The Jim King Show. Paige Doherty – Murdered by a Monster Hiding in Plain Sight – a Mother’s Story with Pamela Doherty.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZw0bW4Pvzw

Pamela Doherty had a baby when she was sixteen. The kind of mother Prime Minister David Cameron warned us about. The kind of mother that was fodder for The Jeremy Kyle Show  and for the Tory boo-boys. Ironically, this was the kind of crap loved by the working class as just a bit of harmless fun.

Most of us remember Paige Doherty going missing, because she was one of us. We know the shop she was killed in. We know Whitecrook. We know the path beside the boulevard that runs parallel with The World of Golf and the five-a-side parks next to it where her body was found.

What happened in 2016 made her mum a modern-day heroine, but the price was too high. Nobody wants fame at that price.

But here’s the rub. Then you start getting the modern-day snipers and Jeremy Kylers telling us Pamela Doherty is at it, what’s she done with all that money she made?  

We’re in 2026. But the mentality can be gleaned from Robert Tressell/Noonan’s The Ragged Trouser Philanthropist.  We never ask tax dodgers who make a living from stealing from the state, such as David Cameron’s dad and his Etonian friends, including Nigel Farage, who was handed £5 million by an admirer.  I’ll not even mention Trump.

Pamela Doherty was an ordinary wee woman. Call it fate. Call it whatever you like. Her wee daughter met an evil bastard—and didn’t live to tell the tale. That’s tragic.  

Notes.

What happened in March 2016?

She was like my best friend. I was 16 when I had Paige. It was just me and her. She was dead helpful. Then when she was older, she helped with her siblings. Our neighbours said she was a credit to you. She wasn’t the type that hung about the streets drinking.

She had her head screwed on. Don’t get me wrong. She had her moments. She wasn’t an angel but she didn’t give me any grief or anything. She was just an all round good wee girl.

What was she like in school?

Aye, she’d lots of friends. But she kept her friends’ groups small. A few friends. They were always in and out of my house or she was in and out of theirs. Part of the furniture and vice versa. Whether they stayed at ours or she stayed at theirs…And she went to dancing, which was a huge part of her life. And her wee best friend, Robin. And Robin is still like my wee sidekick. She’s still bringing me like Mother’s day cards. And she’s at the grave, constantly.

Was Paige street-wise?

In a sense, but no. She was wide. But no street-wise. Maybe the way I was. Or like when we were younger. Cause she didnae hang around the streets. So she was naïve with a lot of friends and stuff. She said to me once, ‘Everybody was drinking the night. And I didn’t want to. So I just pretended. I took a sip and passed it around and they were all drunk. They thought I was. So I just kidded on.’

So she was wise that way. But fighting and stuff, she was never involved in anything like that. No. And she trusted everybody.

I know. A bit like myself, growing up. I was very tiny. And I know Paige was the same. I know you said, she was aged 15, but had age 9, clothes.

Yep.

And that’s very unique. Cause I never thought I was going to grow. Thank God I grew up now. But what was that like?

She was just always…I can remember when she was born. And my sisters were in the labour room with me and they said to me, ‘Oh, she’s so small. I’ve never seen a baby so small’. And she was. But she was full term. Four days late. She was just wee made. But my mum’s tiny. My mum was no even five foot. I’m five three, so…she was just wee made. In hospital people used to say like ‘we need to test her for this. We need to test her for that.’  At one point they were testing for dwarfism. And there was absolutely nothing. They kept saying she can’t be this small. There must be something going on. But she was just wee.

It’s mad. Cause when I have seen photos of her. She does look so wee. But as you said. Such a character. But we’ll go into the story now.

March 2016.

When we spoke about it, you said, you know, these things normally happen in the dark or late at night. But this happened in the middle of the day. Or in the morning. There were loads of people around. It seemed like a very safe. Familiar place. And it happened in a deli. And you also knew the killer, yourself. And so if you can take me into that day, then?

I know with CCTV you see Paige going into the Deli. But she never actually comes back out.

Yep.

And did you say she mostly went to that Deli every morning before work?

Uhhu. We all went. I went every day as well, when I dropped the kids as nursery and it was just…I mean, I didnae know the guy’s name. But I knew of him. Because we always chatted when we were in. Paige always chatted to him. So…he was just normal looking. Obviously he isnae normal. But you wouldnae of thought he was capable of what he done.

You’d never think there was such a monster hiding in plain sight?

No.

And that’s going to happen to you? You hear about these things happening in other countries. Or down south.

Something you see on TV and you think…Oh, my god.

When did you first realise she was missing?

So…Paige went to stay with a friend the night before. And then got up from their and went to work. And I hadn’t heard from her. But I thought she’s just forgot her charger. Cos, normally, I’d hear from her on her break. Or something. And later on. A friend had phoned my friend. Lauren had phoned and said, like ‘Have you heard from Paige?’

And I said ‘No, but I’m sure her battery’s deid. Cuz her phone’s cut out.’ I tried to phone her.

But she said, ‘No, Like, Cause she’s left her charger at min. Cuz that’s the friend she stayed with. And she said that she left her charger at my house’.

But then her boyfriend—who I hadn’t met at the time—her boyfriend Dylan had been really worried. And kept phoning Lauren. And then he phoned me. And he’s like.

‘No, she’s no been in contact wae me. She’s no came to mine after work. She always comes to mine on the way home.’

So, I was kinda like, that doesnae seem right. I’m gonnae contact her work. She worked in a hairdressers that my cousin’s wife worked in. And I went to school with the owner’s husband. So I messaged him right away. ‘I’m trying to get a hold of Paige? Was she at work, today?’  

He said ‘No, we’ve been trying to get hold of you. She’s no came to her work.’

So right away, I phoned the police. Cause I said, ‘That’s no like her. It’s no…She’s no the type to let people doon’.

I phoned the police right away. But they were kinda like, ‘She’ll show up’.

They don’t take it serious at first.

So did you have to sleep on it that night, before…?

Uhhu.

Before they started taking it serious? Started doing an investigation? A search?

Longer than that really. But so…she wasn’t in contact. So I said to everybody, so I phone my sisters and said, ‘It’s no like her. I don’t know why she’s no came hame. I don’t know why her phone’s off.’

And they said. ‘Och, she’s probably just went to a party.’

And I says, ‘No first thing in the morning.’

And the police said to me. ‘She might have ran away.’

I said, ‘She’s no reason to run away. If she was going to. Surely, she’d have went to her work and got her pay.’   

Who found the body? Do do you know?

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I don't know. It was somebody I I'm sure they were out running.

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Um, and I did say to the police at the time, I want to thank him, but the police had said that he was really,

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really traumatized and that he didn't want to be contacted. So, I respected that. I knew it must have been a lot for him.

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Where was she found? next to World of Golf and a it's like a we path that goes up and there's a we kind of grassy bit. Um and

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she was there with kind of trees and branches and stuff pulled over her.

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There's there's still footage of him um putting stuff in his car.

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There's CCTV him carrying her body out and black bags and putting it in the boot. He was walking that way, but Paige's foot was hanging out the bag and

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you can see it in the CCTV, but the person walking that way wouldn't have seen it because he was walking that way.

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And she bought a row at 8:21 cuz that was where our last robot was 8:21 and that's when she went in the CCTV and the shutters were done by half past.

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How horrific was our injuries?

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So, she had 63 on her face slash wounds on her face and

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she had 85 stab wounds to her head. And on top of that, she had a big hole in

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her neck that they can't count. So it's estimated maybe she's been stabbed maybe about 500 times. It was stabbed that many times. It was uncountable.

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The woman herself, Pamela Dockerty, welcome to the show. Thank you. It's great to have you in the studio,

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Pamela. A very tragic story. Your daughter Paige was brutally murdered back in 2016.

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But before we go right into this story,

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if you can speak me through what's going on in the now in the present.

