Mr Bax and the Five Cow Wife

Hmmmm.....I guess 1947 was before you were born eah Rita? Grind a new axe, this one's dull. British colonization of India was a short speck in the time-line of India's history. So, you don't like British people that talk about India, that's about all I can gather from your comments here. Were you raised to hate the British? We got over it here some 180 years ago. So, instead of ragging at a good writer with a different point of view, why aren't you putting forth your own point of view? Maybe you can moan about how poorly women are treated by their own traditions, or how you aren't taken seriously as individuals or maybe you can even come up with an original thought that hasn’t been explained a thousand times over by better writers. Maybe you can find the fortitude to rise above your own petty bigotry and write something that actually has a voice and small amount substance to it rather than a puff of gas from a diaper that's never been changed.

I found the story slight - it felt more like the opening of something longer. But it had a lovely flow to it, with loose, easy sentences and an accessible voice. Very readable.

So you don't think the disgusting and ancient caste system you operate in India has anything to do with the poverty that rampages through the country? You don't think that the inability of it's people to stop breeding like rats in a country that can't support it's population at a civilised level has anything to do with it? Rita, you are a disgrace to your country, if for no other reason than your stupid rants here are getting it a bad name.

George if that is your post above, and it is not clear these days... then my opinion of you has finally reached rock bottom.... it saddens me to say so, but in moments like these (following on from your recent tasteless and offensive royal thread where you were rejoicing in another human's death and refering to children as 'crap') you highlight how sick and ignorant a fellow you can be... ...in all this you really are saying more about your self worth than anything of any value to anyone and are frankly no better than the worst of the offenders on these threads... (Ah well, your business, but at least you should know)

I'm a little uncomfortable with why it's ok for Rita to spout her bigotted nonsense yet sick and ignorant for george to do the same? Don't apply double standards Gerry. A close reading of PTI by the way, reveals a narrator who reviles and attempts to subvert the ideologies of Empire... try reading it properly Rita.

I don't know Rita, Liana. I have met George and it IS disapointing. I have since read her previous comments on other threads, clearly she has been behaving in a deranged manner and I just don't understand why anyone bothers with those sort of posts when it is reaction that she is blatantly after.... I must say that George's comment above matches hers for bigotted stupidity... It would be like me having a go at all Scottish people because of Stephen's behaviour on these forums... apart from that, it is transparent idiocy to talk about civilised behaviour when you are acting in a less than civilised manner yourself.

Yes Gerry that post was the real me, unlike all those that were removed from other threads over night. If you want real tastelessness and offensiveness Gerry, you might like to trawl through the behaviour of this islands 'royal' family over the last 500 years. Having just re-read my last post I can't for the life of me see what it is exactly that you find so offensive. Surely you don't condone the caste system? A medieval method of keeping a section of the community in the gutter! Surely you don't condone the breeding of children that can't be fed and housed properly? Wasn't it common practice in parts of India to cripple new born kids so as to put them on the streets as beggars? Rita is consumed with a hatred of Britain based on what she perceives as the damage done to her country by the Raj. She's too thick to understand that the people involved in that are all dead now and those of us here now in the main are just as horrified at what occurred as she is. Her continual slagging of this country (and make no mistake here, I am NOT nationalistic in ANY shape or form) just stokes up the fire of prejudice everywhere. She IS a disgrace. I can see that you have taken all this personally though that was the furthest thing from my mind. Gerry you are entitled to your opinion of me and I make no excuses for my views on third world politics and policies, but there can be no place in a modern world for old world practises and forms of bondage that were thrown into the pit of obsolescence eons ago in the rest of the world. For what it's worth I always thought of you as a civilised Briton, my remarks were not intended to be racist or moronic. If the price of my freedom of speech is your derision, then so be it.

Wasn't that a Pete Townsend song? The Real Me.

So on the one hand you refer to other people's lives as being like rats, scum, children as 'crap', rejoice gleefully when when people die, have wished the death of people you have never met (on these forums) and continuously use vile language when pursuing your rabid hatreds.... and on the other hand you rail against a caste system or 'medieval' cultural practices.... What is the difference between you and them George? Are you speaking from a higher moral plane here or what .... to me you ARE the embodiment of what you rail against... given half a chance you would be there with the pitchfork... I think it offensive that you can speak about other humans in these terms all the time and not get challenged for it... whoever they be... I don't think I am suggesting you are racist George... just at times a stomach churningly sick individual on a par with some of the worst offenders here in the way that you consider other lives worthless compared to your own... Does this make you a disgrace to your nationality? For me this is where it stops. I have no desire to continue this conversation, as I said, it is only fair that you know what I think.

