Here's One To Try by Jack-Cade

i really wanted to like this because amoral humour is right up my street, but i found it too mean - the humour seems to be undercut with real animosty towards 'dumb' girls. Maybe my feminist principles are on overdrive but what do others think? Juliet

Hoo boy. You're gonna love my piece on Lara Croft...

i quite liked that one Jack, myhusband had a rather odd crush when tombraider first came out - i see you have the same fantasy :) Juliet

But your deaths, Lara, are what make you hot. What other girl can swallow dive, What girl can take a javelin right up the vagina, out through the left eye, then sigh and tumble sideways like you do? i admit the poem has contempt for Lara - but clearly there is something kinky about the above lines?? http://www.abctales.com/node/551857 lara link As for the question wouldJack's poem being any more morally sound if the victims were boys - NO. Juliet

"Cade is often accused of sexism in his writings..." Don't say that, K! It sounds like I get letters written to me or something! But yeah, this wouldn't be the first time someone's suggested there's an air of mysogyny in my work, and I got in tonnes of trouble a while back when there was a thread on What Turns You Off, and I said I was very discouraged by women who gave the impression they'd been through a string of partners. The Lara poem is kinky - if you aren't repulsed by the idea of erotic death - and Here's One To Try is nasty. The voice is meant to be that of someone you wouldn't trust your daughter with. I'd say the poem is more about him than the girls.

Perhaps it comes down to the thing Spack oft bemoans: readers assuming that the poetic voice necessarily reflects the poet's actual thoughts and proclivities. If anything, I felt slightly disappointed in Here's One To Try because it seemed to lack the 'bite' I'd expect from such subject matter - a symptom of clinging to terza rima's restrictive metre and rhyme scheme? After the initial idea's laid out, the poem doesn't really develop it. I was waiting for a progression that never came. To balance that stinging rebuke, I should point out that Jon's choice of rhymes in HOTT is never less than excellent, especially the near-rhymes like 'copter' and suchlike. Quality stuff.

'readers assuming that the poetic voice necessarily reflects the poet's actual thoughts and proclivities' I don't assume that Jack is a mysoginist - i dont know him - but the poem certainly conveys this concept. If that is its intention then it suceeds, but for me a cleverer poem would be to convey mysoginy but in a way that allows the reader to laugh at the behaviour of the narrator. If the same poem had been written but substitute the girls for an ethnic minority, it would be racist. Sod it - feminist head on - so a poem that seems to revel in ridiculing and hurting women is offensive, unless the poet is doing it to reveal how bigoted some men can be - and this poem doesn't. Juliet

"What girl can take a javelin right up the vagina, out through the left eye, then sigh and tumble sideways like you do?" Er, Frida Kahlo? "for me a cleverer poem would be to convey mysoginy but in a way that allows the reader to laugh at the behaviour of the narrator." Well, yeah but that would have been a different poem entirely and - given that it would have had to have contained a prescreptive moral message - probably wouldn't have used amoral humour. "I don't assume that Jack is a mysoginist - i dont know him - but the poem certainly conveys this concept." Doesn't really matter whether or not you know him personally. Rokkit's point is that you're taking a poem as a reflection of the poet's personal opinion rather than the reflection of a viewpoint of a character. Not sure whether that's right or wrong or whether there's even a sensible broad position but it's something that people often do with poems and poets but usually don't do with novels and novelists. Would you expect a section of a novel written from the point of view of a murderer to actively explain why murder is actually not a very good thing?

Not sure why I wrote 'a section of' there. It would have made just as much sense without it.