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So right now we're doing a lot of charity work with Pages Charity Pages Promise. It was kind of quiet through co

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and just other stuff going on in the background. So we're now kind of rebuilding that. We just had our 10 year anniversary ball which was good and we

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are hoping to put together a self-defense seminar involve the police and involve hopefully the violence

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reduction team and get families that have been affected by violence speaking have we workshops with different types

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of self-defense and hopefully have a big event put together for that.

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That's great to hear. Take me into the a we bit about the ball. We'll get into that later on in the episode, but I know you had some celebrities that are also friends there, like football ex-

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football players and stuff.

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Yeah. Well, so Robert Douglas, the old Celtic goalie, he always supports him and his wife Debbie. Um, Paige's events.

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They've been really, really good. Gave me some wise words sometimes and they brought along some friends. So, I think everybody at the ball was pleased that

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they were there and they brought John Hartson and their wife, but they were just like normal people at the ball.

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They were like I keep reminding people they're just people. They're like don't annoy them all night but everybody's like can I get a picture? Can I get a picture? But no, it was nice to have

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them there and they did make a real effort on the night.

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That's great. And like I said, um I'll try and not get too emotional myself through the story. I know you're a very strong woman. Uh any time that I have

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spent with you, as I say, it's very it's very powerful to come back so strong after what happened to Paige. But we'll

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go into the story now. But before we go right into that day, what happened back in March 2016, if you can tell me a we

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bit about Paige, what she was like as a character, as a kid growing up.

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She was she was like my best friend obviously first and foremost, but I had her really young. I was 16 when I had Paige, so we kind of grew up together.

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Um, she was like, it was just me and her. It was always just me and her. and she was always dead helpful. Like we

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done everything where we were doing housework together, we're going into town together. Like then as she a we bit older, she'd help her siblings and like

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for a young age cuz I had obviously her brother. Um let's when she was six and right away she was into we kind of mommy mode. Um she was always dead bubbly, she

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was dead helpful, always helped the neighbors. Everybody always kept saying what a character she is. Like how did

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you like she's a credit to you? And then as she got older, she was just she wasn't the type that hung about the streets and drinking and she just had

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her head screwed on. She was don't she had her moments where she'd argue with me and stuff like that as well. Don't get me wrong, she wasn't an angel, but um she didn't give me any grief or

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anything. She was she was she was just an all round good we girl. What was she like in school?

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Ah, she had loads of we friends and that but she kept her friend group small. Um in school she had just a few friends. um

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that were always in and out my house or she was in and out theirs like they were part of the furniture and mine and vice versa whether they stayed at mine at the

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weekend or she stayed at theirs. And then she obviously went to dancing.

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Dancing was a huge part of her life and she had her our we best friend Robin. Um and Robin's just still like my we sidekick. Like she's there all the time.

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She's always bringing me like Mother's Day cards and she's at the grave constantly. She's always anything for me she's like it's like another family me.

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It's like I've still got part of Paige cuz she makes sure that she keeps that part alive.

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Was Paige street wise would you say in a sense? But no, she was wide like

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but no street wise maybe the way I was or like when we were younger because she didn't hang about the streets. So she was naive with a lot of friends and

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stuff but she was to like I remember when she said to me once everybody was drinking the night and I didn't want to drink. So I just pretended I took a sip and I passed it around by the point that

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they were all drunk. They they thought I was. So I just kided on. So she was wise that way, but like fighting and stuff like that, she was never involved in

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anything like that or No. And she trusted everybody.

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I know a bit like myself. Um growing up I was very tiny and I know Paige was the same. Mhm.

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I'm sure you said I know she was age 15 that she had like age nine clothes.

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Yep. That's uh very unique because I never thought I was going to grow when I got to that age. I still was very tiny as well.

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Thank god I've grew up now. But what was that like?

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She was just always I can remember when she was born and my sisters were in the labor room with me and they said to me,

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"Oh my god, she's so small. I've never seen a baby so small." And she was absolutely tiny. But I mean she was full term. She was 4 days late. So like she

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was just we made but my mom's tiny. Like my mom was not even 5 foot and I'm 53.

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So she was she was just we made the hospital when she was younger used to say like oh we need to test her for this we need to test her for that. I think

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one one point they were testing for dwarfism and like there was absolutely nothing going on. They kept saying there's got to be she got to be this small

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but she was just we it's it's mad because when I have seen photos of her she does she looks so we

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and but again as you said such a character. Mhm. But we'll go into the story now.

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Um, so we're going back to March 2016. Is that correct? Yep. And when we spoke about it, you said,

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you know, these things normally happen when it's like in the dark or late at night, but this happened in the middle

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of the day or in the morning. There was loads of people around. It seemed like a very safe, familiar place.

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And it happened in a deli. And you also knew the the killer yourself. And so if

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you can take me into that day then. Um cuz I know with the CCTV you actually see Paige getting into the the deli but she never actually comes back out.

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Yep.

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And did you say she she mostly went to that deli every morning before work?

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Uhhuh. Uh, we all went I went every day as well when I dropped kids at nursery and it was just I mean I didn't know the guy's name but I knew of him because we

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were in and we always chatted when we were in Paige always chatted to him. So he was just normal looking. Obviously he

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isn't normal but you would never thought he was capable of what he done.

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You would never think that there's such a monster hiding in plain sight. No.

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And that's going to happen to you. You hear about these things in other countries or down south,

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something you see in the TV and you think, "Oh my god, it's never going to happen to you."

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When did you first um realized that she was missing?

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So Paige went to stay with a friend the night before and um then got up for there and went to work.

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And I hadn't heard for her, but I just thought she's forgot her charger cuz normally I'd hear for her on her break

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or something. And then later on her friend had phoned my friend Lauren had phoned and says like, "Have you heard from Paige?" And I was like, "No, but

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I'm sure she's her battery's dead cuz her phone's cut. I've tried to phone her and she had said no.

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Like she's left her charger at mine cuz that's a friend she said. She said she left her charger at my house and so that probably is it." But then her boyfriend who I hadn't met at the time, her

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boyfriend Dylan had been really worried and he kept phoning Lauren. So then he phoned me and he's like, "No, she's not been in contact me. She no came to minds

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after work. She always comes to minds in the way home."

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So I was kind of like, "Right, that's that doesn't seem right. Um, I'm going to contact her work." Uh, cuz she worked

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in a hairdressers that my cousin's wife worked in. And I went to school with the owner's husband. So I messaged him right

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away and I says look I'm trying to get a hold of Paige was she at work the day and he says no we've been trying to get a hold of you. She's no came to work. So right away I just phoned the police cuz

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I was like that's not like her. It's no she's no type to let people down. Um so I I just phoned the police right away

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but they were kind of like oh she'll show up like it's they don't take it serious at first.

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So did you have to sleep on it that night? Uhhuh.

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Before they started taking it serious like doing an investigation or the search? longer than that night really.

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But so she obviously wasn't in contact and I said to everybody I'd phone my sisters and

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stuff and I'd say to them, "Look, it's no like her. I don't know why she's no come home. I don't know why her phone's off." Um and they says, "Oh, she's probably just went to a party." And I says, "No, first thing in the morning,

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like she would or the police said to me, would she might run away?" And I says,

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"She's no reason to run away, but if she was going to, she surely should have went to work and got her pay. she gets paid on a Saturday. I said, "It just doesn't add up. I'm telling you." So, by

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the Saturday night, I said she wouldn't know contact me. Even if she was in a bad mood with me, which we didn't have an argument or anything. So, she

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wouldn't be in a bad mood. But even if she was in a bad mood with me, she would still phone and say, "I'm at my grand or I'm here." She wouldn't get let me get

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through midnight and go to my bed without knowing where she was. She wouldn't let her granny Cassie. She wouldn't let her go to sleep

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worried kind of thing. So, um, right away I was like, "Something happened."

