When is it coincidence and when is it Censorship?

Dear John: I don't assume you're joking... I assume you're a joke... Warmest regards: Paul

Thanks for your regards Paul - sleep well.

Myckle... I wonder if "A Clockwork Orange" would have cut-the-mustard on this site? It's not a matter of thinking I'm a good writer... I've been told by enough people who matter that I am... As I pointed out a few posts ago, your very own Tony proclaimed that Torturing Tanya was "well written and well constructed." IF I can find a way to present a "horrofic" story and get it by the filters, I'd have to assume that it would therefore be legal in your small(minded) corner of the world... IF I can manage that, I won't have to worry about "f uckwit" like Dear John calling the constables on me, will I? (Don't you just love people who don't use the word... I was just ridiculed for using a$$hole... but f uckwit is ok... Gives me a great idea... I can just use spaces and post the story here! ;-) (Don't worry... that's too g od d amned easy... I won't take the easy way out... besides the f ucking battle is half the f ucking fun!

Fish: You can put your hand down now... that part of the class is over... (Professor Paul does give you extra credit for keeping it up so long... (gee, hope that line isn't too suggestive for the more sensitive ones here!))

I haven’t read Burgess' novel but Clockwork Orange was a great film. Stanley Kubrick withdrew it for much the same reasons as I outlined earlier. It was not re-released until after his death. The film was ahead of its time and very thought provoking - something I think you’ll agree you work lacks Paul. It also offered an interesting solution: The Ludovico Treatment, which Alex willingly signed up for, which created a physical aversion to violence within him by forcing him to watch videos displaying rapes and murders. Accompanied by perception-altering drugs, these movies made him sick to his stomach, eventually causing a physiological hatred of violent acts.

"Well" at 75 years old I am certainly being educated not to mention entertained at 4am in the morning by reading some brilliant writing by you all, ok I may not be to qualified but that's how it comes across to me and if!! e-griff!! "That's" over doing the humble!! bit "well" so be it because I could never put such educated words down as I have just read, because as I have said before I never had any education but I am getting one now (they say its never to late) and I am enjoying every minute.. But to the task in hand and I will start by saying I have never read this piece but don't think that comes into it. This is ABC Sales website they have been very fair and put out a referendum (wish I could say the same for Tony Blair) as usual I digress sorry just can't help myself) and the voice of the people have been heard so now because it is there site also they know more about the fine print than most of us, they should have the final word on the subject.. I stop to wonder if Paul who wrote that piece has ever been "Tortured" himself as I was from the age of 2 years right up to the age of 12 and I have a saying for what its worth "Every experience in life has to be lived before you qualify to speak about it, so to write about torture is beyond me" maybe because the world has changed so much since my day and I "am" elderly who am I to say.. By the way Paul I put my hand up as I!!! have had something published and been paid for it, twice!! in fact for the same piece.. (Wonders for me will never cease)

Burgess wrote Clockwork Orange in response to a break in at his house, during which he and his wife were tortured by thugs. The violence in the book sickened him and he had to get drunk to finish chapters. But the book gets beyond his initial feelings of "lock em up, give em the birch" and into considering whether lacking a moral choice might be worse than someone choosing to do evil with that choice. In short, there's a point to it. Would I allow Clockwork Orange here ? Yes, if it were written by Burgess (and we can't have copyright infringement either, so no posting up big chunks of it). Would I have Justine by De Sade here ? No.

I've come late to this thread, but I feel qualified to add my sixpennorth - at the moment, I'm doing some work for abc and my monthly column for thoughtcafe's on that site. And yes, I've just sent away to "proper" non-vanity mags for the first time, with three acceptances so far. Right, qualifications over.. phew. Tc doesn't have the same system as abc, relying on a disclaimer before reading "adult" material. Whether this offers sufficient protection, I don't know, and I've just mailed the editor to alert her. Yes, I've checked out some of this story on tc, and I've never seen anything as stomach-churning. So, do we actually possess "free speech" to post what we like? Of course not - no-one can post racist or homophobic material, for starters. Freedom isn't absolute in any real society, it's relative, and the boundaries are constantly being re-defined. Before the internet, what publisher would have given this sort of stuff any credence at all? Only, I suspect, some grubby under-the-counter operation. Paul, your blustering, arrogant attempts to justify yourself would be pathetic if they weren't so downright funny. It's quite possible to write a powerful, terrifying story based on the same themes; but, with a little subtlety it could have been acceptable. The minute detail, which is the truly sickening part, simply isn't necessary. Violence just off-screen, and in measured quantities, is usually more frightening and effective than that shown in glorious technicolor. It just takes more thought and skill. I'm not alleging that your writing isn't highly competent - because, from what I've seen, it is - I'm saying that no-one has the right to publish such vile material. Your happy ending simply doesn't justify the means used to get there. It reminds me of the Victorian pornographers who loved abusing women, usually of the lower social classes who couldn't resist, and always ended with "And it was a pleasure for her!" Cobblers. I also object to being classified, as one of those benighted souls with the temerity to disagree with you, as someone whose imagination runs to nothing more than the missionary position. Oh dear, oh dear.. I don't know how old you are, but I suspect that I was way beyond that stage when you were filling your nappies. The difference is that I only classify sex, or whatever you may call it, as pleasurable if it's mutual. Full stop, no arguments. Sexual torture should be beyond the pale for any normally-balanced person. (As a certain Mr Milosevic is currently, and rightly, discovering.) Finally, could I congratulate the regular editors for having the courage to place this "material" where it belongs.