Well like yourself Gerry, I'm only a human. Sometimes I get majority agreement and others I don't. Just like you as it happens. On this issue I believe you've completely mis-interpreted my meaning but that's your right too. I won't however resort to trading insults with you, on this occasion you can have a monopoly.

I don't think there's much chance of that rita. you are you're own worst enemy. Totally unhinged.

It is written from the point of view of a white tourist in an African holiday resort. The character is self=confessedly ignorant of the way things work in Gambia, but he is open to insight, and he ends with a glimpse of connections under the surface. The piece makes no pretence to analysis. Leave that to the likes of Chinua Achebe and Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie. d.beswetherick.

I thought the story was enjoyable. It had a Phileas Fogg air about it. I'd change the 14th and 15th para as they come across a bit awkward and politically correct, whereas he could be more pompous, which would make the character funnier. The beginning needs a trim but overall I thought it was a nice piece of satire. Obviously writing about race and different cultures isn't racist.

Having worked closely and amicably with West African refugees, I thought this was a charming homage to a life much different from ours. The only part I had a little trouble with was the narrator discussing very serious but taboo issues such as female circumcision and HIV with a businessman and complete stranger, whom he had just met! My work addressed these issues within refugee communities, and they're not usually casually discussed over tea! (Although, in typical Western tourist fashion, one could assume that the narrator had no real grasp of cultural sensitivity). But that's just my anthropological training coming out. You might want to save the gender-political issues for a different story, as it adds nothing to the telling. But the story, all in all, had a nice 'feel' to it. [%sig%]

I know very little of West African refugees and the social norms of the various African cultures. Therefore, I'll skip all the bullshit on that discussion. Now, for an American point of view.... This is a wonderfully written story with a VERY British flavor to it. Rita points out that it presents a Stereotypical Westerners view of this region, which is valid; however, it is an incomplete assessment. It also presents a stereotypical view of a Brit, and this is the weakness of the story. The brief commentary on the social norms of the local inhabitants aren't really required for the story, they do, however, lend a certain feel to the story. I think the story would have been better served if the setting was a bit earlier of period and the stereotype of the British tourist had been played to fuller effect. If you're going to tread these waters, wade into it neck deep and wallow in it. As it stands, the prose is excellent, the plot weak.

Erm, yes, back to the original story. But don't forget, at least where India is concerned, that we are (or should be) viewing a cultural experiment in the making. India is very rapidly becoming a more technology-driven country, which may hold HUGE ramifications/repercussions for its ancient customs. Western culture underwent rapid and often unpleasant changes starting with the Industrial Revolution, but the greatest changes have occurred only since the end of WWII with the onset of 'modern' technology, computers, aerospace, etc. If I may point out, people 'breeding' children they can't afford to feed, at least in the developing world, stems almost entirely from the change from an agrarian to a commerce-driven society, with the cultural changes not adjusting rapidly enough to the economic changes. In agrarian societies, children hold _value_ as potential helpers. The erosion of the traditional agrarian/pastoral/etc. societies and the onset of commodity-driven economics has rendered 'extra' children unaffordable, as the children are no longer (legally) able to contribute to the support of the household. Hence the maimings, so that the children are able to 'earn' their keep financially. Ensuring education for women/female children has the most profound impact on birthrates (as does industrialisation), so let's quit quibbling and instead donate time/money/effort to the education and empowerment of females, please. I still liked the story, and found it humourous, warts n' all. [%sig%]

Are there any cowboys in India?

Mum told me, when she used to live in India, she was told by Indian friends that the parents who maimed their children, eg by making holes in their faces when babies, did so out of kindness, as a way for them to earn money for themselves through life? Which made India seem very scary to me, that love could be so twisted by necessity Found point about commodity led culture very interesting too.