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And everybody told me, "You're imagining it." I said, "I know, Paige. Something's happened." How long did it take until they actually started to get the search

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party and really start to make an effort in the investigation?

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They didn't. So, the Sunday, like by the Sunday, we had posters and all that up like across the internet. The police

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kind of just said to her, "Just keep sharing her picture." Um, and eventually like like she'll be in contact because she's all over the internet. And her

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picture went like massive. Like everybody was talking about the missing poster. Um, and loads of people were contacting saying that we're going to

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try here, we go try there. We were at search and a few people said they'd seen her. Um, somebody was adamant they seen

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her at Sanger Train Station in Clay Bank. So we of headed up that way. We automatically went up that way. Um, we were driving about in the kind of

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industrial estate up there, checked the train station and then the police said there was CCTV and page in the shopping

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center and I was to go down and check it. So I went to the shopping center CCTV

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and it was through the back and it was a girl. She was wearing the same jacket um as Paige but it wasn't her and I knew

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the same dark hair and I was like that's not her trousers, that's not her shoes.

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And they kept saying, "But it might be she borrowed her friends." And I'm like,

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"No, there's no chance of that because she wore nine year old clothes. She was like a size one shoe. Like there's none of your pals are that size that could possibly lend her anything." I says,

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"It's no her. It's no her hair. It's hair's too long." So then there was CCTV Singer Train Station. So I had to go to

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the police station to view that. So we all headed up there and right away I was like, "That's no page." And again, it

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was for the back. But somebody passed her in a bite and said hia. So that young boy genuinely thought it was Paige and he came up to the police station and he's like I say hi and she say ha back.

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So I was like so where did she go on?

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But it wasn't her. I says that doesn't run like her like that she was running for the train and I says that's not her bag. That's her jacket. It's dark hair.

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I says but she doesn't run like that. I know a mom knows the kids mannerisms.

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They like you just know them. And I just knew it wasn't hard and the police kept saying have another look. And it was one I can't remember the police woman's name. She had red hair and I can

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remember her saying, "No, you're our mom. We'll just end this." So they're like, "We're going to need to just kind of leave it, you know, until we take it

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to the next stage." Um and and that was basically it. That was the Sunday night.

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That So that was the Sunday kind of about 5:00. So we obviously kept going out looking.

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We were all searching the full Clyde Bank. Um, and I phoned the police, I think, at 11 o'clock that night. And he says the bus driver from the bus that

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she gets on, said that she got on that bus. So, I was to go my beds, um, and she'll probably come home tomorrow. Um,

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nine times out of 10, they come home.

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The search party, I know the killer was part of that search party as well. Yep. And also,

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you ventured into the deli.

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Yep. on the Sunday I had went in somebody said I think it was a we friend's mom said she had been in the daily and he' said she'd been in there that morning and left to go for a bus as

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usual. So right away I was like right I'll head her in there and speak to him but no thinking he'll know where she is.

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I just thought I need to know what he knows. So I went around but he wasn't in but the shop woman phoned him on his phone

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and he came on the phone and looking back now I could I should have probably thought why is he pretending he doesn't know who she is because he knew he knew

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who Paige was cuz he he used to comment and how she used to go to work every morning and obviously he's got a we girl with the same name and used to say well she wouldn't get up her bed and do that.

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Um so he did know who she was. He knew her by her name. So, um, and we had a baby. I had a baby the same image as his

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baby. And obviously when I was in and out the daily, I had the prime and so did his wife. What was his name? John Le.

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So, the member of staff phoned him and put him on the phone to you. Uhhuh. And what was the conversation? So, he had said to me that she came in,

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she bought a roll and then left again.

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She was going for the bus to go to work and she came in at the normal time. Um she didn't go in at the normal time anyway. She was there 10 minutes earlier

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or something. But um then he said to me, "I just stay there in the corner if you want to come." Um

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and I'm like, "Come where?" And he's like, "My house. If you want to come and I'll I'll sit down and talk to you about it and kind of work out if we can help."

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And I was like, "No, you're all right. I don't need to." And I was like, "I didn't even know where he stayed anyway." But it turned out he stayed in the next street. But um when I said to

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the police and the police say you know why he wanted you to go around and I said no like I think he was obviously just trying to steer me away for think

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it was him. went. No, I think he thought you were starting to realize it was him and had you went run there, he was maybe

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going to try and do the same to you, but I'm no Paige, so it wouldn't have been as as simple as that kind of I would

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have went myself like I'd had my husband with me at the time and I didn't go around anyway. I didn't see the need to go around to somebody's house that had

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16 minutes, 53 seconds

seen her kind of thing. So it's just when you left there, how long until

17:02

17 minutes, 2 seconds

I'm sure you were in the house and it come over the radio. That was the next day.

17:06

17 minutes, 6 seconds

The next day So I went to my bed that night on the Sunday night like the police had said never slept, but I obviously went to bed and tried to get a few hours sleep and

17:14

17 minutes, 14 seconds

we were like, we'll start again tomorrow. We as a family we all spoke, we got up early, we'll go and try here,

17:18

17 minutes, 18 seconds

we going to try there. But the police were coming at 11:00 because they did say in the morning they said they're going to step it up and make it high risk because it had been over 48 hours.

17:30

17 minutes, 30 seconds

Um, and they said the first thing is to come and search my house because that's that's just protocol. We're missing person. The first thing to do is come

17:37

17 minutes, 37 seconds

and search your house. They say take a statement for myself and take one for my husband. So the police came to my house.

17:43

17 minutes, 43 seconds

I think it must have been 10 11:00. Um,

17:48

17 minutes, 48 seconds

and I went up the stairs to Paige's room with one of the policemen and my husband stayed down the stairs with one of the

17:55

17 minutes, 55 seconds

policemen and they started giving a statement. Um, and then they says, "We'll take the

18:03

18 minutes, 3 seconds

statement basically and then we're going to search the place." So,

18:08

18 minutes, 8 seconds

it wasn't even halfway through taking the statement. The radios went off, but the radio and my policeman upstairs, he turned it off. So, I never heard

18:16

18 minutes, 16 seconds

anything. Ed said to me, "Oh, we have to stop this interview." Um, I don't know why. We'll come back to it. And then I

18:24

18 minutes, 24 seconds

had my my phone r my husband had to text up to me and says, "There's a body being found, but it's a 20-year-old, so it's no page, so don't panic." He heard it on

18:32

18 minutes, 32 seconds

the other policeman's radio cuz he walked out obviously, so he was meant to hear it and it was accidental, but um so he text me. So, I'm sitting with him

18:41

18 minutes, 41 seconds

going, we're going to need to tell everybody to come out here kind of thing. So, I started messaging my family and that saying there's a body being found. You need to get out here. Um, and

18:49

18 minutes, 49 seconds

people started kind of showing up. The police didn't know what was going on.

18:52

18 minutes, 52 seconds

They didn't have a clue. Um, and I did feel sorry for them cuz they were standing there not knowing what to tell us. And then her phone started going and

19:00

19 minutes

it was I think it was my sister-in-law I answered it to. Um, and she was kind of crying. She was like, I'm in Great Western Road and there's a body being

19:08

19 minutes, 8 seconds

found. And I think by this point the tents and stuff were up and she's like you could hear somebody screaming in the background. That's my niece. Um but I

19:16

19 minutes, 16 seconds

just said like just come at the house like don't draw attention to just get to the house and we'll discuss it when you get here. So everybody headed to mine.

19:23

19 minutes, 23 seconds

So I don't think I've ever seen my house so full. Who found the body? Do do you know?

