cherry for a poem - lawks!

Was talking to a poet about this at the weekend, and it is my humble view that most very good prosers make lousy poets. I will never inflict my poetry on anyone again. I think it is because a poet has to come at the emotion in a short concentrated space, rather than having it develop through character and situation - if you tried to write a short story with the intensity of a poem it would be horribly overwrought. Where prosers tend to go wrong in poetry is that they generally come at the emotion too full-on and raw or they omit it entirely. It is a little like, (oh dear) a little like caressing a certain button-like part of a lady and the way that most (but not all men) approach this. Do you see what I mean? And the other common failing is not having proper regard to words. In prose, sloppiness can escape in the volume, but in a poem every word has to be selected with care. You need to think about not only what the words mean but how they SOUND - a prose writer will cheerfully put words with similar strong sounds in two lines of a poem that would make a poet cringe in agony. The SOUND and texture is far, far more important in a poem than in prose, where the writer is really only trying to drive the reader on, to move the pace. Haven't read Feargal's poem, so this isn't a dig at that. I just think that with all the very strong writers on the site, I can think of only one or two who can do consistently well in both fields. Fishwife can do both, and I think when they avoid fiction, Fey and Stormy can do both. And all three of them are predominantly poets. I can't think of a prose writer who nails poetry on a regular basis.

I agree with Andrew wholeheartedly on this, that is why I wasn't sure about the poem in the first place. I wanted to put some poetry on here because it's a place to try things out and have some fun with it really. I think that once Robinson Jeffers wrote poetry nobody needed to bother again. If you haven't read his poetry, do. It's marvellous. I have noticed that a lot of the poetry on here is very 'I' focussed, that is to say it's often about things that have happed to somebody's ego or something, whereas all my favourite published poets have made profound philosophical points in beautiful language. Emily Dickinson once said, 'If I feel like the top of my head has blown off, then that is poetry.' I've always been rather fond of that one.

The Eye Robinson Jeffers The Atlantic is a stormy moat; and the Mediterranean, The blue pool in the old garden, More than five thousand years has drunk sacrifice Of ships and blood, and shines in the sun; but here the Pacific-- Our ships, planes, wars are perfectly irrelevant. Neither our present blood-feud with the brave dwarfs Nor any future world-quarrel of westering And eastering man, the bloody migrations, greed of power, clash of faiths-- Is a speck of dust on the great scale-pan. Here from this mountain shore, headland beyond stormy headland plunging like dolphins through the blue sea-smoke Into pale sea--look west at the hill of water: it is half the planet: this dome, this half-globe, this bulging Eyeball of water, arched over to Asia, Australia and white Antartica: those are the eyelids that never close; this is the staring unsleeping Eye of the earth; and what it watches is not our wars. sorry, but I had to share him.

This cherry thing is weird. That is why I miss the ratings? I would have cherried Liana's Glass for sure, well, all Liana's work. Was reading Stephen Daly's work last night for first time. He has some wonderful poems uncherried The prose/poets thing? Many of my fave poets on ABC, including Ivory, Liana, Robert, Jude, Chant etc write fantastic diaries. Maybe this is to do with what Fergal says of a lot of poets here writing about their own emotions. The most amazing thing to me is how they can write this heart piercing stuff and be hilariously funny the rest of the time (this does not include the last piece of prose I read of Jude's, which was harrowing, and uncherried) I know someone who has not been cherried for a long while. It has caused them to feel they can't write, though their work, to me annyway, is just as strong, if not more so than before. The trouble is, some writers ARE insecure, and DO judge their own work by how others see it, and, whatever is said about cherrying being subjective, they ARE important. To start with I was so sad I deleted anything that didn't get cherried. Hardly get them now :0) But, the last few I have, have been for prose, though I can't see that some of the poems are any worse than what got cherries before? Though some are, for sure (finding it very hard to write happy stuff which isn't drivel) One of my favourite Purplehaze diaries, just brimming with joy, wasn't cherried... Nikoletta is brilliant at both poetry and prose. Nancy's piece J is one of the loveliest bits of prose for me on the site. I would dearly love to read some Wolfgirl poems! And, Andrew, I LIKED the Charlton Heston poem!