>> ...the parents who maimed their children, eg by making holes in their faces when babies, did so out of kindness... << Oh well, that's alright then. I'm now ashamed of myself for even thinking it might be the act of a medieval society one step removed from cannibalism. *waits for the next amputated arachnid insulting post about my views*

Hmm. That _is_ a very American point of view. I'll choose to not take umbrage at serious issues being labelled 'bullshit', since they're not at the heart of the story. I'm not sure the narrator is particularly 'British', apart from the obvious reference to a northern city; the views aren't really distinguishable as being anything but 'Western' (and I found the reference to a 'diffident, non-colonial stance' quite funny. I mean, let's face it, most of Western Europe colonised parts of Africa at one point or another, so the whole post-Colonial self-consciousness could as easily have come from a Belgian as a Brit, or an American if you are talking about Liberia). I would like a little _more_ of the social norms included, or more of the vivid physical descriptions, such as the tropical flowers growing on the compounds' walls or the state of the cab: _these_ things lend true authenticity to the story (as the sister's bright-coloured dress does wonderfully.).

Umbrage? I was relieving you of my bullshit on the subject. I may change my mind now. It's a good story Neil....I'll spare you my bullshit.....er Umbrage...

I know, it sucks doesn't it?

mississippi, most countries do shitty things to their children; in America, it's putting six-year-old girls into high heels and bikinis to be paraded at "beauty pageants" to earn big bucks, or, conversely, encouraging six-year-old boys to play Pee Wee league football, ensuring at least three surgeries on their ligaments, and potentially crippling them, before they're sixteen. Don't be too quick to judge other cultures by your own standards. You may find that those cultures find _us_ barbaric and 'medieval'. It was Paul, I think, who said we look through a mirror, darkly. Culture is relative, and must be treated thusly. [%sig%]

Actually, I'm American, too. Shhh! Don't tell anyone...

I hardly think your examples of 'shittiness' are in any way equivalent to the maiming of babies, or indeed anybody. I am not being 'quick' to judge either, it is a judgement I've made over a lifetime. The standards aren't 'mine' either they are the standards adopted by the entire civilised world, and whether or not countries that indulge in child-maiming see us as barbaric is of no importance to me personally as I believe they have forfeited their right to judge others by their own actions. Before you give me a lecture about those maimed and killed in military actions by western countries I can tell you that I AM aware of such sadnesses, but I don't believe that they are deliberate acts of harm against children per se, but of the tyranical leadership of those countries. If ALL countries, including the western allies, behaved themselves, military action wouldn't be necessary, BUT the child-maiming has nothing to do with military might, and everything to do with ignorance and over breeding.

I like that word....Umbrage....I'm going to use it every day for a week. The Cowboys out here won't know what the hell I'm saying.

Er, has it occurred to any of you that it might be a true story? That's how I read it. Gentle and interesting although the end was predictable.

Of course it might be real, although one notes that the subtitle indicates it isn't. I would still cringe at the thought of an ethnocentric Western tourist rattling off a list of what he believes is wrong with someone else's country, unprovoked. Western-centred cultural arrogance didn't end with the Raj, you know.

Hegemony is so deeply embedded it's unnoticeable by the majority and will never ever end. The thought that you confused it with hedgemonger had me choking on my tea in hilarity though, so thanks for that. After doing battle in Woolworths and Claires Accessories, it was just what I needed. Where did you cut n paste that definition from? It's not very user friendly...

Thanks everyone for the most extensive feedback I've ever had on a story, and there's a lot for me to reflect on pertaining to writing about places I visit as a tourist! The basic theme of the story - offering over the odds in animals for a wife - I've read before somewhere, though it wasn't set in West Africa. It's not "true" as such, though there are aspects of real Gambian people and situations I've incorporated. I find that, particularly in the "Third World", people are ALWAYS asking you what you think about their country; the narrator's certainly being insensitive but he's talking to an educated, well-dressed man with experience of the West who genuinely wants to know.

My goodness! I don't believe I mentioned military action by western countries, did I? I didn't have to. That wasn't the point of discussion... mississippi, there are many ways to maim a child: turning a first-grader into a sexual object/commodity to win prizes for the parents is no less damaging psychologically than is maiming a child physically so s/he has a way to eke out a meagre existence on the fringes of society. I do agree with your comment about the caste system; it is, indeed the caste system that forces people to desperate measures in order to eat. But that has little to do with India's government, which I believe is the world's largest democracy, btw. Culture changes are very, very slow; the caste system has been in place since the Aryan raiders crossed into India/Pakistan about 3-4,000 years-plus ago. Just try to change a system that old in one presidential term! I am dismayed by your use of the term 'civilised countries': let's keep in mind that the 'civilised' countries are the ones who, through various insidious economic policies, keep the rest of the 'uncivilised' world in a state of dire poverty and massive national debt, leading the 'tyrannical' leaders of said countries to focus only on repaying their debt to the World Bank by funnelling money from social and civil infrastructures, leading the citizens of said uncivilised and obviously backward countries to be forced to maim their children in order to eat. Who are the wrongdoers then? Again, your comment about 'overbreeding' overlooks the very real plight of women in these countries, who have little say over their own physicality, let alone sexuality. I would suggest you channel your disgust at the overbreeders of the world into supporting women's education in developing countries; when women have control over their own reproductive rights then many, many things will change. You are certainly entitled to your opinions about the world; I have mine, as well, but a little in-depth research into the subject you feel most vehement about can be quite enlightening. [%sig%]