In the end I did manage to read all of the story and I stand by my fist analysis - dull and deranged! The debate is far, far more interesting than the story and gives it a publicity it does not warrant or deserve.

Mykle, wasn't that the idea? Still, at least it serves to illustrate the incredibly wide variety of material and opinion that this site (and tc, in this case) attract. There was one useful end-product, though: in the eternal argument of "what is pornography, and what is erotica?" - this is, without doubt, a fine example of pornography.

Ok...I've refrained from jumping into this discussion until now because I'm trying to figure out if people are just opposed to Paul's subject matter or if there really is a legitimate reason for banning it from this site. I was(and still am) trying to understand the reasons for censoring anyone's writing. If this genre of writing is against the law in the UK...then why was it ever allowed to be shown here in the first place? I agree wholeheartedly with andrew pack...that should Paul, be submitting this story as a screenplay or to an editor for publishing, he'd best submit it somewhere that deals in this type of material. stormy made some valid points in his critique of this story. Probably some of the same points a potential publisher or producer would make. It is long and repetitive in spots. I would have also liked to have seen some of the characters 'filled out' a bit more. Unlike many of you I initially read the story in it's serialized format...which, as Paul has stated, makes some of the critisisms a moot point. I have to conclude that if this type of material is against your laws or the TOS of your site, then by all means keep it out of your country and OFF of your site...BUT! I would like to caution everyone not to judge a person you do not know personally by the subject matter they write about...especially in a fictional piece of work. We all have an opinion on what we like and what we don't like...I personally write about the things that make me happiest or the most disgusted. Writing IS a way of dealing with our fears AND our hopes and dreams. It becomes a means for us to express what is most important to us. I know for a fact that Paul uses his writing to deal with how appalled he is by the evil and ugliness he knows lurks in the hearts of men...he puts it out there in it's most vile form and then finds a way to exorcise it or extinguish it. We all have a choice as to what we like and dislike. We all have a choice as to what we agree and disagree with. We all have the choice to face or ignore evil and ugliness. We also have a responsibility to understand things at the level for which we are attacking them.

Yes, yes, yes, but we don't have the right to impose our stuff on all and sundry and expect it to garner acceptance. We also have the responsibility to be aware of acceptable limits and thereby negate the need for censorship. In effect we all have to be our own censor, that doesn't mean stuff like Pauls shouldn't be available, it means he should make it available in the appropriate place. And that ain't here!

I agree...which brings me back to my original question. Why was it allowed to be posted here in the first place if it is illegal or against the TOS of this site?

Can we just put it down to an error of judgement? Surely something we have all been guilty of at least a few hundred times.

God's Bollocks! 1. paul is a good writer- excellent- everyone agrees 2. ONE story was contentious 3. abc agonised in great depth and came to a conclusion which was fully explained and NOT personal. then:- 4. Paul gave personal abuse 5. some abc members gave personal abuse In my view 4&5 were BOTH wrong and all should be ashamed. I think Paul should just accept the decision, we should let the matter close. He should stay on the site, write more good stuff, which will be appreciated. I believe the matter will be quickly forgotten, and he can rely on support from abc in the future, and friendly comment. Don't pick at the scabs, guys. an independent friend. (and no! I haven't read the story, because I am an old fogey, who probably (but not necessarily) would hate it and did not want to be biased! and this is not about the story.....)

