems... sometimes surprising the person themselves as this all builds up unconciously. If you are severely depressed, you may have to rethink everything you previously took for granted. I think the power of faith can help help this process. It is not a cop out, it is a dawning of realisation. The brain is a marvellous instrument, and usually left to its own devices, will find ways and strategies to cope with what is thrown at it (It was designed to be flexible thus).... by the same token, we must take care to look after it, not douse it unduly with external chemicals that drastically subvert its normal everyday operation.... especially at crucial stages in its development. I have made clear before, if you do so, it is highly likely that there will be consequences to pay. This, in my opinion, apply to the majority of people in our society, who take refuge in drugs too easily these days (lets face it, they are available) when they start having problems with their lives. There will always be those in extremis, who will need controlled medical intervention, but they are relatively few. I fear as a society, we are becoming reliant on drugs to side-track our problems rather than to confront them.... and it is no good thing.

"He realised there was no reason, and that was part of the reason." I don't mind admitting I hate to see people suffering (I do really care)... People who suffer tend to lash out, in turn causing misery to others. I consider it a moral bound duty to try and help... even in my bumbling ways. I don't for one minute believe that one has to accept suffering... I think there are always things that one can always do to mitigate the suffering, put it into a greater perspective, come to some kind of internal accomodation about it. I mean, the world is full of examples of people that have exercised free will (and I am a fervent believer in this) to cope with heinous situations... if they can, than its not beyond the bounds of possibility right? This is a message that one should never fail to pass on.... The doom and gloom of those that just throw their arms up and say... Sella Vie! is to my way of thinking, not only to be discouraged, but false.

Well, I do see what you are saying, but I would say what constitutes 'healthful behaviour'? I think I do pretty well in life, I've achieved a lot (I don't mean success, necessarily, just anything I'm proud of)_ am generally nice to be around and have lots of interests and a talent for making people laugh. I am uncertain that I want to become a drone, or that we should all be evened out. I know if behaviour is distructive that isn't a good thing. But I also know that if I want to eat cake, I will (even though some people tell me it will make me die younger)... I dont' care about dying younger, but I do care about dying uninspired. Quality not quantity, I say. I have learnt to live with my depression, but mostly the time I feel worst about it is when I'm apologising to others, or feeling guilty that I do not function 'normally'. Most neurosis develops out of the mind trying to protect itself. I have had many occassions throughout my life to protect myself and so I would be a fool to imagine doing it any other way than I have. Most people do what they have to survive - whether it be voluntarily or involuntarily. It's a basic case of anthropolgy. I don't know why you're bringing up drugs again, though. I don't do drugs, and have never done so for any more than about 10 occassions in my entire life. Not all the world's ills come from drugs you know, and also, some of the things we see as ills are not necessarily so. The thought of a society who all eat the requisite food, go joggin in the morning, meditate in the afternoon and practise yoga before bed time, who drink no tea or coffee, bake no cakes, drink no wine, make no mistakes, sounds like the absolute worst society in the world and I don't want to be told that's what I should be aiming for, by friends, by the government, or anyone else.

"Well, I do see what you are saying, but I would say what constitutes 'healthful behaviour'? I think I do pretty well in life, I've achieved a lot (I don't mean success, necessarily, just anything I'm proud of)_ am generally nice to be around and have lots of interests and a talent for making people laugh." I think that severe and prolonged depression is 'unhealthful behaviour', which can be tackled often without the recourse to drugs. I also happen to think you come across as particularly delighful. The topic of this thread was drugs and their relation to depression was it not? I make little distinction between prescribed and proscribed psychoactive drugs... I happen to think they are both being abused excessively... and thus permeating suffering. Why do people keep thinking I am having a go at them, when I try and talk in the most general terms possible? I really must look at the way I phrase things, its happened far too often for it to be accidental. Just to be clear, I am not having a personal go at anyone on this thread. My opinions are strong, relayed with passion, but sincere. They are general ones and I don't see I have to apologise if they make people uncomfortable.