Writing that objectifies women as toys to be played with, is sexist, but what I don’t get from this poem is a sense that the poet knows this. There is nothing bad about writing from a viewpoint that is objectionable to a section of society if your intent is to expose this prejudice, and you don’t need a prescriptive moral message to do this – that is why great writers are so – because they don’t preach but allow the reader to form their own conclusions. But I do think that writers have to be careful not reinforce negative stereotypes – after all the press do that very well already. No, you wouldn’t expect a section of a novel to explain why murder isn’t a good thing, but in a novel you can explore multiple points of view, including that of the victim and therefore the reader has access to a more balanced viewpoint. But I do take the point that poems should also explore these viewpoints, it’s just without the other points of view it can make the writing appear cruel and discriminatory and in my opinion this is what this poem does. Juliet

A poem can be sexist without the poet being sexist, and that does not -of itself- make it a bad poem. Personally, I'd say both these poems have a somewhat mysogenistic streak (although I don't think enjoying Lara's deaths -something I used to do- translates into an attitude towards other computer game heroins, let alone real women), but I still like them both. It is up to readers to provide their own censorship, authors can write about what the hell they like.

Yes and author can write what the hell they like, but I think it maybe a little unwise to alienate at least 50% of your readers by being sexist, though that is the authors perogative. But when you publish this work, you have to abide by the code of conduct of the site or magazine. ABCtales does not tolerate racism, sexism, or any other form of discrimination. Juliet

Juliet, I respectfully disagree with your position on this. Firstly, I don't think you'd have even considered calling this poem mysoginistic if you believed the writer was female. In fact, I'm sure you wouldn't have. That's a double standard, for a start. What if Plath's 'every woman loves a fascist' line (I can't remember her exact wording) had been written by a chap? I suspect lots of people would read it differently. 'I think it maybe a little unwise to alienate at least 50% of your readers by being sexist..' Err... flagged by a girl, wasn't it? Isn't it more sexist for you to presume to speak on behalf of all females, as if womankind were a monolith? I did a poetry gig recently where a girl came up to me afterwards and said she didn't think I ought to read one particular poem anymore, (Heart of Class) as 'working class women feel shit enough about themselves already', since they are 'the most oppressed minority in the UK'. I thanked her for her comments, said I was sorry if I'd offended her, and did absolutely bugger all to change the poem. Much as I think her heart was probably in the right place, I can't think of any of my female friends who consider themselves 'working class' who wouldn't have found her protestations incredibly patronising.

Sexist: discriminatory on the basis of sex (usually said of men's attitude toward women) n : a man with a chauvinistic belief in the inferiority of women. I really doubt that a woman would write a poem like this, but either way I would find it sexist, unless as I have said before, the sexism is being used to illustrate bigotry. As for Plath’s ‘daddy’ – the line you quote ‘every woman adores a fascist’, I would suggest is ironic, it demonstrates her struggle to understand her feelings towards her father and apparently her husband (so other interpretation say), the last line summing it up ‘daddy, daddy, you bastard, I’m through’. What a fantastic poem though – I was blown away by it. http://www.sylviaplathforum.com/daddy.html (Plath’s poem, Daddy) And know i can't talk for all women, however being one, i am entitled to try. However i can see i am on my own on this one, so i will gracefully retire from this debate and make some cookies :) its been fun. Juliet

Okay, I agree with some of what you've said, Juliet, but what you're demonstrating is that the poem's narrator may have sexist proclivities (and, to be honest, those only really come out in the first stanza's use of 'sluts' - the rest is fairly playful misanthropy rather than being directed at females in general) rather than showing that the poem itself, or the poet, promotes this position. If 'every woman adores a fascist' can be read as ironic, why can't the content of this poem? I'm not saying the two are on equal footing as pieces of art, (sorry Jon) but when you read Plath, don't you take a whole load of preconceptions and assumptions to the text with you? Anyway, I'd better follow your lead and step away from the thread, otherwise I'm likely to launch into a lengthy tirade on Plath and why I think she's technically gifted but emotionally and intellectually bankrupt. *exhales heavily* I respect your position and I'm happy to agree to disagree on this one.