19:27

19 minutes, 27 seconds

I don't know. It was somebody I'm sure they were out running. Um, and I did say to the police at the time I went to thank him, but the police had said that

19:35

19 minutes, 35 seconds

he was really, really traumatized and that he didn't want to be contacted. So,

19:38

19 minutes, 38 seconds

I respected that. Like, I knew it must have been a lot for him. Where was she found? Next to World of Golf and uh,

19:46

19 minutes, 46 seconds

it's like a we path that goes up and there's a we kind of grassy bit. Um, and she was there with kind of trees and branches and stuff pulled over her, but

19:55

19 minutes, 55 seconds

you could see her from the fence on Great Western Road.

19:59

19 minutes, 59 seconds

How long did it take until you had to go and identify her to confirm it was Paige?

20:05

20 minutes, 5 seconds

So that was the Monday and the Monday was a long long day. On the Monday we all the family was around and then the

20:13

20 minutes, 13 seconds

police were there and then they handed it over to the C. The C down and he says we have to

20:20

20 minutes, 20 seconds

stay with you. There's a couple of people missing. So there was just Paige missing and apparently there was two

20:27

20 minutes, 27 seconds

brunettes and a blonde missing. Um and then one of the brunette showed up. So he say so it's just a blonde and a

20:34

20 minutes, 34 seconds

brunette missing now. Paige was a brunette. Um so he stayed and he's like he did take

20:42

20 minutes, 42 seconds

me aside and he said to me look if the the blonde shows up I'll let you know. He says I'm not meant to but I'll

20:49

20 minutes, 49 seconds

let you know. Um because we kept saying if if the blonde shows up, we know it's Paige kind of thing. But he did reassure that. He did try and reassure me. He did

20:57

20 minutes, 57 seconds

say it doesn't mean it's her because there's missing people. If you're all over the place, it could be dumped anywhere. Don't automatically think it's it's going to be Paige kind of thing.

21:07

21 minutes, 7 seconds

But it did say if the major investigation team come here tonight and ask you to identify the body, they're

21:14

21 minutes, 14 seconds

they're probably almost 100% as her. So just know that. He says, um, and prepare yourself for that. I think it was about 10:00 at night, he did say to me that blondes showed up. Um, he says, "So,

21:27

21 minutes, 27 seconds

there's just a brunette to be found now." So, I I was kind of didn't tell my family because I didn't want to worry them, but I knew myself. So, I was kind of like, "Right, so I need to prepare

21:35

21 minutes, 35 seconds

myself for this being Paige." And then I guess about maybe half 10, the major investigation team came in and took me up the stairs and offered me Valium.

21:46

21 minutes, 46 seconds

That was the kind of first thing she said like first things first you want to value him. Um, and I was like, "No, I don't. I need to be compliment for my kids." And um,

21:57

21 minutes, 57 seconds

she said, "You'll be identifying a body tomorrow." And it was half past 1 it was meant to be at. And I was like, "Well,

22:02

22 minutes, 2 seconds

can you know just take me? I'll just go down the no touch." I know. It's a crime scene. We can't let you. Um, but I was

22:09

22 minutes, 9 seconds

like, "But I'll just look. I'll be able to tell you. I'll just look. Just let me I can't let her be overnight without us knowing if it's half the is terrible.

22:18

22 minutes, 18 seconds

We've been waiting since like 12:00 the day. Um, but obviously it's a crime scene. I know now like at the time I know I was being ridiculous, but I was begging them for it to take me in there,

22:27

22 minutes, 27 seconds

but next morning she did come phone me early and she's like, "You ready?" And I was like, "Ah." And she's like, "I've got

22:35

22 minutes, 35 seconds

you in at half 9." So it was half 9 on the Tuesday morning that I got to identify her.

22:42

22 minutes, 42 seconds

And it must have been traumatic for yourself. Did you get down with the family? So, I was only allowed my husband in with me, but the my sisters

22:50

22 minutes, 50 seconds

and that came um my brothersin-law, they came from both sides. Um and

23:01

23 minutes, 1 second

basically we went in and it was a screen like so it's basically a screen that looks down on her. Um and she just

23:10

23 minutes, 10 seconds

looked sleeping. She didn't look like she did they tilted her head so I couldn't see any wounds so I wouldn't

23:17

23 minutes, 17 seconds

even have known. Um she had her hair swept back and obviously my husband had walked in behind me so he was like he knew as well

23:26

23 minutes, 26 seconds

but so I had to obviously say yep that's her. Um and I I can remember just my sisters

23:34

23 minutes, 34 seconds

coming in and me trying to reassure them and tell them everything's going to be all right. And I was just making sure everybody was all right. Basically, because I knew that it

23:42

23 minutes, 42 seconds

was going to hit them really, really hard. Obviously, I'm their mom, so if I'm going to break down, it's going to kill them off. So, I knew that I had to keep myself together because I if I

23:51

23 minutes, 51 seconds

couldn't keep them together, then I had no chance of making sure my kids were going to be all right kind of thing. So,

23:56

23 minutes, 56 seconds

I knew that I had to I was looking around me think this cannot be happening. This really cannot be happening. Like, everybody is broken.

24:04

24 minutes, 4 seconds

There's people like lying in the ground in the merchy and uh it was it was quite surreal.

24:10

24 minutes, 10 seconds

So see after that how long did it take them with tracking the killer?

24:18

24 minutes, 18 seconds

They were really quick. I'll give them like honestly the the people that worked on the case they were absolutely amazing. Um one Morin Shark and Sha

24:26

24 minutes, 26 seconds

Beard they were like glued to me and at first when they came in I was like I'm not going to like these. like they were dead tornf faced I thought and I told

24:35

24 minutes, 35 seconds

him that anyway so I can say that but I was like oh my god they're dead they strict looking this is going to be horrific but no they were amazing

24:44

24 minutes, 44 seconds

absolutely amazing like the next it was a weddings day so I identified them on the Tuesday and they were just going about doing things but they

24:52

24 minutes, 52 seconds

weren't obviously telling us they weren't saying to us we've got a lead on this or we think this or that they were just going doing their job um and checking in they just kept they knew we

25:00

25 minutes

had loads of family in and they did say theirelves they says look we are your leazison officers but you don't need us right now like and I kept saying no just

25:09

25 minutes, 9 seconds

you just need to find who done this you deal with that we're fine here um and it was a Wednesday night

25:16

25 minutes, 16 seconds

um I think about 8:00 my phone went and it was Morin my leazison officer and she says is everybody in your house that

25:24

25 minutes, 24 seconds

needs to be in your house and I says for what she went everybody important and I says uhhuh I says I I says a couple of

25:32

25 minutes, 32 seconds

people around the corner. I need to get around but she says get them in the now and then she turned up at my she door.

25:39

25 minutes, 39 seconds

She came in she locked my door and she went nobody leaves here. She says that door hasn't got open and we were kind of like what what's going on. Um and she

25:47

25 minutes, 47 seconds

says we're in the process of detaining a 31year-old man. And I always remember that was her exact words looking directly at me and she says and you know

25:56

25 minutes, 56 seconds

who it is Pamela. And I'm like right away I'm like she locked the doors and I'm like there's somebody in this house.

26:02

26 minutes, 2 seconds

So I'm looking at all the men in the house and I thought I'm accusing all these people with my eyes but I was like no it's it can't possibly be and she's like you know who it is. And I said to

26:10

26 minutes, 10 seconds

her I says is somebody in here and right away she's like no no she went sorry I should have said that. She says it's nobody in here. She says um but we are in the process. She says I can't tell

26:18

26 minutes, 18 seconds

you who it is. And she says but what I will say is retrace Paige's steps. And we were all sitting retracing our steps

26:26

26 minutes, 26 seconds

and um thinking she's like where did Paige last go? And I'm like the roll shop. And she's like so where was the last place she went? And I said the roll

26:34

26 minutes, 34 seconds

shop. And right away I went oh my god the guy in the roll shop. And she just says I can't confirm or deny.

26:42

26 minutes, 42 seconds

But that was basically she was telling you without telling you.