You're talking a lot of sense, fergal. I can really identify with most of what you are saying. It's good and encouraging to see someone who has evidently learned a lot from their trials and tribulations and has come out at the other end of the tunnel with some knowledge of herself. I think that's the best outcome any of us can hope for! [%sig%]

lleg wrote: "Why do people keep thinking I am having a go at them, when I try and talk in the most general terms possible?" Maybe because they are too general? Just a thought... [%sig%]

That is a good point pschmitt, and one I will take on board. I think you are right that I tend to skirt around particulars, and in response speak generally at people rather than directly in response to what they have said. It may be a common fault, when you are passionate about a subject, or it may just be my arrogant self.

I knew you weren't have a go at me spider, I was just felt inspired to explain, or expand on some things I've said. Thanks pschmitt for what you said. I suppose part of what I was rallying against could be summed up in Jasper's post:: <> That attitued really PISSES me off. IT's so judgemental, whilst pretending not to be, whilst pretending to be wise, and knowledgable, and better than that smoker - who so obviously deserves to die a painful death for deigning to be so stupid for smoking in Jasper's opinion. Ha ha, Jasper, wit on a stick. Do you really think life is as simple and as black and white as that? My dad died of lung cancer when he was 51 and he smoked his whole life. When he got sick he was devastated that his smoking had played a part. It was funny, because until then he was a dedicated smoker, but he renounced his whole life, guiltily imagining he had killed himself. He became obsessed with healthy living, and in fact his last words to me were, 'lose some weight'. My mother died of ovarian cancer when she was 44 and she smoked her whole life. When she found out she had cancer she poured herself another vodka, lit a cigarette and said, 'I am what I am'. I never got on with my mum in her life and me and my dad were very close. It is funny then, that the attitude I admired most when they faced death was my mum's. You may say, Jasper, that she was a fool, but the person who does one thing and pretends to be another is the bigger fool than the fool who knows it. Or something.

As I'm quite sure your doctor has told you...Don't stop taking it suddenly. I've not personally observed it have a positive effect, but that's only my observation. Good luck..if it's helping you, go for it.

Hi funky....long time no hear. I also had a positive experience with prozac some years ago. It worked as advertised. However, at some point it seemed that it was having no effect or perhaps a negative effect. It was not making me feel depressed, but I just had the feeling that it was 'too much.' As a result, I reduced the dosage very slowly over a period of about 18 months and then one day realized I hadn't had any for a week, no depression returned, and I actually felt better. That was nearly six years ago and I haven't needed it since then. OTOH, as you point out, if it is prescribed willy-nilly by some Doc Feelgood, it can cause huge problems. Others on this board have had horrible experiences with it, so it pays to be careful.

Glad it is working for you, Richard. I have had mixed results - Prozac probably gave me the worst fortnight of my life, which doesn't mean that it was a bad drug, just that it wasn't right for me. I don't take anything now, and haven't for over a year, so I have good and bad weeks. I don't think Prozac is a bad drug, just that it is over-prescribed. When you have it, you realise there's a huge difference between depression and feeling blue or down and I think it sometimes gets prescribed for the latter.

I was on cipramil for 6 months and it did ziltch, so they put me on mirtazapine - "Also encourages sleep," the doc said. lol...I can't sit down and relax for 5 minutes without falling into in a coma. You're right, theres a terrible stigma. During my worst time, my employers were placing all these demands and referring to the 'sickness policy' all the time and I asked them what their mental health policy was and they were..."um, ah, um, well...." I asked the personnel Manager whether she'd ask a person with a pair of broken legs to get up and walk.

I was ill for years, and on Prozac (fluoxetine) which just made me slowly sicker and sicker. Eventually I was diagnosed properly and taken off the prozac and put onto a series of several other drugs, which pushed me into a state that I would describe as barely above comatose. I came off them all more than three years ago, and life has just got better and better... I am glad it is working for you Funky, no one can say that you have an awful life, your life sounds positively delicious - but I think that many people hit a wall in their personal lives / careers / finances, which naturally results in depression. Instead of working through these issues to resolve them, they (understandably) go to a GP who prescribes the quick fix of prozac. Thats a sad sad thing.

