Civilization at its finest!

Radio this is no more stupid than US gun culture, or UK and US policy in Iraq. Indeed a lot fewer people die this way, so it gets a very low ranking in the stupid shit stakes far as I'm concerned. Come to think of it they're a far older civilization than either yours or ours so who the fuck are we to mock them, specially when they don't have crazy gun laws or invade countries for no good reason. Taking all things into consideration I'd sooner have their civilization than ours any day.

and spidey, are you a man?

mender....I seriously doubt you know any more about US gun culture than you've gleened from television or the press. It's a myth.

"and spidey, are you a man?" Do you know, it's hard to tell close up.

I think it's best that some subjects are left alone... I will tactfully remove myself before I say something very un-archerlike.

And a hairy one to boot... Anything I said that made you think otherwise?

Ohhhh...go for it ole-pointy one.

Radio how many people per million die from being shot in the US, and how many per million die from the same cause in say the UK, Canada or Australia. I think you'll find there's an alarming difference. That's not a myth. That's a fact.

No, it's what you said that convinced me that you are, indeed, a very hairy man. With scabs on your knuckles, to boot...

Well, for starters...I own ZERO firearms. Secondly, I was at one point in my life an expert shot, but don't know what I could do today...it's of no interest. There is no doubt that many die from firearms that wouldn't die otherwise, I won't debate that in the least. I would challenge you though to tell me what the rate of death by firearm per firearm owned is... I would also challenge you to explain what you believe the "culture" you speak of is. My debate was with the myth of "the culture." Not with the goodness or badness of the existence of firearms. I have no inclination to debate they are good things.

These are old statistics but from everything I've read, things in the States are little better today. In 1999, approximately 10,096 people were murdered by guns in the United States. In 1998, over 30,000 people died from gunshots in the U.S. A gun kept in the home is 22 times more likely to kill a family member or a friend than it is to be used against an intruder. 10 children are killed by guns in the U.S. every day, on average. In 1996, handguns were used to murder 2 people in New Zealand, 15 in Japan, 30 in Great Britain, 106 in Canada, 211 in Germany, and 9,390 in the United States.

I'll buy that. Now...how many firearms exist in the United States? What is the death rate per firearm? Compare that to the rest of the world. Don't just use the popular facts, look at the whole picture. And....Tell me about this "Culture"

Well, I have no intention of hurting anyones feelings... to me abortion does represent a mutilation of sorts and since you brought up the subject... Lets leave it there however.

Yes, please, spidey, let's do leave it. I can assure you, it _is_ a big matter, _not_ a 'little inconvenience'.

The phrase 'gun culture' refers to the high number of guns in the home, the overwhelming power of the US gun lobby, the fact that even the 2004 democratic presidential candidate felt he had to be seen in a pro-gun photo opportunity, the idea that it is some natural human right to own a gun, the almost casual indifference that the US media has to the alarming death rate due to firearms, the relative ease with which you can buy a gun in the States (you try buying a gun in the UK and you'll see what I mean by that!).

<> Surely that's the whole point, Denver. Per capita more Americans have guns and the result is proportionately more deaths. How is that an arguement that US gun cultuture is a myth?

Yes Archergirl it IS a big matter... and I am not belittling peoples personal experience of it... more reffering to our general attitudes and the law which has brought about the horrible state of affairs that we have today... which is at odds to the impact it does have on peoples lives. I did not mean to cause any offence.

None taken, Spidey. We all have our views. Some are just a little more...incendiary than others... :-)

Interesting numbers.... Lets look at numbers.... I'll take Finland...Finland has a high ownership rate of guns...and compare it with the United States... Estimates vary, I'll use the high end...There are possibly 276 Million guns in the US. That is nearly one for every man, woman and child... In 2002 there were 30,242 gun deaths in the US (latest numbers I have) The number of gun deaths per firearm owned in the United States would be roughly...0.000116819 death per gun owned (2002) . Now look at Finland....1.7 million firearms owned....3316 firearm deaths per year...roughly...0.001950588 gun deaths per firearm owned. There is a bigger problem with gun death in Finland than there is in the United States. They just don't have the media exposure that we get. I would say by virtue of these numbers, Americans tend to be safer with guns than Europeans. Gun safety isn't part of the "Gun Culture" myth though is it, why, because it disagrees with the argument. Most gun deaths are suicides. If people killing themselves didn't have guns, we could reduce suicide rates, Finlands is much higher than the US. It would be an interesting study to find out the facts of other European and Asain "cultures" to see what all the numbers are. In my personal opinion, you could take them all and drop them in the sea. Wouldn't bother me a bit. We still haven't talked about the culture in any meaningful way though, and I'm prepared to educate you on that matter as well.

Ooooh, RD, you're so SHEKSHEH when you spout statistics... *runs tongue over teeth*

Nothing personal in this Radio, it's only that I get hacked off when westerners (UK and US folk) poke fun at obscure parts of other people's culture, and imply we are somehow a superior civilization. We are not. This is a very shallow civilization we have here - one built on mindless consumerism, collapse of the family, worship of youth, contempt for the elderly, rampant greed, instant gratification, over obsession with sex, tolerance of drugs, destruction of the environment, plundering of natural resources, relentless urbanization, lack of courtesy, no consideration for future generations, dehumanization of all aspects of society, loutishness in public places...I think you get my drift.