At risk of using 'well, yeah but... too often' Well, yeah but I think 'Heart of class' to the intelligent reader or listener is, I would've thought fairly obviously, the sort of humourous exploration of stereotypes that Juliet would be quite happy with. Anyway, I disagree with this position: "There is nothing bad about writing from a viewpoint that is objectionable to a section of society if your intent is to expose this prejudice, and you don’t need a prescriptive moral message to do this" I don't accept that the only acceptable reason for writing from an objectionable point of view is to expose prejudice. There is no need to use art to expose the prejudice of openly racist, sexist and homophobic people in society because their prejudice is already visible and exposing their specific actions is a job for journalists. So this seems to lead us on to the position that it's wrong to represent openly objectionable people in fiction unless either they get their moral comeuppence or the author can be seen to actively show another point of view. "No, you wouldn’t expect a section of a novel to explain why murder isn’t a good thing, but in a novel you can explore multiple points of view, including that of the victim and therefore the reader has access to a more balanced viewpoint." I don't accept that the role of art is to provide balanced viewpoints. To some extent, that could be the role of journalism but, without expanding in horrific detail, I think this approach ultimately restricts the possiblity for art to be interesting, credible or, in some cases, honest.

just wrote something really pretensious - got carried away - gone now. juliet

If all representations of people being non-pc were removed from literature, I'd stop reading. Some of my favorite books are Houellebecq's, Suskind's and Nabokov's. My own writing on here could be perceived as sexist - I rarely portray women as anything other than prostitues or as devious. And so what? It's not a reflection of any deep rooted mysogony, it's just what, in those instances, I think will fit with the story. I have an issue with feminism and my issue is this: While I appreciate that in a patriarcal society it is necessary for women to assert and fight for their position, 'feminism' by definition is pro-women - and a society that was strictly matriatchal would be no better (and I don't mean in terms of how it is run, I mean in terms of equality). I have no tolerence for extremist views. We should be striving for equal rights for men, women and everyone in between, and these outdated, counter-productive and bigoted postitions adopted within feminism should be dropped - just as male chauvism should be removed from society. In the meantime, I'd suggest to all: consider carefully before thowing ideas of censorship around. The last thing I would want is to end up in a censored society like they have in many middle east countries / America / China etc. I liked the Lara Croft poem, btw. Enzo.. www.thedevilbetweenus.com

I just wish someone would spell misogyny correctly.

I agree, I also have no tolerance for extremist views, but I feel well-placed feminism is necessary. In the sense that I support equal rights and pay for both sexes, I’m also a feminist. Aside from the extremists you speak of, I think most feminists aren’t out for a superior position or a strictly matriarchal society – they just want equality, and this even playing field would bring about the equal rights you speak about for all. The majority of feminists don’t make into the media because their actions aren’t deemed radical enough, and this, to me, is where feminism really exists.

"Does anyone ignite so easily?" I love the Lara poem, it would go down a storm in some poetic circles I know because of its sheer bad taste whilst asking valid questions about video game violence and misogyny. But surely female characters have a right to go adventuring and die horribly as much as any orc or elf?

Foster we are in complete agreement, I just don't like things being done under the banner of feminism. At one time, it was completely valid but these days I think the focus needs to shift or the damage done to women by 'feminists' in recent years(i.e. porn stars using the term to justify their trade, etc) will continue and worsen. A society where every shelf in the bookshop is 'nuts' and 'fhm', anyone? It's not just men making that happen, you know. I despise those magazines, I think they are a real evil in our society. Just as all the women's magazines are, like Heat etc, that encourage women to look a certain way, like shitty celeb gossip and go about 'getting their man' in a particular way. Those are just as damaging to women as anything else in society. Finally, just to address something Foster said: I am in no way putting down the little things many women do every day, striving towards and equal position - with 'equal' being the key word. I'm sorry if I wasn't clearer before. We shouldn't be discussing this here; apologies Jack. Enzo.. www.thedevilbetweenus.com