Jasper - you're full of shit. I tried dlpa, 5-htp, valerian root. All were shite...ok, if you get a little blue over the winter, they're fine, but when you're talking serious serotonin depletion, you need something a little stronger. I was dead against anti-dedpressants myself. I used to believe that suicidal people were selfish - until I found myself 'down there.' It can happen to anyone. During those times, you're glad of the stronger synthetics, believe me! I jumped at the chance, coming from someone who used to try and 'convert' anyone who used any synthetics.

"Tell me guys, have any of you ever seriously tired 'St John's Wort' or 'Rescue Remedy, for depression..." Yep. Helps for very mild bouts, but that might be just some kinda placebo effect. Doesn't do eff all against anything serious. I'm on the fluox too, and give it the thumbs up. Had a very awful start, and had to go on beta-blockers to stop panic attacks, but then it kicked in properly. Like Funky, I wasn't really that up for it, but I was so stricken that I couldn't physically go to work (cos depression and exhaustion often go hand in hand, lest we forget). And I need to work in order to live. So onto the meds I went. And now I can work, even if it's still crap. So all is well. Next step: cognitive therapy to see it doesn't happen again. Huzzah!

I found Jude's post worrying. I asked a midwife and a doctor and on here if we should go ahead with baby, and everyone said yes. We are managing ok, but I do worry what it might be like for Marley, with different kinds of depression from mother and father in his genes. My cousin has it, my grandad had. I have. Not sure of Richie's family, though a great uncle tried to commit suicide I think. Thankyou 1leg :0) I hope you don't mind, I have copied and saved your post onto my computer. I remember reading a beautiful poem of yours about this

Fey - about your concerns re bringing up children when you have mental health probs... My mum has had a lifetime of mental health probs as a result of a difficult childhood. From an early age this affected me very much, but I believe you can arm yourself with the necessary understanding to try to avoid some of the things someone like me went through as a child. There's a fabulous book on this subject called 'The Drama of Being a Child' by Alice Miller. When I read it it was a revelation. It helped me to understand what had happened to me and then I was more able to see how I could recover from that. Me and my mum get on really well now, so I hope that's a comfort to you.

Fey, anyone with such openness of spirit as you is bound to make a good parent. Richie too. You worry too much... life is full of wonder, we just have to learn to keep looking at it with new eyes.

How can you laugh at your own depression? Beats me. I know what you mean, but that sounds as annoying as when my mum used to come round and bark, "pull yourself together, young man." I'm pretty much beating this now, but I still have a big sleep problem. Seems my whole body clock is fucked and I'm currently in a cycle of three days wide awake and 12 hours asleep. The mirtazapine makes me over-confident in social situations and I find myself checking-up every so often to make sure I'm not making a **** of myself. ;)

I can't make a very serious contribution to this thread because I've never had any form of anti-depressants. I have had terrible times in my life when I've barely been coping...after the separation etc...other times in years gone by when I've cried more often than smiled and lived in a state of complete physical stiffness and inertia and tension when noise becomes exaggerated and you just don't seem able to connect properly with your surroundings... I've been very fortunate that these periods in my life have been relatively brief and not persistent...and I'll tell you some of the things that have kept me going... communication of all kinds...writing, abctales and other forums, emailing...msn...all wonderful outlets...sometimes done to excess but this seems to be part of the process... Earl Grey tea...I never drink anything else...and Bergamot is said to be a mild anti-depressant...I have at least 6 cups a day... My children...their needs keep me busy and going through the front door on a regular basis... Avoiding sleeping at any other time except at night...it puts you into rem sleep and this is said to trigger emotional times... Food and drink - taking pleasure in it... Exercise...swimming expecially - a truly sensual experience that surprises the senses and is so meditative... Walking out and about...seeing the scenery, observing things closely, smiling at people you meet... I find that keeping these basic things going helps me cope and get through each difficult time. I'm sorry if it all sounds tame compared to some of the things I know you people have been through, and I know I am very lucky to have remained stable most of my life... I wish you all happiness...I think Liana's story is inspiring about getting off the drugs...