It's quite simply that in most places only nutters buy guns - in the US... In the end it's how many people there are compared to how many people get killed - we both know that if there were a lot less guns there would be a lot less deaths. It's just that, like hunting here in the UK, certain things become part of the culture andhave a strong lobby that makes them extremely difficult to legislate against - and of course your economy needs the money from arms sales...

I have no problem with responsible gun ownership. Hell, it goes back to the beginning, we have the right to own guns because of you folks. Hell, we had to kick your ass twice just to make the point. We are the most armed country on the planet, thanks to Great Britain. Blame yourself, not us. Now you want us to give them up....I think not! Next, you'd want us eating digestive biscuits. (lets see who that pisses off)

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nobody attacks digestive biscuits and lives! You're lucky you're 3,000 miles away and I don't own a gun.

I don't take it personal Mender. I'm educated and I look at the facts. I am capable of critical thinking and don't necessairly believe everything I hear repeated over and over and over by those less critical and observant and prone to spouting dogma. It's not a question of culture, it's a question of facts.

I was with you Radio... until you attacked digestive biscuits. I fear you have gone too far this time.

Only 3000 miles eah....Better look at your map, you got a little more walking to do.

bloody right he has!

Actually, the digestive biscuits have found their way over, but the grocery doesn't know what they are and puts them next to the dog biscuits. The dogs won't eat them btw...just spit the things out on the ground and look at you with a confused twisted head thing.

Seriously though Radio your defence of US gun culture by citing Finland is a joke. You've picked one of the only countries in Europe - and a small one at that population-wise - with a worse record than the States. Finland is not Europe. If you look at the stats for the UK, France, Germany, Italy, you'll find you guys are way ahead of us in the gun death ratio league.

I contend that the Unites States is the safest society on this planet with guns. I used Finland because well...that's a gun prone society and it is in Europe and I don't know anything else about the place. A gun sitting on a table in Finland is 16 times more likely to be used to kill somebody in Finland than a gun sitting on a table in the United States. I'm not about to do the math for the rest of the world, my CIA factbook is at home and I don't really give a shit. The culture in the US is one of safety, not killing. Most gun owners, 99.9% are decent, safe, respectable people that understand the responsibilities of gun ownership. If there were no guns and everybody had garden rakes, the world would be screaming about garden rake murders instead.

So would the world be a safer place, If everyone... and I meant everyone (ok. over a certain age) was forced to carry a Nuclear button which could decimate all of humankind with one press. No one would upset anyone, I'd betcha. This forum might even emulate the UKA one...

No....don't think so. There's that .001 percent to worry about. We had a television show on years ago in the 70's called "All in the Family." Archie Bunker, the lead character, a bigoted blue collar New Yorker had a solution to plane hijackings....When everybody got on the plane, hand them a pistol. Nobody in their right mind would hijack a plane full of idiots carrying pistols.

I can see the headline now "Jack The Raker Rakes Again!" It would be fairly difficult to have a rake massacre in a school or some such which you chaps over the pond seem so prone to from time to time.

As for your number of guns arguement, Denver. According to your logic if eveyone in the USA had 100 guns each then they would ne 95% less dangerous - allowing for two-handed shooters.

Yes the .001 percent worry me too. You see in the future it will be too easy for anyone determined enough to cause terrific devastation if that is what they wanted to do... guns pah, mere toys!

Praise The Lord and pass the rockets. Put those mortars in your pockets. It it moves or disagrees This will kill it if you please. Shoot then till you've got their oil. Shoot some more it's no damn toil. You can get what you request - if your fire-power is the best!

We have a thousand points of light for the homeless man, we have a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand....that's my motto. *winks at Neil*

Only America could use bikini clad models to advertise machine guns, Denver, but I'm still not sure they have gentler hands. Still since you are winking at Neil it might be a different type of weapon - probably single shot - you are thinking of.

Neil Young...not the Auditor....he'd probably wink back.

Hahahaha

I'm not happy with the word 'request' in my poem - should have used 'demand'... still, I'm bone idle so it will do.

how about... You can get what you take... but don't use a garden rake.

You can get what you can take. Grab it with a garden rake. But if it wears a towel then it's a shiek. So don't rake him for heaven's sake.

I think someone already wrote the rake's progress didn't they Denver?

I think if I don't shut up, I'll be raked over the coals...

I wandered lonely as a rake. Past hill and dale and deepest lake When all at once I saw a cake. And in my greed I did forsake. My journey for a cadbury's Flake. So in golden crumbs I will partake And halt the progress of this rake.

Sorry Denver I'm just in one of those loony moods.

Hey Denver, that All In The Family show you mentioned was an import from Britain, an Americanized version of our Till Death Us Do Part sitcom which featured a mildly racist right wing bigot called Alf Garnet.