Perhaps you are right, neil_the_auditor, but "What do you think about my country?", in most cases, doesn't include the most private and taboo parts of one's culture..., unless they're plastered all over billboards like ours are, in which case they are ripe for criticism. Brideprices and dowries usually make for interesting conversation, however: I had some friends from the Dinka tribe who used to love telling me stories about trading in their favourite cows for ungrateful wives (and in the case of multiple wives, the infighting). I did like your story, though! [%sig%]

Having just been scolded for being a 'stroppy owd bugger' for my last post I would appreciate it if readers would feed through the 'nice and soft' filter before replying.

archergirl, I have to debate your claim that entering young girls into beauty pagents and such is all that damaging. While, it appears to me that this may be considered superficial and not of much substance, long term, I don't think it has any negative effect on the child. Working in my office is a former Miss Colorado from the Miss USA pagent, she doesn't seem to have any trouble. She's an intelligent and obviously pretty woman, and I don't think she suffers from any serious emotions problems that I've observed for the past 10 years. I'm also quite sure she would differ with your opinion on the subject.

Thank you Denver, for illustrating my point so inoffensively. Do you have any people suffering from parental disfigurement with equally 'damaging' problems? (I'm still feeling a bit grumpy)

radiodenver, if a teen-age or older woman wishes to choose this type of competition for herself, that is fine, providing she is well-informed as to the type of objectification she is likely to be party to. I'm talking about children; they have no choice but to obey the parents' wishes. I've researched these types of pageantries, and notwithstanding the competitiveness of the parents for their children to 'win', which, if the child loses, can be quite devastating to them (not only have they 'lost' but they have disappointed their parents, which is much worse); this in itself I find disgusting, but putting VERY young children into little bikinis and high heels, foofing their hair up into hairsprayed monstrosities, and plastering them with makeup befitting Tammy Faye Bakker, can do nothing but damage. I have two small children, and it is my absolute wish that they remain children for the duration of their childhoods; there is plenty of time to grow up, and I have no intention of forcing them to sing songs and dance whilst scantily-dressed so I can win 1500 bucks for my trip to Vegas. Miss Colorado can differ with me as she wishes, as can you. And I must point out that the personae we experience in a working environment do not reflect the deepest hearts of us. We wear many masks. Work is only one of them. [%sig%]

And, ole Miss, the governments of India have had programmes to try and stop this, but you're missing the point of my argument entirely, which is that culture changes do not happen because the government, _any_ government, wills it. Look at Prohibition: did it stop drinking? Did Stalin and ensuing Communist governments keep people from having religious beliefs? Unless the government is good enough to give the people other, better options, things won't change. Culture develops as an adaptation to the environment that human beings inhabit; conversely, the environment is also shaped by the culture to a great extent. When impoverished people are no longer impoverished then child-maimings will stop. It's as simple as that. And no, in the largest sense parents are not 'forced' to maim their children, but I think they know far better than you or I what the likely prospects of their children are, and perhaps this is simply a result of a difficult choice between giving their children some kind of option for survival, or watching yet another of their children die of starvation. I wouldn't want to be in this situation, nor would you, I'm sure, but instead of railing about the tyrannical governments and how superior our culture is because we don't _physically_ maim our children (though god knows sitting them in front of a telly to watch Strictly Come Dancing must be some kind of maiming) I would simply ask you to consider the plight of the world from a slightly different perspective, e.g. one with a little compassion for those who do not have the luxury of debating the state of their existence on a writing forum. [%sig%]

And btw, the plight of women in developing countries is NOT only a problem for the governments of the respective countries. It's OUR problem, too. One world, one people, man.