Note: The following are spoken from my experience, and the thinking I have applied to my situations to cope better with the depression I have suffered and will no doubt suffer again. I am not comparing mine with others with clinical depression, I accept each person is different and there are different scales to the problem, however I feel there are some general ideas that could be useful in ones armory of tools... me included. Who knows what could happen tomorrow? You have to learn to laugh at yourself, and if depression is a part of you, than you have to laugh at it, when you can. It may sound glib, but what I mean is you have to own it and accept it as it being part of YOUR reaction to the world... not a fait accompli of the events that have happened to you. If it is YOUR reaction.. with patience, humility and yes faith you can learn how to climb of out of the hole. It is bringing it under YOUR control. How powerful an idea is that? So long as you ascribe your depression to external causes, you are delegating the control away and living according to the whim of these 'external forces'. You will be up and down like a yoyo as events overtake you. Root in yourself, understand enough of yourself, forgive yourself for making humanly mistakes, be humble to accept you have got it wrong (that is the cause of your depression).... start listening to people you genuinely like and respect (friends and councillors) and start again. I really think drugs should be taken as a last resort, though accept that in some cases there may be little choice. In those hard cases I would consult genuine loved ones around you (who bear the brunt of the effects of depression) and ask them for advice. I now don't think of normal everyday depression as being a result of bad things that have happen to me, but only a temporary state until I learn better how to cope with things that have happened to me. Yes, I am a generally 'happier', more 'rounded' person then I used to be, and I ascribe it to this attitude.

No, Emma, there's a lot of force in that. Enjoying things that make you happy is one of the best things I can do to push depression away before it takes hold. That's all good advice.

Yes, Em, those all sound like good things... I just have to make sure I do them BEFORE I get to the point where doing them just seems completely undoable. I have never been to the doctor about my depression, if that's what you'd call it. I have been lucky enough to always share houses with people who are pretty cool about it, and then I do my classic 'run' thing, where I walk out of wherever it is I'm working, and just disappear for the day. I then come up with a brilliant reason of why I did it and carry on as normal. (I'm running out of good excuses actually). My need to keep up appearances usually gets me through, just about. I realise that this can not continue, but the fear of going to the doctor is massive, as I don't know how to actually describe myself when I'm loopy when I'm feeling okay (the difference is huge). I'm wondering if it's okay to be loopy sometimes. I don't want to take drugs to feel better. 'Well I know I look fine now, Doc, but just yesterday I was crawling around on all fours in my kitchen, weeping for hours and serioously considering slicing my belly open with a bread knife'... just doesn't come out of my mouth in a natural manner.

Most doctors I've been around will not hesitate to medicate you for anything and everything. I'd try making changes in the fundamentals of your lifestyle before I started gobbling pills. The pills can cause you more grief than you've ever imagined if you allow it. "Keeping up appearances" is telling. If I had to go through life pretending to be something I'm not, I'd be depressed too.

Oooh, Gary, you just said something really helpful without knowing it. Thank you.

Vous êtes bienvenus.

I was once prescribed flouex, Paxil, Amitriptyline, citalopram...in the end it was actually a change in my own attitude that helped me. I'm not saying meds don't help everyone, clearly they do and can be a lifeline but they don't work for everyone. and too many GPs are just so busy they just keep throwing happy pills at everyone without getting to the route of the problem

it aint easy man , have had a lowsy couple of days just now , medication or no medication you still get highs and lows - I even contemplated suicide , which I haven't done in a long while , it wasn't no drug which saved me, but a poem fay wrote , which came back to mind as I stood on the edge. sometimes I feel like giving up hope that I'll ever get better , seratonin or no seratonin the killer is still lurking in the shadows - but at least with the medication it helps to stop me dwelling on it too much... and to snap out of it quicker , which I couldn't do before. found this article on the internet which I thought was interesting ; is about how the brain can make new neurons - I had been told at school that once your brain cells died that was it , you didn't make anymore ; but there is new growing evidence which shows the contrary , that we do in fact make new brain cells - and reading this made me feel maybe it isn't all hopeless - whichever way you look at it , or interpret it , either by pharmacology or self help - this article made a lot of sense to me http://www.biopsychiatry.com/newbraincell/index.html keep it real (-: [%sig%]

although I wish scientists didn't experiment on animals , it really isn't fair , animals are living breathing things that feel pain , what right do we have to test things on them , as if we are more important than they are .... grrrrr