26:46

26 minutes, 46 seconds

I and then the phone started going again. Everybody's phone started ringing because obviously

26:54

26 minutes, 54 seconds

it was around the corner. The guy was getting arrested at his house around the corner in the next street. So everybody my everybody in Clay Bank knows my

27:01

27 minutes, 1 second

husband's family. So they were all in my house. So their phones were all going and that's when they were saying it was him. It was him. He's getting arrested.

27:07

27 minutes, 7 seconds

So he got arrested right away like cuz everybody's I mean I had just done this and you're like no the police were there. I think he was out walking his

27:16

27 minutes, 16 seconds

dog and he was walking up and the police got him walking up and they arrested him in the street and they said to me,

27:22

27 minutes, 22 seconds

"Pamela, it's a circus. An absolute circus out there. The streets are lined like the whole neighborhood was out.

27:28

27 minutes, 28 seconds

Like I've got a geek clay banker drew that way. It's a different community all together. Like I think if it happened somewhere else, the community wouldn't

27:35

27 minutes, 35 seconds

have been the same with the whole for the missing and afterwards. And I I I I didn't believe until I seen videos that

27:44

27 minutes, 44 seconds

night like how crazy it was. Like I couldn't My friend was coming to get my I had my baby Lucas. He was only 3 months old and my friend was trying to

27:53

27 minutes, 53 seconds

get in and she couldn't get in. The police wouldn't let her in. She's like,

27:55

27 minutes, 55 seconds

"I'm friends with Pamela." And they're like, "Oh, Pamela's away at a safe house." But they mixed me up with John Leaf's wife. And I had to, it was a

28:02

28 minutes, 2 seconds

whole rigma roll to get my pal through the crowds and get her back at the crowd kind of thing because it was so it was like the whole white creek was shut in.

28:12

28 minutes, 12 seconds

See, when they they were tracking them,

28:14

28 minutes, 14 seconds

so obviously they looked at the CCTV and you can see Paige walking and getting into the deli and obviously

28:22

28 minutes, 22 seconds

not coming back out. And then the other CCTV, I'm sure he erased the stuff in the shop. Mhm.

28:28

28 minutes, 28 seconds

But there's there's still footage of him um putting stuff in his car cleaning

28:35

28 minutes, 35 seconds

maybe around about the the store. But when that when Paiges went in and it was

28:44

28 minutes, 44 seconds

how long was it until the shutters went down that morning? So Paige went in and the shutters were done was she bought a row at 8:21 cuz that was where the last

28:52

28 minutes, 52 seconds

roll bought was 8:21 and that's when she went in the CCTV and the shutters were done by half past. And he claims he

29:00

29 minutes

killed her in the 10 minutes before he put the shutters down which is impossible like absolutely impossible.

29:05

29 minutes, 5 seconds

He couldn't have done that damage in 10 minutes and the police saved the it never happened in the 10 minutes. He shut the shutters and then killed her.

29:12

29 minutes, 12 seconds

But the shutters were reopened within an hour. like he had I've seen the full

29:17

29 minutes, 17 seconds

CCTV obviously and for court and he there's CCTV him carrying her body

29:26

29 minutes, 26 seconds

out and black bags and putting it in the boot his car like in broad daylight I banged into somebody like somebody was

29:34

29 minutes, 34 seconds

walking he was walking one way and he was walking that way but Paige's foot was hanging out the bag and you can see in the CCTV but the person walking that

29:41

29 minutes, 41 seconds

way wouldn't have seen it because he was walking that Um and um

29:50

29 minutes, 50 seconds

I you you see him putting the the body in the bag. You can see a we foot in the CCTV. That footage is no longer available.

29:57

29 minutes, 57 seconds

It's the other stuff that's made public.

29:59

29 minutes, 59 seconds

It was shown in court. It accidentally get leaked and it came right off. Um I

30:06

30 minutes, 6 seconds

think it should be shown just to show how calculated it was. Like I mean he just didn't have a care in the world. He carried it out like a sack of potatoes.

30:16

30 minutes, 16 seconds

Like it didn't look like a body. And I understand like how people didn't actually realize it was a body.

30:23

30 minutes, 23 seconds

Like everybody's like how did that boy know that was a body? And I'm like I don't even it's not his fault. Like he was just walking to the shop. You don't

30:31

30 minutes, 31 seconds

walk to shop and think oh wait a minute that black bag's a body. Like that's just not something you think. So um how um how horrific was our injuries?

30:41

30 minutes, 41 seconds

Like they were bad. She um so she had 63

30:50

30 minutes, 50 seconds

on her face slash wounds on her face and she had 85 stab wounds to her head all

30:58

30 minutes, 58 seconds

at the left hand side. And on top of that she had a big hole in her neck that they can't count. So, it's estimated

31:06

31 minutes, 6 seconds

maybe she's been stabbed maybe about 500 times. But, and it annoys me because the papers print 146 because they can only

31:13

31 minutes, 13 seconds

count 146, but that's because then the hole in her neck was so big, it it was stabbed that many times, it was

31:21

31 minutes, 21 seconds

uncountable. It was like the size of a man's fist. And so, when I went to identify her, no identify, when I went

31:28

31 minutes, 28 seconds

to view her for the first time, like they had said to me, you cannot move her head, you can't touch her neck, you can. And I was like, why? But at that point,

31:35

31 minutes, 35 seconds

I didn't know she had injuries there because I I'd only seen the CCTV that was looked her head was tilted. So when

31:44

31 minutes, 44 seconds

we went that was a Thursday we went to see her like I was like my my husband put he was he's taller obviously and he was behind me and he seen first and he

31:52

31 minutes, 52 seconds

actually yanked me back and I was like no it's fine. And then I moved forward and I was like oh my god like I remember saying to Paige like what has he done to

32:01

32 minutes, 1 second

you? like and I I remember saying to my husband like she looks like Freddy Krueger. Like that's the only way I could describe it.

32:08

32 minutes, 8 seconds

Why do you think this happened?

32:11

32 minutes, 11 seconds

I don't know. Like obviously he's tried to claim she tried to blackmail him for a job and all this nonsense. Like she

32:21

32 minutes, 21 seconds

never I know Paige and everybody knows Paige. Everybody knows her knows that she never tried to blackmail Andy. But even if she did, you don't do that to her. Like you just march her out. you've

32:30

32 minutes, 30 seconds

got CCTV in your shop, you'd say that the cameras proved different. Um, but I genuinely believe that he's maybe tried

32:37

32 minutes, 37 seconds

it on. Um, and so do the police. The police have think that as well, do you think? And she's been like, absolutely

32:44

32 minutes, 44 seconds

not. Like, your ages with my mom a year younger or something, but um, and she's probably says, "I'm going to tell my mom, I'm going to tell my dad."

32:53

32 minutes, 53 seconds

And also, there was no previous like when they checked their phones, there was no real relationship. All it was was Paige getting in and buying her her rolls in the morning.

33:03

33 minutes, 3 seconds

So right away and even as a mom, my first thought was, "Oh my god, were they having some sort of relationship?"

33:08

33 minutes, 8 seconds

That's that's your first thought because there's no explanation as to why this has happened, right?

33:14

33 minutes, 14 seconds

And I even said to the police, you need to tell me like tell me so I can kind of deal with it in my head that this has actually went on. I says because she's

33:22

33 minutes, 22 seconds

only 15, so he's still in the rang regardless. But the place says we have checked everything. Emails, phone numbers, social media platforms. They

33:30

33 minutes, 30 seconds

even checked CCTV to see if there was any irregularity. Her hanging about the shop and there was nothing like she would go and get her own leaf. Like

33:37

33 minutes, 37 seconds

there was never anything like they were never seen together like or anything like that. She says 100% they were not

33:45

33 minutes, 45 seconds

having any type of relationship. She says this is why it's worse. She says cuz there was no motive. And she actually said to me, "Have you not got something to ask me?" And I was like,

33:53

33 minutes, 53 seconds

"No." And she's like, "About anything else happening to Paige." And I was like, "Well, I think enough's happened.

