Science or Sorcery?

I think I just read it wrong - what's new ;o)

the silmarillion is divided into a number of parts, Ainundale, Valaquenter being the two remember. Could be your edition did not have Ainundale at the beginning...they were compiled posthumously by Christopher Tolkein

Yes, it does, I've found it and it's much better than the one on the link! There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Iluvatar; and he made the first Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thoughts, and they were with himbefore ought else was made. And he spoke to them, propounding to them themes of music; and they sang before him, and he was glad. But for a long while they sang only each other the alone, or but few together, while the rest harkened; for each comprehended only the part of the mind of Iluvatar from which he came, and in the understanding of their bretheren they grew but slowly. Yet ever as they listened they came to a deeper understanding, and increased in unison and harmony....

Perhaps Chris edited it after reading The Prophet :)

No little voice :) .. but as the theme progressed, it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Ilvutar; for he sought therin to increase the power and the glory of the part assigned to himself.

yeah it was melkor. It does sound a lot like the story of the fall of lucifer. However , it was the will of eru that he fall, because evil was part of his plan to make things more beautiful in the end. Sadness becomes a things chief beauty.

sorrow carves out the wells of joy

Just so, Funky.

not that I enjoy sorrow or anything - just being philosophical.

I'm not as sure about the "Sadness becomes a thing's chief beauty" though. I think like an imperfection can make someone beautiful rather than pretty that a measure of sadness can enhance that which was already beautiful.

Hey, Jude, sorry about all the confusion. In the end I think that the link must point to an earlier version of Ainundale - which is very interesting as it not only shows how Tolkien's work continually developed but probably gives an insight into how his thinking matured. I'm off to see if I can find any more... thanks :)

"immeasurable sorrow from which its beauty chiefly came" I do understand this...one only has to listen to very sad pieces of music such as requiems.

Tolkien's your man then Jude, Unfinished Tales...

Found this: 'Tolkien and Lewis are known as two of the world's, all time, greatest imaginative writers. They were Oxford dons and known as devout Christians yet they had a complex relationship with the heritage of ancient paganism. It can be argued that the tension between that and their Christianity produced much of the greatness of their work.' [%sig%]

My middle is riveted by the magicians nephew at the moment... the lion witch and the wardrobe is such a joyful book, that film i saw where aslan was like a victorian hunters trophy on wheels, was dire. The scene where he is sacrificed was such a mess, and in the book, the imagery is wonderful. I'd give my vote to the wishing chair too, or, the faraway tree. renee zelwegger for moonface please.

ha ha - or Cameron Diaz... I mean, seriously. She actually has a *moon face*. From the side. Or she's been hit with a pan.

or minnie driver, also known as david coulthard in drag? Bitch fest, yayyy.

Minne Driver also has a hug moustache.

hahah - I meant a 'huge moustache'

Jennifer Aniston sort of has a moon face too... I think it's because they all don't eat anything and end up with big witch-from-Chorlton-and-the-wheelies chins.

and renee zelwegger isnt fat but appears to have had ten layers of skin sandpapered off her face

She sleeps with her face in corned beef at night.

bugger, time out at the computer. Could've bitched f'rages. Tomorrow this will surely continue....

The books vaguely go like this The Magician's Nephew - Creation and the fall (Uncle Andrew's meddling in magic) The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe - The life of Christ The voyage of the Dawn Treader - addresses moral issues such as greed (death island) and respecting others (Lucy with the dufflepuds), trials of the soul (the island of nightmares). Reepicheep going ahead to the world's end could be seen as challenging the doctrine of post-humous unconsciousness until judgement day which is not mainstream xtian Prince Caspian - Loyalty to Christ since his ascension Horse and His boy - Equality of the all classes of people and that the poor are indeed blessed. The Silver Chair - courage, faith and the imprisonment of sin The last battle -The end of time Judgement day Characters Diggory/Polly - Adam and Eve Lucy - Faithful Xtian to the End, innocent unconditional love and trust Edmund - redeemed penitent Susan - xtian who eventually rejects the Faith and does not make heaven (see end of the last battle - she is "No Longer a Friend of Narnia" and "Cares only for make-up and parties) Peter- St Peter? White Witch/ Green lady/ shift the ape - devil or agents of Reepicheep - Xtian with virtues of courage - a warrior of the Lord (My Favourite Character) Puddleglum the Marshwiggle - In the parable of the two sons, puddleglum fits the bill of the second son in that he is always pessimistic but does what is right anyway Eustace - atheist through isnobbery but converts

That girl (Mischa Barton) off the O.C. could actually be what they discovered at Roswell.

the love of my life (Patrick) is ginger but not 100% he's mixed, a bit like thi Guinea pig I had as a kid

I get the feeling that you've thought a lot about it Jude :) I thought Andrew might treat us to a bit of his knowledge of The Golden Dawn...

Being a ginger girl as a kid makes loads of perverts come out of the woodwork. It's like a beacon saying, 'come and be creepy to me. My red hair suggests I l- even if not up for it - will put up with it because I'm used to it.'