Richie ... you sound like me when I was on Prozac... during the "up" times I was almost maniacal... would tell people how fantastic prozac was, what a wonder drug... it had saved me. It became almost a religious fervour. During the down times, (especially if used with alcohol) I ended up behaving so irrationally it must've really alarmed those around me. Then a psych told me that having BPD, prozac was always going to make the highs higher and alter the lows - I came off it. I tried therapy - didnt work. I tried other drugs - didnt work. I got worse and worse. During this time I couldnt possibly have laughed at myself (the very idea ffs). I fixed it - or started to fix it, by giving things up. This was kind of inevitable really, because I had little choice in the matter - and eventually taking things - different things back, giving myself power. I think you said a while ago that you were working in a call centre? Well, I know needs must etc, but that cant be doing anything at all for a person like you. Keep the job if you need the money desperately - but make sure you are doing something for YOU. Do you have any savings? At all? If so, start taking courses - you can do them in distance learning (I know you are fairly remote where you are living). Someone like you has a LOT of brain power going on, and I reckon it is all going in the wrong direction - focussing inwardly too much. You need to do something to balance the soulnessness of the call centre or whatever. Take something for you... those around you will be much happier for it. Sometimes you can't face things, but personally I only started to heal when I went back to Uni, and gradually one by one, faced those things that had spiralled me into such a state in the first place (hence my recent return to Belgrade). You heal yourself mate, no one or no one thing, will do it for you. *hugs*

Isn't it common knowledge that the 'bottled sunshine' drugs are only of use to 'clinically depressed' people? An eminent psychiatrist told me that they are worse than useless to those suffering from 'normal' ie. non-clinical, depression. There is a vast difference between the two.

thanks for replying , I found all your responses interesting and helpful. I think some doctors aren't checking their patients out properly and are mis-diagnosing them ; this I believe is due to them being short staffed and having so many appointments to get through in a day ; they're tired, overworked and only have so much time to spend with an individual , so they want to give them a quick fix , a quick simple answer , so they can hit the 'next' button , which makes the wee light flash in the waiting room, and this is sad I agree. Counselling costs the NHS more money than prescribing a pill does ; and there is a shortage of counsellors , and a huge waiting list ; but this kind of therapy would suit better those who are not suffering from a chemical imbalance... Myself I needed the medicine , as I wasn't making enough serotonin in my body to function properly. I couldn't snap out of depression and it wouldn't go away , I couldn't find much joy in anything and I had nothing to be depressed about; yet found myself sad all the time. I was locked in a spiral - I didn't want to talk to anyone , hated chat, despised communication of any sort , hated people ; was scared when someone knocked on the front door , would hide out of sight ; would have panic attacks in supermarkets , would never answer the phone , would have trouble sleeping , had very low self esteem , felt guilty all the time ; couldn't stop thinking about the same thing over and over , even if it was just a trivial thing I couldn't stop beating myself up for it , I threw myself off a sea wall several times, cause I wanted to harm myself ; would run into walls as hard as I could, to try and break free from the spiral, try and knock myself out , contemplated suicide regularly, everyday in fact - and I was like this for years, getting steadily worse. I did get counselling pretty quickly, but found this didn't help much, the counsellor told me to get elastic bands on my wrist and slap myself when I thought about harming myself to snap out of it , this never worked , she tried to get me to use chinese health balls , telling me everyone should have them ; she would ask me on a scale of 1 to 10 how I was feeling , sometimes I would cry , other times I would be telling her I wanted to die and she would give me a blank look... anyway before I bore you all to tears , I will end now , but will leave on the note that I feel doctors need to learn proper skills to discern which depression is which , so that people aren't prescribed the wrong medications & misdiagnosed. medicines which affect the mind are very dangerous if given to the wrong person , I would never encourage anyone to take fluoxetine just cause their feeling low ; there must be some basic tests doctors could do to correctly diagnose the differing types of depression , as it is a growing health problem , but with lack of funds , I guess this is a nice idea but unreal. [%sig%]

My shrink told me that ppl must think I'm gay because I have long hair...really.