33:59

33 minutes, 59 seconds

Like, what else do I want to ask?" And it was my sister that says, "Did he rape her?" And she says, "No." She says,

34:03

34 minutes, 3 seconds

"This is why it's so scary. There's no motive." Like, there's no motive. Like, had he raped her, he maybe panicked?

34:11

34 minutes, 11 seconds

Does he make it right? But there would have been a reason as to why he's done it. And the police said there's absolutely nothing. There's no reason as to why he snapped that day.

34:21

34 minutes, 21 seconds

It's just so random and as you said in in plain sight and and during the day in the morning it's it's really horrific

34:30

34 minutes, 30 seconds

and you don't think it's going to happen um to your own family or yourself. But take me into the aftermath then once he's arrested. Um what was that like?

34:41

34 minutes, 41 seconds

It was crazy. Absolutely mental. Like I couldn't leave my house. Like the police were saying to me, "No, you can't

34:48

34 minutes, 48 seconds

leave." like I want to go to shops like and and everybody's kind of looking at me saying she's no right she's like no

34:56

34 minutes, 56 seconds

taking this in but I had fully took it in but I just thought I've done nothing wrong like if I want to go to a shop I'll go to a shop but again I was maybe

35:04

35 minutes, 4 seconds

a we bit naive about it like when he got arrested like it was crazy obviously up at Great Western Road there was flowers

35:12

35 minutes, 12 seconds

there was a like all these flowers and I wanted to go up and see them and they were like absolutely no you can't go up but on the night he got arrested my

35:18

35 minutes, 18 seconds

husband 's friend took me up and it was absolutely dead up there because the police kept saying there's reporters up there looking for you. There was reporters at my door

35:27

35 minutes, 27 seconds

before she was even we even knew she was killed. Like there was reporters non-stop. They were vultures. Absolute

35:34

35 minutes, 34 seconds

vultures. Um and I just thought it would die down.

35:38

35 minutes, 38 seconds

But like when my brothers and that were up at the flowers or when any family they were like when's Pamela coming to view them? When's Pamela coming to view

35:46

35 minutes, 46 seconds

them? And it was like why they want me up? like I just couldn't see it as a story. I just kept saying why why are they so interested in me getting up and seeing these flowers. So it was kind of

35:54

35 minutes, 54 seconds

like the middle of the night and he took me up and there was no the reporters were doing it the daily so they weren't interested in the flowers anymore. So I managed to get up there and see them

36:03

36 minutes, 3 seconds

just quickly and I had to keep my hood up and that and I was like this is ridiculous like I genuinely thought why am I hiding kind of thing. So I was I

36:13

36 minutes, 13 seconds

done that and then eventually I think it was a couple of days later I've had enough. I need to go to the shops. I need to go to Asda. And it was a friend and Clay Bank says, "Right, I'll take

36:22

36 minutes, 22 seconds

you." And it was like it was 24 hours then. So took me as at Clay Bank and the woman served me was serving. And she's

36:30

36 minutes, 30 seconds

like, and she went, "Oh my god, I know who you are." And gave me a big cuddle.

36:34

36 minutes, 34 seconds

And that was the first somebody recognizing me and me going, "Oh my god,

36:39

36 minutes, 39 seconds

people are going to know who I am." Cuz in my head, it was the registering.

36:42

36 minutes, 42 seconds

People are going to recognize you in the street. That's why people are saying stay indoors. But I just thought I'm not staying indoors. I'm no I've got nothing to hide.

36:49

36 minutes, 49 seconds

Did he plead guilty right away? No. No. No.

36:53

36 minutes, 53 seconds

How long did that take until he changed his plea then?

36:56

36 minutes, 56 seconds

All ages. He pleaded not guilty. Um court get court geted a few times and then at one point the court said to me,

37:04

37 minutes, 4 seconds

"Look, he's going to try and plead insanity here." And the advocate was amazing. I think it was Ian Mcporin. He was really, really good. like he was

37:12

37 minutes, 12 seconds

like no we'll draft in like good top psychologists like this isn't like culpable homicide like and he did say to

37:20

37 minutes, 20 seconds

me pal if he gets cable homicide he's stay 8 to 12 years he'll only do half it and he says we can't let this happen but

37:28

37 minutes, 28 seconds

because I spoke to all these like people that work in the courts and see things I saw at the time and they said this has

37:36

37 minutes, 36 seconds

totally affected me like it they were all broken like the police were broken.

37:42

37 minutes, 42 seconds

It was horrible like seeing them like cuz you see them as these big figures that go through this every day but you don't actually realize the impact it has

37:48

37 minutes, 48 seconds

on them. It's like I I seen it firsthand with them and again I was saying to them I hope you're all right like are you all

37:56

37 minutes, 56 seconds

right? I know you have to deal with this and they had to see things obviously at that point I hadn't seen so it was so

38:05

38 minutes, 5 seconds

then eventually he never got pleaded in insanity and I think it was like a couple of days before court he changed his ple to not guilty I think this was like the third court

38:13

38 minutes, 13 seconds

date court get a few times he changed his plea to guilty so see this is this is the thing right

38:21

38 minutes, 21 seconds

so I'm I'm just trying to picture the mindset it's such a such a monster how this can happen. But how long did it

38:29

38 minutes, 29 seconds

take until we got Paige back then or like the funeral? I know it was three our funeral was 3 days after our 16th birthday.

38:38

38 minutes, 38 seconds

Yep. Yep. So it was a month and that was only a push cuz I was fighting and fighting and fighting. The police were fighting for me as well, don't get me

38:46

38 minutes, 46 seconds

wrong. Like every day we were they were contacting his lawyer like when are you doing your because the defense are entitled to a postmortem which is

38:54

38 minutes, 54 seconds

absolutely ridiculous. But the defense are entitled to a postmortem. And the the lawyer at the time had says like,

39:01

39 minutes, 1 second

"Well, we've got so many days. I think it was 110 days to do this postmortem.

39:05

39 minutes, 5 seconds

Like, we're not in any rush." And I can say, "It's a 15-year-old girl. Send her back to her family. Is it no bad enough?" And the police were like, "It's terrible what they're doing." Like, I

39:13

39 minutes, 13 seconds

mean, the crowns postmortem was thorough. It was thorough enough. It was like 14 hours or something it took to do her postmortem. And then the days kept

39:22

39 minutes, 22 seconds

going on and I was like, I want an open coffin. I want especially a we brother he was 10 so he knew what was going on.

39:30

39 minutes, 30 seconds

Um so I was like I want him to be able but give a kiss goodbye. I was like I take him into the the morty the way she is. So she needs to be in balm. She

39:38

39 minutes, 38 seconds

needs to get brought back have her open coffin bring her home to her house basically. And uh

39:45

39 minutes, 45 seconds

eventually like they were saying her body's no holding up like there's too many injuries. Um I wouldn't let anybody bring her out. So I went to view her and

39:54

39 minutes, 54 seconds

then they said to me her injuries are that severe that if you want coughing you need to keep her in there like people kind of come up and down and view her. Um which didn't go down well

40:02

40 minutes, 2 seconds

because everybody wanted to see her and I know that it was hard for them. I know some of them understood but I didn't

40:11

40 minutes, 11 seconds

want my we girl to deteriorate kind of thing. I wanted I didn't want them to see her the way she she was. Um

40:22

40 minutes, 22 seconds

but eventually I got a phone call and it was like it's getting really bad. So the police went on the phone to the defense law and says listen Pa's going to go MP.

40:28

40 minutes, 28 seconds

She's going to go to the papers if you don't release her body. And they say right we'll do postmort. They done it the next day and it took them 45 minutes.