Thank you Andrew, that was very well explained. As someone who generally writes prose I agree with you about the ham fistedness of my own approach to poetry. I can't speak for anyone else. I will try to think about the musicallity more of what I write in the future. ( although despite the cherry I think I'll stop posting poetry for a few years.)

Ah, now Feargal makes a good point. I learned a great deal from trying to write poetry and failing, and I wouldn't want to discourage anyone from trying (except those dear sweet girls who felt the need to post five self-harming poems a day for six months when I was editing, which made me utterly mournful). I am just saying that it is not such a cross-discipline as you might imagine, given that both are connected to words. Prosers are creators of little movies and poets are photographers. And though Scorsese has an eye and Woody Allen has an eye, they don't tend to be award-winning photographers. Nor do award-winning photographers make great movie directors. It would take me as long to write a good poem as a novel, and I'd rather write a novel. There's that aspect too - as a prose writer, if I wrote fifty words in a day, I'd be distraught. As a poet, I'd think I was going way too fast. You might sketch out a poem in that time, but unless you're very very good, the finished work takes much longer, word for word.

Interesting point from Andrew... I write (or try to) poetry, but I am a really fine photogropher... Any prosers actually DO movies apart from Dan? And why are we always so bashful about our writing? I find it really easy to say that my photography is good, but cringe when asked about poetry...

For the record, I paint, draw and have dabbled in photography. I also sing, which brings me all sorts of relationships with words...some narrative, some symbolist, some descriptive, momentary, emotional. The sound sense of words is vital in recital songs...not so much in opera, where the musical line is generally the overriding concern...though not exclusively. There can be 'moments' in movies as well...like I believe there can be narratives in poetry, even a mixture. I love the 'capture' aspect of photos.

I've scripted some movies that my friend Kevin shot, and I used to put out a small-press comic that someone else drew. I find that the most satisfying type of work, to be honest - working with someone else creative and not having to bloody describe things. It is in our nature to be modest. I'd say that of my stuff, there are certain pieces that I'm proud of and that I think do what they set out to do. And eighty per cent of them have been written this year, which is as it should be. (From the Hip, Satchel, Balloon Brother - which is not here, the new novel and The Unorthodox World of Mister Glass) I am only bashful about my writing because non-writers always say 'so what's your stuff about then?' - this is quite a hard answer for me.

I'm making a training movie right now (for work)...big deal..., I made movies as a kid, sort of a Spielberg thing, but never had the money/time/talent to invest. I've always been a photographer of sorts. Used to write music also, but those days went up in smoke with the garage bands. The Ego of a typical musician is far worse than that of writer, I like this breed better. I like your analogy Andrew, I know that when I'm writing a story, I visualize it in motion and then try to describe it. Can't do that with poetry I guess.

i am not predominantly a poet! this raises a very interesting whatsit ... and a good point there from fay about diaries too ... my position on this has always been that it is far easier to get away with mediocre prose than poetry ... and that there is far MORE very bad poetry than very bad prose because it is QUICK ... a mediocre piece of prose will have more than just the words ... hopefully it will have a bit of plot and characterisation that might connect with people ... it might tell a gripping tale even tho it doesn't tell it very beautifully ... a mediocre poem doesn't have any of these fallbacks ... it will just be a mediocre collection of words without much rhyme or anything else ... no music ... it won't make the top of your head blow off ... but because anyone can bang out truly atrocious poetry and post it in a matter of minutes there is tons and tons of it everywhere ... people won't do that with atrocious prose so often because it just isn't as quick and easy ...

yes you are

Gosh, yes, there's so much bad poetry around and I suspect I've added to the volume, because I've begun to enjoy writing poetry. Stories clunk around in my head for weeks before I get them on computer, and sometimes I never do because plot and mood and characters and location haven't gelled together. I've got a bottomless pit of unsatisfactory stories but only half-a-dozen unpublished poems 'cos if a poem's sat around for two days or so I think "what the hell ..." and post it anyway. Which might explain why my cherry ratio's on the slide!

YES YOU ARE though, haven't read your novel :0) THAT is something to look forward to!