I tip my hat to you e-griff. Mistakes have been made on both sides. A person's writing should be posted based on the audience it is trying to attract...or, it should be posted as a means to better it and improve it so it can go on to possibly be published or produced to make the writer some money for all his hard work. Attacking the writing or the person on a personal level benefits no one. And...as we've all witnessed, pisses everyone off.

Just a very small but I think important point. Andrew Pack said way back near the start of the thread: "I don't think it was shitty, badly written porn - but it was erotica that was more sexually explicit than abc is really intended for - horses for courses." I think this gives an incorrect impression. It ISN'T because "Tanya" is sexually explicit that all this row has blown up, nobody writing here is against sexual explicitness as far as I know, it's because it glories in the torture and mutilation of a woman and, by some totally incomprehensible piece of logic, links this to sexual arousal. I think the story is about as erotic as a description of someone eating their own vomit. Sexually explicit? No, just revolting.

Sirat, I couldn't agree with you more - it's a question of boundaries. Just think, those of you who find this acceptable.. would you still find it accepatable if the subject of this sexual torture was an animal? I wouldn't. Worse still, a child?? Don't jump down my throat, because I'm not saying that this writer WOULD tackle these themes - though they're not far beyond the ones he tackles here - I'm saying that some-one might, and possibly has, if we but knew about all the stuff that's been rejected by ABC. Everyone has boundaries, absolutely everyone - even those who profess not to are repulsed by something. Their brain wouldn't be wired up correctly if that were not so. Therefore, it's all down to taste. Some may not find sexual torture revolting, but I do, and it's only my own opinion that I take responsibility for. If others get off on such material, keep it private.

What concerns me, more than anything else about this piece, is the fact that it is available for children to read on another site. For this, if no other reason, I sincerely ask Peter to withdraw it and perhaps post it on a more suitable site! Surely, commonsense should prevail, otherwise I’m sure that some action will be taken under the obscene publications act. There is NO doubt that this is not a children's story! So either Peter should remove it or the site should.

I have made my "Thought" on this plain to the offending site and I think others should do the same. Do you want your children to be able to read about the rape and sexual mutilation of a woman?

No. You are right Mykle. I am a member of thoughtcafe though and I cannot tell them what to do. I mean I read a story of stormy here although it has a rate of 18 age if a kid has created an account giving false information he/she can read almost anything... I can't say that the story of stormy is that disgusting as peter's but it's not the kind of story I would permit my child to read. I think that above all there should be parental guideness when children use Internet. But then, sites that are supposed to be considered safe are not that safe as they say they are. And this applies not only on thoughtcafe but also Abctales.com. Those that want to spread their malignant perverted stuff they'll do it...

The point is that ABC have withdrawn the story Sky. I have sent several emails to try to persuade the other site into removing the story at least until it can add safeguards to prevent under 18's from reading it. I urge everyone reading this to do the same as soon as possible!

Here are a few words of comfort to all you worried parents: from Jonathon Beckett of Thoughtcafe. The piece on the site has a mature content warning on it. This was designed for exactly the purposes you describe. There is NO WAY on the internet of stopping children from seeing in-appropriate content. Just like there is no way you can stop them seeing top shelf magazines... We are doing the most sensible thing we can, and have been all along. Jonathan p.s. if you have a better way of stopping children, we (and several million websites) would love to know.

Perhaps they should check out the competition! ABCtales, as you know, has a far better method than just warning kids that the content is mature.

I think we are making a mistake by widening this debate to include any other site.

absolutely right David. This debate finished two days ago. Why it continues is a mystery. I get fed up with some of the stuff here that is loosely described as poetry. Surely that is a perversion and should be banned too? Mave

Hey, I knew Anthony Burgess, Paul, and you're no Anthony Burgess. Trust me, baby.

Mave, you're right, and it includes some of my own poetry! Wanna bet on whether this is the last comment of the thread? David

Can I invite you chaps over to the General Discussion Thread for a nice cup of tea and a convivial chat?

Thanks, Wonk. Uh, you got coffee?

The General Discussion Mall used to have 5 Starbucks but someone marked them down. We can offer lots of Lem.....ade, noodles and crunchies, though.

Be right there.