He said to me, "why don't we just call depression ..um... **looks around the room - snaps his fingers** chair leg - it's just a word." He hadn't read my case notes atall and spent thirty minutes describing medication to me and then said, "right! So we'll put you on this, 40mg a day, it'll take about two weeks to kick in and..." "um, hold on," I said. "I'm already on it." Then he flicks nervously through my notes and starts again. "ok - tell me a little about yourself." So I'm mumbling away while he starts fumbling with the wrapper on a bleedin snickers bar...lol..."you might not see me again," he says, "I'm being transferred." Oh really - demoted, don't you mean. It's dire.

just as a side view here on something mentioned earlier. The complaint that doctors are happy to just stick you on drugs before your chair's even warm is a little harsh on the medics I feel. [at this point I should state that I've never suffered depression or, therefore, been prescribed any drugs] Those I've known that have been depressed and have been on medication naturally see it as a last resort. In other words their first and only response to suggestions other than drugs is "I've tried that and it doesn't help". By the time they're in a doctor's room they're already seeking something outside of their own attempts to deal with life and are often looking for a 'fix' and this is partly why doctors are putting so many people on drugs I think. Not because they want to be on drugs (although there are those who see a prescription as a certificate of authenticity for their illness) but because it's hard to go there and be told that you could sort yourself out with some councelling etc. It's tantamount to being told to pull yourself together and that, in turn, would suggest that you're not trying to beat your condition. I would imagine that this seriously hampers a doctor's ability to suggest alternatives although, as a doctor, the attitude of his patients shouldn't factor in a decision to resort to medication but I'm sure it does.

I'm appalled by some of the things said about counsellors on here! How on earth are such inadequate people practicing? I have a counselling qualification and nothing that's said here would get past a properly supervised practicing counsellor...you do have to be very careful about choosing the right kind of counselling. There is such a lot of it going on out there, parading as professional practice.

Ah, counselling. The doc recommended I look into that before I make a decision about medication or not. But I've done it before, and it does seem to be just talking. Which is fine, but I do that already. All the time. I just found I didn't really need to have someone else to talk to, and I was simply repeating conversations I'd had with other people. I was also given the leaflet with all the alternative adjustments in it (doing things which make you happy, exercise, good eating etc.) and advised to try them all before I opted for meds. In actual fact, le docteur was in no hurry to prescribe them at all, and only did so on my third appointment, when I said I was thoroughly convinced that they were worth a shot. "Yes, Em, those all sound like good things... I just have to make sure I do them BEFORE I get to the point where doing them just seems completely undoable." This is the crux of the matter... and the thing which it's very hard to convince skeptics of. Not to take the matter lightly, but I've had enough conversations with people who say, "When I feel depressed, I do this...." and it does get rather irritating. Very tempting to tell them they're comparing apples to oranges, and don't understand 'real' depression, but that would be twattish.

Emma..be appalled...I once had a horrific psychotherapist. Because the only regulatory bodies are voluntary and inadequate ...these cash bleeding parasites get away with it. I think the government should insist on the same regulatory measures for councellors and therapists as there are for doctors and dentists

Emma Thankyou, will look for it on Amazon :0)

<> Yes, absolutely, Hen - and that's why I said all the other things I said about not making a deeper contribution to the thread etc... I do very much understand that such activities are part of the management of a situation, but also that depression comes in various degrees and sometimes is unresponsive to the lighter approach that I suggest above...these things really are management and preventative things, not suggestions for people who really are in the midst of very deep depression. As I said, I have been lucky to have had only relatively short-lived episodes of deeper depression of the debilitating kind. I think having my children has FORCED me to keep going and get up out of bed and leave the house regularly. I have taken the kids to school on days when my eyes have been swollen up like tomatoes, I've come home and lay down for the rest of the day in agony, then had to get up again to pick them up, and their chattering and all their needs has kept me going, forced me to respond to the here and now. I still very much believe in the power of communication. I don't know how many words I get through in the average day, it must be pretty incredible when I think about it. I am writing all the time, letters and emails and posting on the threads, creative work...I think my therapy through words started when I was a very young girl and we moved abroad. I wrote reams of letters home to friends and even recorded taped messages. I think your experience of counselling as another form of talking misses the point a bit. Unless your friends are using proper counselling skills they can't reflect back to you in the way that a professional can in order for you to work through your issues effectively. I do think it is hard to find a good counsellor, but when you do, it is very helpful indeed. I have been lucky and had some sessions with a good one based with my GP, I found it very different from talking with friends, as she is a dissinterested party etc - there is no way of getting that except through a professional service.