40:36

40 minutes, 36 seconds

How long until you managed to get the funeral? No. Yeah. So eventually, so after the postmortem,

40:45

40 minutes, 45 seconds

the undertaker says, "Right, I'll go up and see how she is." And he said to me,

40:50

40 minutes, 50 seconds

"Right, I think we can do something like it's fine. Like she is really bad." Um the undertaker was amazing. Um and he

40:58

40 minutes, 58 seconds

says, "But like we can use wax in certain places to hike things." And I was like, "Right, okay." And then the mortary phoned and they said, "You're going to need to get everybody up here

41:06

41 minutes, 6 seconds

so that there's no much left there." and it was just her night. So I had to they said you've got two days to bring

41:12

41 minutes, 12 seconds

everybody that wants to see her. Um so I went up and I took my sisters and that up at first and I I'd said to everybody

41:20

41 minutes, 20 seconds

who wants to go right we need to divide it between two days. I said but two days I'll be both like there's no way I'm going to miss a day. Um and

41:30

41 minutes, 30 seconds

by that point I couldn't take Andrew anywhere like my wee boy. You can he was too young like to see that. and we went up. Um, my brothers chose not, my dad

41:38

41 minutes, 38 seconds

chose not. He says, "I just wanted to remember the way she was because I I I phoned him and I says, "I seen her other day. She's not any hair." I say, "She's

41:45

41 minutes, 45 seconds

got bits of hair coming out like um I says her teeth are protruding. Her skin's green. Um, her eyes are sunk into

41:55

41 minutes, 55 seconds

her socket. Like she looks terrible." I says, "I don't advise any to go and see her, but I won't stop you." I says, "But

42:03

42 minutes, 3 seconds

you need to remember that's the last picture you'll see." So I my sisters like, "No, I need to I need to" and my nieces and I understood why they need

42:11

42 minutes, 11 seconds

to, but also understood that they was going to break them. They'll have that in their mind forever. And they did like one of my sisters are a bit stronger than the other. Um she's kind of built

42:20

42 minutes, 20 seconds

like me that way. But I So we all went up and my cousin that as well, they came up. Um so everybody that went to go and

42:28

42 minutes, 28 seconds

view her said their goodbyes and we didn't get the open coffin. So she came home on the Monday. That would have been

42:35

42 minutes, 35 seconds

the So the Wednesday was 2019, the day after her birthday. She came home day after her 16th birthday. Um she came home and the funeral was a wedd.

42:51

42 minutes, 51 seconds

See after that? How long until we was sentenced then? Oh god. October, I think.

42:58

42 minutes, 58 seconds

In October. court. There was court in September and it was it October for the sentencing maybe.

43:03

43 minutes, 3 seconds

So see for the sentencing are you present? Uhhuh. And what was the sentence?

43:09

43 minutes, 9 seconds

So um Lady was amazing. Like I kind of fault her and I know people sometimes say stuff but she was I can remember

43:16

43 minutes, 16 seconds

actually being at court and her having to view the pictures of Paige like you seen her face like and I knew she was looking at them right away. I was like,

43:25

43 minutes, 25 seconds

"She's looking at the pictures right now." And she was disgusted like um and the police said to me, "She's a tough judge. She'll get a good sentence

43:33

43 minutes, 33 seconds

kind of thing." And the police were like, "Hopefully, it's going to be one of the highest sentences for a child killer." And um I she gave out 30 years.

43:43

43 minutes, 43 seconds

She gave a life sentence, a punishment party at 30 years. She tried her hardest and she took three years off for pleading guilty which I don't think that

43:52

43 minutes, 52 seconds

should have happened because he didn't plead guilty at the beginning. I don't think it should happen regardless, but even still, he didn't plead guilty. He did. He was going to put us through a trial. Then he was putting us through

44:00

44 minutes

insanity. So he shouldn't have got three years, but she took three years off cuz it's protocol.

44:06

44 minutes, 6 seconds

27 27 and he appealed it. Get reduced again.

44:11

44 minutes, 11 seconds

He appealed it and it was 2 days before Christmas. Paige's first Christmas that we did the and we had to go to appeals

44:19

44 minutes, 19 seconds

court in Edinburgh and he didn't even bother coming. and he done it with video link. So, cuz he had the choice, did I

44:26

44 minutes, 26 seconds

need to go? Um, but he didn't need to for whatever reason. Um, so he appeared by video link and

44:36

44 minutes, 36 seconds

they obviously heard the reasons why this should be reduced.

44:40

44 minutes, 40 seconds

Um and it was in February we get told that it was getting the whole sentence got quashed allgether and they gave a new sentence of punishment part of 27

44:48

44 minutes, 48 seconds

years and took four years off for pleading guilty and reduced it to 23. So he's done 10 he's got 13.

44:57

44 minutes, 57 seconds

You think he'll ever be released?

45:00

45 minutes

I mean, at the time they were saying he'll never get he needs to go through so much stuff and show remorse and admit why he's done it and all the rest of it,

45:10

45 minutes, 10 seconds

but he's never going to admit why he's done it. But he could say, "This is the reason I done it and they'll believe him." Um,

45:18

45 minutes, 18 seconds

he will get released. He'll get released. He'll get a new identity. I mean, I remember going through it at the time and the the police said at the time

45:26

45 minutes, 26 seconds

like, "You probably will get a new identity. You'll go under the radar. Nobody will remember who he is.

45:32

45 minutes, 32 seconds

There was talk, I don't know how true this is. I'm sure you correct me if I'm wrong. There was talk that you were willing to go up to the prison and face

45:39

45 minutes, 39 seconds

him and speak to him face to face and ask him what happened that day. Is that is that right?

45:44

45 minutes, 44 seconds

So when Paige died, when he first went to jail, I did say I did I wrote to him.

45:49

45 minutes, 49 seconds

I wrote him a letter. Obviously never replied, but I did write a letter cuz I had to. I was like, I need to tell him what I think him. And the letter wasn't

45:56

45 minutes, 56 seconds

rude. I was like I mean I could have lot worse kind of thing but it wouldn't have got to him. The letter wouldn't have got

46:03

46 minutes, 3 seconds

to him but um I still don't know if he got the letter but I I did say I want to meet him and I

46:10

46 minutes, 10 seconds

did ask like how do I get to meet him and everybody's like you're you're not why do you want to meet this guy? I says I want him to look me in the eye. I says

46:19

46 minutes, 19 seconds

now he's not going to tell me why he did it. He could tell me anything and I'm not going to believe him. I just want him to look me in the eye. I want him to

46:27

46 minutes, 27 seconds

look me in the eye and know that I'm the mother of the child that he killed and understand that he's ruined my family's

46:34

46 minutes, 34 seconds

life, Paige's life, his life, his family's life. Like, he's ruined everybody's lives. And I just want him

46:43

46 minutes, 43 seconds

to look me in the eye and so I can tell him that. Do you think that will happen?

46:47

46 minutes, 47 seconds

No, I don't think I I'm no a 15year-old we girl that's five stone and under five foot. Do you

46:55

46 minutes, 55 seconds

know what I mean? like he's never going to want to stand in front of me. Did he have any previous? No. Well,

47:04

47 minutes, 4 seconds

no. Like he's never been arrested for anything. But after after this all happened, people

47:11

47 minutes, 11 seconds

contacted me and like I heard he done this. I heard he done that. Um and in fact, a woman contacted me, a young

47:20

47 minutes, 20 seconds

girl, and she said to me, "I'm really really sorry. It's my fault." And I was like, "How's it your fault?" And she says, "Because when I was 15, he tried

47:27

47 minutes, 27 seconds

to drag me into a car." And instead of going to the police, my brothers just battered him. And I says,

47:34

47 minutes, 34 seconds

"It's not your fault." I says, "That's exactly what would have happened had Paige get out the shop." I says, "We would have went to the police." I says,

47:40

47 minutes, 40 seconds

"Our uncles would would have battered him." I says, "That's just what would have happened like for being an idiot." Like kind of thing. Like that's no way,

47:48

47 minutes, 48 seconds

shape, or form your fault. I say, "Don't ever think it is." She says, "But if I went to the police, it might not have happened." And I went, "Don't be stupid." I said, "If you would have went to the police, you'd get slapped in the

47:56

47 minutes, 56 seconds

wrist. You'd still been out all these things." She says, "But I didn't make it public knowledge." And I says, "It's not your fault. Don't ever live your life thinking that." I said, "The only person

48:04

48 minutes, 4 seconds

to blame here is that man." I said, "I won't have anybody else think that there's anything to do with anything that's went on with them."