Oh Paul, you are an angry fellow. Ask the people who write childrens stories on here how often their stories get gobbled up by the swear filter. The filter picks up (a) any swear words and (b) any words it doesn't know - so unusual character names. I've just read your latest two and they certainly hit the mark for containing swear words. I've had more pieces that have caused me concern on the swear filter this week than in the last six months - not all Paul's I hasten to add. Free speech is important and you can write what you like, but equally this website is here for a reason and some of the submissions this week seem to cross a boundary. Call that censorship, rage against unfairness, protest that you are only reflecting the real world - or alternatively, just accept that strong sexual content and consensual sado-masochism is not what this site is about and go elsewhere. The providers and users of this site don't have the right to tell you what to write, but they do have the right to decide what they want to be exposed to by visiting the site. If you want to write strong erotica, fine, but this isn't maybe the best place for it.

Andrew: There are two seperate screens, one has this little blurb: Stories are randomly checked by our system to ensure there is nothing appearing on the site that is illegal, libellous or would cause undue offence to any of our readers, including children. The other has this one: We're sorry, but your submission activated our langauge filter, and has been passed to a site editor for checking before it is approved for re-entry onto the site. ABCtales do not censor or alter material in any way, but we do reserve the right to assign an appropriate age restriction to submission based on their content, and we will also remove any material which we believe to be obscene, defamatory, discrimnatory or illegal. Your story should re-appear on the site once it has been approved by an editor. Please beware that this process is most likely to happen in normal working hours, Monday to Friday, and that it may take a couple of days for an editor to get to your story. The fact that you are seeing this message does not mean your story will automatically be given a high age rating, or that it will be rejected. Sometimes, our langauge filter can get things completely wrong! I know, because I have gotten the first one of all the stories, the secone one when I tried to modify them in any way... I have to admit that I am curious how anybody can seriously believe they can not be "censoring" material when they admit they will "remove any material which we believe to be obscene, defamatory, discrimnatory or illegal" ??? ***** The point specifically is that you are inviting such material... and as long as there is such an invitation and an "18" area to place it, I will be doing so... (and I haven't tried to sneak anything into a "lower-rated area" as some people would... I make is clear that what I am writing is what I am writing...) In the "Torturing Tanya" thread, one of the participants sort of noted that the controversy does more to promote the material than anything else... every time I have to knock at the door, so to speak, it provides more people with the chance to know that I do offer an alternative to the same old silly-sweet-sane-sap... Probably the best way to discourage stories like Torturing Tanya, Irrational Fear, The Chair, When Monsters Meet, Old School, or The Perfect Man For The Job would be to allow their inclusion and then watch as nobody reads them... but the problem is; and I think even the prudes here realize this and are terrified; that somebody might actually have the cajones to admit they like this style of writing...

Paul, You say "I have to admit that I am curious how anybody can seriously believe they can not be "censoring" material when they admit they will "remove any material which we believe to be obscene, defamatory, discrimnatory or illegal" ???" There's a damn good reason for us "removing any material which we believe to be obscene, defamatory, discriminatory or illegal" This isn't censorship. It's because *it's the law* in the UK. Much as we want to give people a forum to share their work, sorry love, I'm not prepared to go to prison for you. Whilst your writing style is good, *I* have the cajones to say I do not like the subject matter of 'Torturing Tanya'. Women being on the edge of orgasm from being *extremely* physically mutilated is *not* something that I consider to be suitable for us to publish. Sure, sickos mutilating women happens but to present it under the auspices of erotica *and*, to not just assume that, but also to disseminate the idea that the woman in the story would get off by being torn apart internally by razors is not something I consider acceptable. The Obscene Publications Act states: "For the purposes of this act a person publishes an article when in the case of an article containing or embodying matter to be looked at or a record shows, plays or projects it, or, where the matter is stored electronically, transmits that data" So, that makes us liable for publishing your story. Further, it defines obscenity as: "Whether the matter tends to deprave and corrupt in accordance with the modern view as expressed in the charge of a jury" Am I convinced that a jury would not consider your story likely to 'deprave and corrupt'? No. As editor of the site am I liable? Yes Would I be prepared to go to prison for six months to three years to defend your story? No

If it's got swearing in it, it trips the switch and goes on the spike. Not difficult to understand, nor a recent addition. If it's illegal in the UK, it'll get canned. Don't like it? Find another site. There is no first amendment here, the story in question is astonishingly illegal under the Obscene Publications Act, and (for as long as my company is hosting provider), I can promise that it's staying off the server.