Hmm, yes, interesting reading - but a bit out of date? I don't know how things have progressed since then, I hope there has been some improvement in the situation. I was very impressed with the course that I followed. It came under the umbrella of the BACP at the time and had very thorough parts in which code of conduct was examined and interpreted in depth and all issues of responsibility and legal factors were looked at. It also had strict rules about the number of people in each study group and the whole process from the very start seemed to filter out people who would not have the necessary integrity to follow the course to its conclusion with success. It was one of the steepest learning curves I've had, and I value everything I learned on the course greatly, it has affected the way I respond to people in both small and greater ways in my day to day life. It was person-centred counselling. In the long-run I have contemplated continuing my training and moving into an integrated area of counselling which used both the analytical psychology of Carl Jung, for which I have a great deal of respect, and the person-centred approach.

A warning against St John's Wort btw... It renderes the contraceptive pill less effective. whe I was down and money was one of the worries, an unplanned pregnancy would have made things wose no doubt :-)

I don't think much has changed since 2003...nothing crucial Most therapists are registered under UKCP rather than BACP. The following issues I find disturbing - Membership of UKCP is based on hours of therapy completed, training and a brief inspection of a practice if appropriate. This does not -ensure the training received is of a certain quality - ensure that the hours practiced (it is several hundred) are of quality. The organisation to which the therapist who caused me a lot of harm was part of was run by a husbnd and wife team plus their friends. "Supervision" is therefore carried out by someone who isn't going to be impartial. If the UKCP were to be effective it would carry out impartial supervisory inspections of quality of service given. My other problem with UKCP is the complaints procedure. - Initially you must complain to the organisation to which your therapist belongs, otherwise UKCP cannot pursue your complaint. I was put off doing this because someone else who posted on a forum on the subject revealed he had experienced a similar bad experience with the organisation. When he complained, all her chums leapt to her defence saying they would defend her whatever. He was so intimidated he didn't have the courage to go above them to UKCP until 2 years later. By this time it was too late...complaints must be dealt with within 18 months. I couldn't face being intimidated in the same way. If UKCP is to be effective it should act as a mediator for complaints from the outset!

This is NOT a self help book... However it does bring together a lot of fairly recent research and speculation into the whole areas of operation of the brain, consciousness, drugs and depression. It is not 'definitive', in fact if you look for things that are 'definitive', that is part of your problem. It is written accessibly and is not a big tome... I thoroughly recommend it. I would like to know what other people think of it. 'The Private Life of the Brain' by Susan greenfield Buy it through ABC of course, If you are going to. Looking above at the reviews on Amazon, thay are quite a mixed bunch. Something that always attracts my attention, when it comes to trying to see if something may be worthwhile. On the subject of switching on to things that bring you out of depression, it is a good idea to bring yourself in touch with objects, when you are feeling low. Objects are very therapeutic. I like for example running my fingers over various surfaces, feeling textures. Crushing vegetation with finger and smelling the fresh aromas etc. You could do this anywhere anytime. The beauty and richness of our world is that in whatever direction you narrow your gaze, you find glorious worlds of detail, and the more you look, the more you find. In the midst of such untramelled, infinite beauty, everywhere you look (and do look in the smallest of places, like a patch of soil, or the rust pattern on a car)... you cannot but help but feel uplifted. Space and movement... we take this so much for granted as we get older. There is much pleasure to be had fom just moving in 3d spaces. Stick out your hand, watch it move way in pespective and grab something, then bring it back to you. Marvellous and a miracle. Sit back and place yourself in a corner of the room, see all your familiar objects around you, raise your awareness of them. Just think how they came to be there (and if you have surrounded yourself with objects that have meaning, think to the time, love and thought spent on each of these by inumerable people, going back through the ages). If you rewind time, there they will be again, chipping away, creating, thinking, making it take shape. That is the ultimate of truths and will never change, every second that you live counts and is recorded permanently in time. And the rammifications of how you use time, when you have it? It will splay down into the future of the universe in untold of ways that no human can judge. If that thought does not bring you in connection with reality, I don't know what will. You should be inspired, to go out and create... And the finished work should be aimed to give someone pleasure, challenge them, make them think, sometime in the future. You will find yourself happiest when you are partaking in what I believe is the spiritual act of creation. The world and the ability to percieve it (being alive) IS a glorious priviledge. It becomes clearer as you come to approach a true understand of things, and your place in it.... depression is often when YOU have/ are getting things wrong.... it is a lack of understanding. I know this is strongly put, but I believe it of myself first rather than anyone else. When I am sinking to a depressive state, I know I have more to learn... in some ways I can also get excited about that too.