I've certainly got more respect for ginger... now I've seen a bit more of Billie Piper :)

It is hard to miss the symbolism cos there is just sooo much. For example when Aslan releases Eustace who has been enchanted as a dragon this is an allegorical account of a conversion. Well, anyway, I looked up and saw the very last thing I expected: a huge lion coming slowly towards me. And one queer thing was that there was no moon last night, but there was moonlight where the lion was... So at last we came to the top of a mountain I'd never seen before and on top of this mountain there was a garden--trees and fruit and everything. In the middle of it there was a well. ...The water was as clear as anything and I thought if I could get in there and bathe it would ease the pain in my leg. But the lion told me I must undress first. I was just going to say that I couldn't undress because I hadn't had any clothes on when I suddenly thought that dragons are snaky sort of things and snakes can cast their skins. Oh, of course, thought I, that's what the lion means. So I started scratching myself and my scales began coming off all over the place. And then I scratched a little deeper and, instead of just scales coming off here and there, my whole skin started peeling off beautifully, like it does after an illness, or as if I was a banana. In a minute or two I just stepped out of it. I could see it lying there beside me, looking rather nasty. It was a most lovely feeling. So I started to go down into the well for my bath. But just as I was going to put my foot into the water I looked down and saw that it was all hard and rough and wrinkled and scaly just as it had been before. Oh, that's all right, said I, it only means I had another smaller suit on underneath the first one, and I'll have to get out of it too. So I scratched and tore again and this under skin peeled off beautifully and out I stepped and left it lying beside the other one and went down to the well for my bath. Well, exactly the same thing happened again. And I thought to myself, oh dear, how ever many skins have I got to take off? For I was long to bathe my leg. So I scratched away for the third time and got off a third skin, just like the two others, and stepped out of it. But as soon as I looked at myself in the water I knew it had been no good. Then the lion said--but I don't know if it spoke--You will have to let me undress you. I was afraid of his claws, I can tell you, but I was pretty nearly desperate now. So I just lay flat down on my back to let him do it. The very first tear he made was so deep that I thought it had gone right into my heart. And when he began pulling the skin off, it hurt worse that anything I've ever felt.

I didn't realise gingerness had such connotations! I'm shocked!!!

I wonder whether CS LEwis chose the name because of this: St. Eustace said to him “I used to live in the land of Persia in the province of the Arshakids, in the town of Gandzak. My father was a Magian and he instructed me also in the creed of the Magians. But I did not adopt the Magian creed, for in the city of Gandzak the Christians are in the majority, with their own bishop and priests, and from them T learnt beyond all manner of doubt that Christianity, the greatest of religions, is above all pagan beliefs. Now I believe in Christ and abide in Christ's service.”

I didn't think you could be shocked, Jude :)

I think you might have misunderstood Jude. Chris Evans' nickname is 'Ginger' and he has his own production company with that name. Chris is/was Married to Billie Piper.

right...i think she's a bit shite in Dr who

What did you think I meant? ;o)

ohh hard choice. The first attempt at hitchhiker's guide was watchable..but because it paled compared to the radio and books it was a huge dissapointment. Narnia on theother hand was true to the book and I thoroughly enjoyed the beeb production even though it was little more than a filmed panto!

I think the big danger with CS Lewis is to try and secularise his work which of course has very heavy Christian overtones...

Yes, Aslan son of the Great Magican turn out to be.... better not say just in case there are still a few who haven't read the whole series. Strange thing is that both Lewis and Tolkien were (allegedly) heavily into Buddhism but always portrayed as achetypal Christians :)

CS Lewis was an atheist who described his conversion in "suprised by joy" an autobiography well worth reading. He wasn't a typical Christian but his theology is excellent ("Mere Christianity", "God in th dock", "The pilgrim's regress") I've heard Catholics slag him off but they are just pissed of that such a great Christian mind was a devoted Anglican all his life and didn't convert! Tolkein, the Catholic's triumph was "Ainundale: The music of the Ainur" which was a creation myth at the beginning of middle earth...you can read it here and I would thoughly recommend Both men were not afraid of challenging things nor of opening their minds so it wouldn't suprise me they were "into" Buddhism...I am "into" Hindism and have a habit of hanging around vaisnavite temples!

I have a first edition of the Silmarillion, Jude, but I find I have to confess I had forgotten how beuatiful it is. The song of the Ainur inspired me to write "Love's A Song We All Can Sing."

I'd much rather see "The Wishing Chair - the movie" with the role of Chinky the pixie up for grabs amongst the Hollywood elite. Or a remake of "The Gnomemobile" now that I know for definite it was a real film and not just my imagination...

The Wishing Chair with Bill Murray as Chinky - or Tom Selleck. Or... Corey Haim or someone like that. The wishing chair could be played with the voice of Bruce Willis - although it never talks, it sort of hops about and makes a swishing noice. I was so completely bloody disappointed when I realised that there was no ointment in the world I could rub onto a chair to give it wings. Some scientist should be forced to develop it. Really. I'd like to see the Magician's Nephew made into a film rather than Lion. I don't know why everyone thinks that the Lion one is the best. I like that Edmund though. He knew that good quality Turkish Delight is worth everything. In the last TV adaptation he was ginger too.

Sorry, Jude. I've just got around to reading The Song of the Ainur on the link you posted and it's not the same as in The Silmarillion is it? I can't find my copy to confirm (most of my books are still in boxes over 3 months since I moved here). I don't remember 'The Least'and it seems a bit clumsy as if it were an early version. I thought it was Melkor, Sauron's master, that caused the dischord?

Zardoz with Sean Connery...

are you ginger fergal? I like ginger...most of us are condemned to walk around with dull black or brown hair...gingers have a flame atop!

Yep I'm 'ginger'... although dodgy men call it 'Titian'.... bullies at school called it 'Duracel' or 'carrot'.... A man the other day was introduced to me and said, 'Oh, I love your green top. Green and orange go so well together,' and then blushed the colour of a skinned sardine. I am one of those redheads (my preffered 'title') who has dark eyelashes and dark eyebrows, and it's a dark colour, rather than bright. I like it though. When I was a kid I never realised how rare it was. Sometimes I can be in a room full of more than a hundred people and I am the only one. It is nice.