I have, it is fab... but she is still a poet in my eyes. As far as I am concerned (and its subjective of course) she knocks everyone else on abc into a cocked hat with her poetry (apart from Will Tate who is a God, and Eddie who is well... brilliant) There are some really fine poets on here, but she sets the standard. (The bitch)

Changing tack again a bit here... Thomas Hardy...brilliant at both prose and poetry. DHLawrence also able with both...though a controversial figure and not as universally liked. anyone know any other examples?(apart from fish)

Variations on the Word Love This is a word we use to plug holes with. It's the right size for those warm blanks in speech, for those red heart- shaped vacancies on the page that look nothing like real hearts. Add lace and you can sell it. We insert it also in the one empty space on the printed form that comes with no instructions. There are whole magazines with not much in them but the word love, you can rub it all over your body and you can cook with it too. How do we know it isn't what goes on at the cool debaucheries of slugs under damp pieces of cardboard? As for the weed- seedlings nosing their tough snouts up among the lettuces, they shout it. Love! Love! sing the soldiers, raising their glittering knives in salute. Then there's the two of us. This word is far too short for us, it has only four letters, too sparse to fill those deep bare vacuums between the stars that press on us with their deafness. It's not love we don't wish to fall into, but that fear. this word is not enough but it will have to do. It's a single vowel in this metallic silence, a mouth that says O again and again in wonder and pain, a breath, a finger grip on a cliffside. You can hold on or let go. -Margaret Atwood she's another one...

I wouldn't know but Tom Saunders work gets high praise for both his prose and poetry over at UKA.

And Nancy.Am

Oh, Liana...wonderful example there, thanks.

I did forget Tom Saunders - and he's the first one who I think writes stronger prose than poetry but does both exceedingly well. (And I still think of him as ours, Flash, though he came here from another writing site, so neither of us can really lay claim to him) Tom, enter the discussion and give us your views. (And Fish - yes you are a bloody poet, I've seen your back garden. And nobody but a poet would control their shower with a screwdriver... You write better prose than I ever will, which just makes my classification of you even more galling. I never get jealous of people being great poets, because I know they'll always be skint and largely unhappy...)

*raises eyebrow* the shower is controlled by a pair of scissors ... it's the washing machine that's controlled by a screwdriver ... and i think tom saunders is a marvellous example of a proser who writes lush poetry ...

...my shower is controlled by a push-button in the outside store...

Stand corrected - the bolt on your bathroom door is actually a screwdriver. I was a bit blinded by steam from being unable to operate the scissor-control on your shower and turn the shower off. Sorry! Loved the book to bits by the way - can't wait to see it in print. I've never actually read an entire novel on screen in one bite before and managed to do this and enjoy it immensely despite other diversions being present.

oh i forgot about the screwdriver bolt! i have been planning to have a high old time with fergal when our books are out ... mainly childrens authoress sleepovers with JK ...

(don't forget the boho pyjamas)

Don't be embarrassed about your poem Fergal. It was good.

hey Tony, if you're short on editors, then I'll volunteer to give it a go, my writing style aint that great, and I know a lot of people on here don't like my writing; but that doesn't matter - being a bad writer doesn't make me a bad judge of writing. I am a good reader. I read a lot of different sort of books, and pieces on ABC, and feel I have a good idea about what works in a piece and what doesn't. I am not dedicated to a certain genre, and am willing to try and experiment with different things, I'm not biased and I'm good at seperating the writing from the person. I will read all types of writing, and feel I am a good judge on whether something is good or not and am open-minded. Though I can only do it part time, as am working real long hours at the moment; so would be like a couple of hours a day or something, and at different times, as my shift patterns change each week; but that is better than nothing, and I'd like to give those writers who feel a bit left out on the cherry front, a chance, as a lot of people feel the cherry picking system is a bit biased at the moment, and that's not good, as it should be open to all people. So it would be in your interests to get as many varied editors on your team as possible, so that all genres can be encouraged. anyway, if you don't think I'm good enough to be an editor, or I'm not published enough and in the limelight enough for you etc, then I'll understand, but the offers there anyway; and Hell you really need more editors, you need eclectic people up there man. take it easy. [%sig%]

Guess that's a 'No' then... (-:

Hey, Rich - I agreed to do it six weeks ago and still haven't edited a single piece, so don't get disheartened. Anyway, to paraphrase the great Phil Collins - oh, it's no fun, being an illegal editing 'un...