The problem with depression is that everyone is different. Depression isn't n abstract thing we can define...it is a paricular state of being which is manifested differently in different individuals. So each person has to be looked at on a case by case basis. What helps me may not help someone else. Prayer for example helps me but for someone else it may have too many childhood connotations of guilt. I like being hugged...but some people may find this intrusive. I don't thin advice can be dispensed other that "hang in there" and "get some help/ stick with the help" !

I was out in the garden one night having a ciggy. It was a cool, clear night, lot's of stars. Suddenly, asif a small section of the night had been sliced open with a knife, a great ball of flame entered and made it's way across the sky and then burnt out. Must have been approx 10 seconds worth. It amazed me. Later on that night I began to suffer heavy adrenalin rushes, I can only describe them as the feeling you sometimes get just after watching a scary movie. Anyway, they became so bad during the next couple of days that I had to leave all the lights on in the house because I was confident that someone, somewhere had set out on a journey to hunt me down and kill me. Then the depression began to set in and it numbed me. Everything I enjoyed doing, every chore that would have otherwise been executed easily, became almost impossible to get my head around. I found myself getting up out of bed in the night, so empty and scared that I considered on many occasions just dropping some pills and settling down on the lawn outside, watching the stars and just drifting off to sleep. It's difficult for males to go and sit in front of a doc and tell him/her that they feel sad. It feels embarrasing to do so. It did for me, and it took me 4 months before I was at the point that I just didnt give a shit what anyone thought of me. That was last August. The docs were great. They still are. I refused anti-depressants at first, and then jumped at them when I could no longer take how I was feeling, and acting. Currently, I don't sleep at night, because I'm off guard and I hate waking in the mornings. It suits me to stay up at night and be awake when the sun rises, instead of the sunrise waking me. I nod off in the day, I get about 3 hours a day. lol..I got a call from the crown court this morning - I was supposed to be on jury service for two weeks. I can't even recall being informed that I was to do it. I apologised and told them that they really would be better off without me. She paused and snapped, "we'll ring you back!"

"I don't think advice can be dispensed other that "hang in there" and "get some help/ stick with the help" !" If that's all what was said, t'would be a very boring thread indeed. It is useful to bring different experiences to bear.... someone might take something useful away from it. I think prayer, meditation is a good thing, and there are millions of ways of doing this... to suit every person. Forcing yourself into awareness of what is around you and the world of the senses is good general advice, as depression is often at the other spectrum of 'too much circular thinking'.

Well the Doctor actually told me that SJW makes the pill ineffective...tis true... I wasn't being entirely serious about the rest!

Good point 1leg I'm a bit wary of making statements like ... 'too much circular thinking' I think it may in some cases lead to self-blame...its my thinking that's causing this...its my fault On the other hand I don't like the complete jettisoning of responsibility as in it's not my fault I'm an alcoholic/ depressive/ co-dependent...it's the fault of my childhood/ upbringing/ schooling/ circumstance/ genetics