Not much to add to some already good points. The poem certainly isn't sexist. For one thing, it's not about women. The 'hot young things' mentioned are specifically implied to be the kind of stereotypical 'dizzy blondes' that are routinely and sometimes viciously scorned by female journalists with feminist leanings. The narrator's feelings towards them may be less than respectful, but he doesn't hate them, or feel contempt towards them. He does *objectifty* them, but so does this sentence. The complaint about being 'objectified', when taken to extremes, is one of the reasons people stop taking feminists seriously. We're always objectifying each other - from the way I hear girls speak about David Tennant, for example, you'd think he was a nice pair of shoes. It seems to be a pretty natural way to talk about a person or people, when you want to possess them. "A cleverer poem would be to convey mysoginy but in a way that allows the reader to laugh at the behaviour of the narrator" Erm...his plan is to seduce girls by turning a house into a deathtrap. I don't think I need to signpost any more heavily the fact that he's not to be taken seriously. I don't really want to get too far into feminist territory if I can help it, but any attempt to talk on behalf of 'women' in general is self-defeating. Women are all individuals. They aren't a category to be summarised and martialled.

I note that you say this piece is not about women. "Bzt! Girls will be marshmallows." OK - girls then. Speaking as a mere, human-being, I found this poem distasteful - but then I guess there's no such thing as bad publicity, is there? Think I might try doing a follow up to 'Here's one to try' - a poem that's ' not about women', with 'here's one I made earlier' - a poem of the same ilk -that's ' not about men.' Hope your cookies turned out good, Juliet! SSS

It's not about women, or girls. All views are not equal, and that particular one is moronic. Glad you found it distasteful. Can't think of anything worse than writing a poem that could be described as 'tasteful'.

I don't think I like being called a 'moron' - that sure is 'distasteful'. OK so it's not about women or girls? Is there another word to describe the female gender that is missing from my vocabulary. How about 'slut' you use that word too? How long can you go on with this? I'm 'game' if you are. 'Can't think of anything worse than writing a poem that could be described as 'tasteful'. Sad. SSS

I didn't call you a moron. I said that the view that the poem is about women, or girls, or any other word you want to use to describe females. is moronic. The poem involves female characters, but it doesn't follow that any poem that has women in it, or is about particular women, is also about women in general. I think you've also misunderstood my comment, which isn't surprising.

And I think, unsurprisingly, you've misunderstood mine - comment that is. Do you know Jack - I think you would make a brilliant poilitician. 'The poem involves female characters' I.e. women - yes? 'But it doesn't follow that any poem that has women in it, or is about particular women is also about women in general'. Eh? And this poem isn't meant to be about women - sorry meant to say - 'women in general??????????????????????? No matter who it's about -it's still distasteful - gosh sorry, forgot you abhor that word - unpleasant, shall we say. At the end of the day - you have the right to freedom of expression.

Come come Jack, surely you must realise that you are only permitted to write 'nice' poems on ABC nowadays. Acceptable topics are-death of a pet, romantic longing, sick relatives and my life during the war. Oh yeah, and they have to rhyme, none of this new fangled(sic) free verse rubbish. Anything you write, can be and will be used as evidence of the falling moral standards in society at large and proof positive that you are evil. You are young enough to change Jack, get yourself down to Waterstones and suck up some Pam Ayres, you know it makes sense. I'm 72 you know.

I do hope not, Chagrin! That would rule at least half of my poems out for a start. SSS

Triple-S, what on earth are you getting so confused about? It's not a poem about women. It's a poem about someone who thinks electrifying a house is a great way to win women. He may be a dangerous fool, but it's not sexist, and it's not misogynous. No women were hurt in the making of this poem. This is the second thread I've seen you on where your main contribution is to rather sniffily assert that a poem is disasteful. In both cases, I disagree. Have you thought about commenting on poems that *don't* offend you instead?

Moi? Confused? I wasn't but I guess I am now JC. !!! As for your point about commenting on poems that 'don't' offend I have, frequently, but it's not HALF as much FUN as commenting on those that do! Have a good day JC. Triple S.