Odd that damn near evey vile and nasty thing to ever hit our shores has had it's roots in the UK... and yet you have laws to protect you from the very same thing... It's also odd that what one site has the integrity and the honor to allow creates such a ruckus htere... It's painfully obvious that this lot is so milketoast that the idea of even having an "18" section is simply to try to prove they're adult and open minded... The facts of this matter are: I submitted Torturing Tanya... it was accepted and posted... so apparently the "editorial staff" either didn't read it or didn't initially feel it was "illegal"... but some weasel or weasels chose to whine... The story was pulled... I was offered that if I could make a strong case for it's inclusion... present a case of the merits of the story, it would be returned to its' rightful place... I have made such a case... "heavy handed" perhaps, but overwhelmingly presented... it appals me that now it would become a legal issue... because that didn't just happen unless there was a special Torturing Tanya session to make it so... It is also apparent that like most people living in the dark, this group can't stand the light of the truth shining down on them... and instead of basking in it's warmth, wants to scurry like so many cockroaches for the nearest shadows... Oh well... run if you want, but you'll never be able to hide... the truth not only sets you free, but it tends to ruin the shadows... knowledge and wisdom tend to destroy ignorance... and the supposed bliss that comes with it...

Ah, so we should all go to prison and have a site that has benefited many people shut down simply so that you can have your story up for a short time before that happens ? I was willing to give Torturing Tanya the benefit of the doubt, but the subsequent pieces you've submitted make it clear that this is your genre. I'm sure plenty of people enjoy reading that genre, but they can read it elsewhere. I wouldn't have let your other pieces through the filter, regardless of this debate. Like it or not, every piece posted on abc impacts on everyone connected and associated with the site. The casual reader can read a dreadful sappy poem and it colours their impression of the site, equally they can read a story that tackles strong themes in a thought-provoking and responsible way and have a different view. Someone coming across Paul's stories as a new visitor would get an impression of the site that would be a false one - and it is a risk, because as a result of the volume on the site, the random button is a common approach to finding stories. Your logic is once again flawed - how does saying "We will remove material which is obscene, defamatory discriminatory or illegal" equate to inviting such material ? Thoughtcafe don't have editors that approve their material - they run the risk of being shut down for featuring material which falls foul of the UK law. That is their choice. Abc make a different choice.

Actually Andrew, this isn't my "genre"... it is ONE of my genre's... I also write love poetry, movie reviews, travel reviews, biographical and autobiographical non-fiction... but I believe any who aren't willing to share in the dark aren't worthy of experiencing the light either... Your opening paragraph on the home page refers to this as "probably the most exciting story site in the world"... I'd strongly suggest you "filter" that line of bullshit as well... "the most COWARDLY story site in the world" might be closer to the truth... and we in the States not only have freedom of speech, but we believe in TRUTH in advertising... Or maybe "exciting" has a different meaning in the UK? That must be it... Erotica can't be anything but fluffy... exciting can't get your pulse racing... and of course, your word means nothing... so why would anybody want to read the groups of them that you put "on paper?" Feel free to choose my closing to this letter... so I don't have to feel you've censored IT... a) Tally Ho! b) God Save the Queen! c) Carry On! d) Eat @!#$ & Die!! (I think you know the correct answer!)

Hmmmm. Paul. You are not a very nice man, are you?

If you truly believe that you have freedom of speech in the States and truth in advertising, then you are the one who is swallowing a line of bullshit. Can you stop this now? You're scaring me :)

wow! and I thought General THreads was exciting. Seriously, Emily, Andrew, thankyou for a fine defence of OUR freedom!

Just because you can use big words and you know how to punctuate, that doesn't stop you being a sado masochistic pornographer. There is no grey area. You're either an angel or you're the enemy. And you're the enemy. You don't have a right to be represented here or anywhere else. This isn't Heaven; it's just a web site. So take your sad, badly written, shitty porn and bugger off out of it, you onanistic, little knobhead. Rule Britannia.

Oi! No need to drag Britannia into this! :)

and this is sometimes heaven! (smiles...hmmmm...cherries)

Do you understand now Paul? I did suggest you might be in the wrong place! Now be a nice little pornographer and take your dirty raincoat elsewhere.

"we in the States not only have freedom of speech, but we believe in TRUTH in advertising" I have suceeded in copying and pasting this line, therefore it must really be there. If only the rest of his fiction was this funny.

"we in the States not only have freedom of speech, but we believe in TRUTH in advertising" I have suceeded in copying and pasting this line, therefore it must really be there. If only the rest of his fiction was this funny.

look it's not nice to say bad things based on different nationalities... do you have such good sites in the USA like abctales and thoughtcafe? I don't think so. Having searched the internet I have found few sites that are worthy and all of them are not from the U.S. ok, these british chaps managed to produce this vast site that is getting larger and larger... they are getting

better and better...