Quite right, Archergirl; a lot of the awful things in Africa and India, for example, stem from poverty and ignorance, and whilst it's right and proper for governments to outlaw these things they won't disappear unless the root causes are tackled. On the TV last night people who tuned in to watch the "Vicar Of Dibley" comedy found that the show ended on the serious issue of AIDS in Africa, so I'm perfectly comfortable bringing up serious social issues in writing which is meant to be entertaining. One of the finest pieces of news I heard in 2004 was the girl from India whose prospective in-laws were screwing her family for a bigger and bigger dowry. In the end she went to the police (dowries are technically illegal), filed a case and the wedding was called off. End result? She was inundated with offers of marriage from men who didn't want any dowry whatsoever. BTW I believe that George (Missi) writes from the anger of compassion, on this thread at least.

Of course he does, neil_the_auditor, I do see where his anger stems from: it's just that it's misdirected or, dare I say, a bit myopic; it's like shooting the messenger for carrying the message. And as I said in my previous comments about this story of yours which has fomented such discussion, addressing social issues in writing is absolutely fine and certainly commendable; but, being anthropologically trained, the way it's presented in the context of the story leaves me a little uncomfortable. Call me a purist. But no one has to agree with me; blessedly, we still live in relatively free countries. xx [%sig%]

Did I say somewhere I was 'angry'? You see archergirl, you do exactly the same as everyone else, you twist things out of shape until they fit your shoes. YOU are also missing MY point. Culture changes rarely occur without the support and indeed certain legislation provided by the relevant government. You need look no further than Britain, where over the last fifty years the government HAS brought about changes in culture by the introduction of laws banning all kinds of racist and cultural prejudice. I accept that these changes are not practised by everyone but if the ground rules are enshrined in law eventually the population grow to acknowledge them. That will be the case regarding smoking in Ireland, foxhunting in England and using a mobile phone whilst driving. Do you really believe that de-segregation in America in the sixties would have occurred without the force of law to impose it on the southern states? (Making flippant remarks about TV programmes does nothing to reinforce your argument as far as I can see.)

Ah, you must be a fan of the show, then. Too bad. Must've stung. I'm not sure you've ever been to the South (with a nom de plume of 'mississippi' however, one might think so, in which case your arguments are even more unbelievable), but segregation _does_ still exist, only in very subtle, unspoken ways, mostly economic, as it does in Britain. Governments don't change cultures, people do. If you think that banning smoking is going to stop people from lighting up, you're being naive. Smoking is _increasing_ among young people and women, even in your so-called 'civilised world'. [%sig%]

Hmm, your judgement and assessment of my proclivities are the only thing unbelievable here my dear. I have never seen the programme you mentioned, in fact I rarely watch any TV. It didn't sting at all, in fact I couldn't care less about TV, I commented because you chose to introduce a pointless aside designed to make you look more discerning than I believe you are. I visit the Deep South of America as often as possible and was there two months ago actually. OK, you know best about the segregation issue, nothing has changed. I don't think the Irish government was trying to stop people smoking, they just don't want them doing it in particular places. Your assertion is wrong, whatever your 'anthropology' training tells you. For an illustration, how many people do you see smoking on trains, planes and subways since it was outlawed? NONE that's how many. So it seems that there has been a cultural change there as a result of legislation. I shall not post further on this thread as this forum is supposed to be about writing, if you wish to continue this joust you will find me on the General Discussion forum. Thank you.

neil_the_auditor, I sure liked your story! ;-)

Having lived in Gambia for three years, I feel Neil has managed to achieve howt this culture value their possessions... Well done Neil - yet another winner

This is good. I see that Neil has become the local pub. Lets debate any subject until nauseated, then mention that we like Neil's story. I'll giv'r a go. Did I miss anything? Oh....beauty queen kids.....oh....That's right...Making 7 year old girls dress up and enter beauty/talent/???? competition will scar them for life, only of course, if they loose....the trauma of not being the best at everything will turn the child into....what? Archer....personally, I think there are far worse things in life for a child than to loose a beauty contest. How about haviing drunkard parents or sexual abusers. Lets start a new charity cause....save the 7 year old beauty contest loosers. This whole subject stinks of superfluous lack of knowledge. Oh, Neil....I still liked your story.

Oh, denver, you missed my point, too. Your reply smacks of 'duh'. zzzzzzz *snore*. Go write a poem or sumfink; join Ole Miss on the other threads, instead.

I didn't miss the point, I ignored it. I'm being nice to Miss, he doesn't need me egg'n him on. Oh, I don't write poetry either.

Rita, You're the opposite side of the coin you hate.

Funny, I thought this was a discussion about Neil_the_auditor's story and associated topics, not about why ritawrites' writing is always getting cherry-picked...