48:13

48 minutes, 13 seconds

Moving on in the story, Pamela. Mhm.

48:16

48 minutes, 16 seconds

We'll now go back into more the present moment.

48:19

48 minutes, 19 seconds

Mhm. We talk about your charity, Paige's promise. You know, we want to keep our memory alive and as you said, if it can

48:28

48 minutes, 28 seconds

help this never happen for it never to happen again to any of these young kids, then

48:35

48 minutes, 35 seconds

it's it's really worth it. This this charity that you've set up. So, can you talk me through that?

48:41

48 minutes, 41 seconds

So, we set a charity up and initially was just for self-defense classes. Look,

48:44

48 minutes, 44 seconds

that's what we started off with. We had like self-defense scheme in Clyde Bank.

48:48

48 minutes, 48 seconds

Um, and it was amazing. Like the kids were coming and learning stuff like even things I didn't know about. Um, and then we were helping people with funeral

48:56

48 minutes, 56 seconds

payments and took families on retreats to outdoor centers just to get them away because we were so in the limelight like

49:06

49 minutes, 6 seconds

we went away after Paige died and we kept saying no, everybody's in the position to do that and go away. We didn't go away abroad then. So we went

49:14

49 minutes, 14 seconds

we already had center parts booked. We went to caravan. And we just kept going for caravan to caravan to caravan just to get the kids away like from your house where reporters were ch the door

49:23

49 minutes, 23 seconds

every day and like when you're walking down the street people were gasping because they seen you kind of thing and I was like I don't want that. I don't

49:30

49 minutes, 30 seconds

want my kids to see that. And I'm not the only person this has happened to.

49:34

49 minutes, 34 seconds

Like things happen to people that's bad and goes in newspapers and people just need a way. Um like people lose kids all

49:42

49 minutes, 42 seconds

the time and they just need a break. So we do the kind of outdoor retreats and we went to Aen Gillan a few times and it

49:49

49 minutes, 49 seconds

was nice cuz you seen like the kids were talking to kids that had lost their parents in similar circumstances whether it was suicide or somebody had drowned

49:58

49 minutes, 58 seconds

and they've met another family who their uncle had had drowned and um so they

50:06

50 minutes, 6 seconds

they were all opening up a we bit the kids were opening up a we bit and I never expected that. I just expect them to enjoy theself. But I and I still stay in touch with a lot of the people for

50:13

50 minutes, 13 seconds

the very first retreat. Um we're also trying to tackle the appeal system because I think the appeal system is

50:22

50 minutes, 22 seconds

crazy. Like he got to appeal his sentence and victims and victims families don't get to. So that is my

50:29

50 minutes, 29 seconds

next step as well to get in touch with MPs and stuff because we already tried with the postmortem law. Um because they

50:36

50 minutes, 36 seconds

do two postmortems but they never changed it. They they changed legislation slightly but they actually

50:43

50 minutes, 43 seconds

never changed it to only having one postmortem. So the two postmortems are that still stands for the two postmortems. Um, but now I'm going to

50:52

50 minutes, 52 seconds

talk to MPs about giving families the rights to appeal the sentence because I think if uh if he can appeal his

51:00

51 minutes

sentence, then I don't see why I couldn't have put an argument forward as to why his sentence shouldn't have been reduced. Um, and there was plenty arguments like they compared Paige's

51:08

51 minutes, 8 seconds

murder to other murders which were equally as horrific and the sentences weren't high enough for them. Um, but I should have been able to put an argument

51:17

51 minutes, 17 seconds

or my lawyer should been able to put an argument across as to this is the reason why I believe that it shouldn't be reduced, but families don't have that

51:25

51 minutes, 25 seconds

right. Same as don't have a right to a lot of things. So, I'm going to be campaigning to do that as well. I've got nothing but admiration for you.

51:33

51 minutes, 33 seconds

You're a a very strong woman. I'm a nervous wreck sitting with you. But as I said, you make you make it very easy for

51:41

51 minutes, 41 seconds

me because you speak very well and good on you for being so strong. Take me into the the ball then because I know that's part of the charity and like we said at

51:50

51 minutes, 50 seconds

the start of the episode, you had characters like John Hartson, Robert Douglas, former Celtic players that are now friends. So, a lot of that money goes into the the charity as well.

52:01

52 minutes, 1 second

And so, how often you having these balls? Every 10 years? Well, no, I've had three. Had three. We've had three balls. So,

52:08

52 minutes, 8 seconds

um, obviously CO and that put a lot on hold. So, this was our first big ball since after CO really because we had so much going on. I had a couple of kids as

52:17

52 minutes, 17 seconds

well. So, a lot of things were on hold and I was moving house and things. But I had, as I say,

52:25

52 minutes, 25 seconds

family friends, you get a lot of strangers coming to the balls as well and people that's lost their kids come.

52:33

52 minutes, 33 seconds

I've met loads and loads of lovely people um that have been through stuff equally as tragic in a different way. Um

52:41

52 minutes, 41 seconds

and they come and support the balls as well as see big Robert he's not even just the ball like he'll message his wife Debbie like all the time like they

52:51

52 minutes, 51 seconds

sponsor me there for the kill walk like they'll message constantly and you know they do such amazing work theirel for the beats in like Robert like fundraises

52:59

52 minutes, 59 seconds

tirelessly um and puts a ball on and does amazing and I go to that ball as well and support that but I

53:06

53 minutes, 6 seconds

I think like a lot of my family are Celtic fans so when they seen that even John that's the first time obviously I'd met John Hartson so when they seen he

53:14

53 minutes, 14 seconds

was there like they were all him and I'm like give him peace let the guy eat his dinner kind of thing but they were lovely they were really they were lovely

53:21

53 minutes, 21 seconds

that was really good of them doing that for you um like I said it's it's been a real honor having you in the studio I want to

53:29

53 minutes, 29 seconds

thank you so much for coming on to the the Jim King show and telling your story and we'll keep Paigy's memory alive forever and anything I can do to help

53:38

53 minutes, 38 seconds

with the future balls or anything to do with the charity, then you have my word. I'll be there. Yes.

53:45

53 minutes, 45 seconds

I don't want to promise any comedy or anything like that, but I'll definitely do my bit for the charity. Mhm.

53:50

53 minutes, 50 seconds

And the link for the charity will be in the description of this video. Thank you. But before we finish up in this episode,

53:57

53 minutes, 57 seconds

if there's another message you could send out to the audience or to anyone, um, now is the time.

54:05

54 minutes, 5 seconds

I don't know. I suppose I just always tell people like don't terrify your kids of the world because the world isn't a bad bad place. Like there is so much good in the world and I've seen that

54:13

54 minutes, 13 seconds

through losing Paige but like don't wrap your kids up in cotton will because the worst isn't always going to happen in the places you expect it to.

54:22

54 minutes, 22 seconds

So you need to actually think outside the box and be more wier situations that you don't think will happen.

54:31

54 minutes, 31 seconds

Thank you very much Palmer. Just push that mic out. shake my hand.

54:36

54 minutes, 36 seconds

Thank you. It's a real honor having you in the studio and thanks for having me. I'll see you very soon. Thank you. Thank you.