It's not a recruitment problem guys.. it's the fault of that tav-vamp... the eds cant be instated at all at the moment.

gotcha , a tav-vamp problem, soz for the intensity about da editorial thing. Andrew's gonna be an editor again (-: that is very cool news. safe as [%sig%]

oh, GLAD Andrew's going to edit again :0) Are you going to, too, Liana, would be BRILLIANT? I think Richie would be fab too, cos he is very encouraging, and takes time to email people whos stuff he reads (is how we met ...) ps Andrew, what IS Jagos? Guessed was some kind of expensive whisky, though never heard of it, thought of buying "how to make illegal Scotch" from cat's protection league shop, just in case...

That book sounds marvellous fay, what an investment!! No, am not going to edit again, though I have the ear of an editor or two, so i can still put my two penn'orth in... I dont have the time anymore sadly (though I do in the summer, i definitely don't in termtime) Andrew used to be brilliant (is also how we met) and I think it's fab that he's doing it again soon.

'I can't think of a prose writer who nails poetry on a regular basis.' Me? Or do you mean *good* poetry? :)

Yes, I consider that I can "nail" poetry too ... nail it stone dead, mostly, but I'll persevere!

I like poems by both of you.

I cant do prose. *seethes*

your diary was prose wasn't it? huh? huh? look how I put my email up there instead of my name. What a baffoon.

hahah i saw that, goon. i dont count the diaries. And whats more, I cant write poetry anymore either. All i write is essays, and even then, not successfully. Anyone got a noose going spare?

actually what was even better was that I put my email up there again when pointing out that I put my email up there... how rubbish am I? No noose going spare. You're just going to have to write some poems and be done wiht it. (and the diaries *do* count, so there).

Ferg, You're a good writer, why are you surprised?

I liked this Fergal. The form/puncuation adds to it rather than being a gimmick. The the message hits home well. So is this your first poem cherry?..it's mutual (apart from a 6 line bit of erotic fun I wrote)...what do you suppose they're on in the office at the mo...or is it just that cherries are in season..? ;-)

Isn't it odd, I have just had the same experience. I was going to remove a poem I put up yesterday because I had decided in the night it was rubbish and sentimental. But it got picked too. I agree Fergal that poetry is much harder to get right, and much harder to judge. Having said that I always know what I like when other people write it. I am a fan of Liana's work. So why is it so hard to judge our own? I'm off to read your poem. well done!

Just read "Want", and now I am embarrased I drew any comparison. It's really good Fergal! I like it way more than I like my own.

Aww thanks Sirren... I tell you, this cherry lark is a weird thing... I have reloaded one that Tony adored so much the first time round, he flagged it up.. yet this time he has passed it over. So who knows how the minds of the eds work eh? Perhaps it's a frame of mind thing...

I know what you mean. the story I am most proud of on here is the one which hasn't been picked, Indelible lives- maybe I should repost it and see what happens. Is that allowed?

maybe it's the tropical storm-like weather.... Thanks for your comments. I've been enjoying people's poems on here for a while - good to see some of your stuff on here now Liana - I liked Incantation a lot, but they are all good because you have that good mix of idea/emotion/imagery/senses that makes a perfect poem.

i don't wish to be mean sirren but have just read that poem of yours and i don't really understand why it was cherried ... other work i have read of yours has been MUCH better ... but which of us can possibly guess what happens in the mind of an editor .... *sighs wistfully*

Ooer, this is all down to me. I had a big reading session last night. I left Liana's poems to Mark as he is a good judge of her work. Let's first of all get this straight - poetry is not my bag. I like it but I don't write it and therefore find it difficult, at times, to judge it. However both Sirren's and Fergal's poems both hit a note with me. I found them well written and poignant. Normally with poems I ask around for a second opinion - saying 'I liked this one, what do you think? - but yesterday I took the plunge on my own bat. Cherrying is inevitably subjective. There was some excellent new writing on the site yesterday and the cherries flowed - and no, I didn't have a drink at lunchtime! Sometimes I award cherries for a writer trying a new style that I feel is beginning to work, for a writer who gets a bit better or just for pure excellence. I try to be as objective as I can be but I accept that I can be capricious. That's why I look at these forums most days to see what you lot like and listen to your suggestions.