Who made me the token, vocal Cristian!

I am at the beginning stages (I think) of my personal walk with Jesus Christ. I've gone to church nearly every Sunday of my life, yet I failed to ultimately believe any of it. Of course I thought I believed it until about a year ago when my science teacher was explaining evolution, etc. I also read articles that explains the origins of religion, what Christianity was "derived" from, etc. So I practically abandon the faith (while still attending church) A coupla 'mazing events occured so, now I am a firm believer again. I am willing to follow Jesus blindly. I'm sure none of you are surprised to hear me say that, seeing I live in the Bible belt! I think I'm about where you are too, Mark. All I have really accepted thus far is that Jesus is alive and is working in my life. The morality issue -- I'm still struggling with. I think much of it was put in the Bible to show how imperfect human beings really are, but shows a lifestyle to strive for.

Hi Vicky, It might seem like I knew the answer to many of your questions but I was mostly guessing. There were a lot of strange coincidences - about a month after I finished the story new evidence was found that material from comets might not all burn up in the atnosphere and so life may have reached up from a comet. I had seen Lilyth as the inspiration for Hansel and Gretel a sort of evil witch but in the end I understood her and I would have liked to explain her point of view better - that she would rather kill her children than let them live as slaves (I believe some zoo animals will not breed in captivity). In the end the story wrote me as much as I wrote it and I'm still not sure what Adam should do. I'm not much of a writer but I have a vivid imagination - I could use help with style and punctuation etc. I have been working on a book related to Lord Of The Rings and I'm finding the research very tiring. Thank you for all your help and encouragement Vicky. Mike.

*comes wandering out of the cold, rubbing hands together and blinks against the bright light* 'Where the hell am I?' *Spies Mark in the corner on a soapbox and recoils* 'Oh no, I've been here before! Read the book! Seen the movie! Bought the T-shirt!' *Runs like buggery for the door before Mark spies him and starts a row* *Outside in the cold night air, leans against the wall breathing heavily and looks at the bright star in the sky as he realises he's had a narrow escape*

Yeah moslems have some great ideas don't they. They treat their women like bits of crap, they bury them in sand and stone 'em to death or stage public beheadings for adultery, which incidentally takes two; where are the other participants when the blood flows? They stage kamikaze murders. And then they say it's ok because it's their religion. As I've said before, now you know why I'm an atheist!

I'm an ex-catholic (you can hear the creaky old issues there rubbing themselves together in that purple papal trunk in the attic can you?). My mother became a born again Christian after my father was paralysed in an accident. Strange time to believe in a God but nevertheless, it has given her enormous comfort in great adversity. I know that may sound simplistic but I do envy Mark his belief. It obviously makes him happy and most the Christians I have met through my parents have had a sort of glow about them, whereas I simply have an evil, sceptical glint in my eye. I do think that I live a christian life but with a small 'c'. At least I hope I do........

i'm just hoping that the way that you live your life and treat others holds more impact than attending any church. seems to me that a huge amount of so called christians (and non christians) live a hypocritical life. if going to church every sunday can absolve you of any responsibility irl, then its all a sham. i too wish that i could rid myself of any worry and doubt about "what comes next" and so envy anyone that can have a faith they truly believe in. i just wish i could. *been here before*

I have faith in the fact that nothing I do will ever matter... so I cant make any major mistakes. I have no responsibilty because there is nothing I can do that will ever effect anything important. I could screw my life up and it wont matter in the slightest. I could cure cancer and it wouldnt matter. I could bring humans into a utopian era of peace and plenty and it wouldnt matter. Ill probably go for option one though, the others are too much effort. With this whole God thing, if he really exists and is all loving etc then he would love me whether I believe in him or not. I choose not to because I find the whole idea distressing... and cos Im too lazy to go to church. I didnt just come to this conclusion randomly, when I was younger I was forced to go to church so I decided to see if it was worth it. I read the whole of the bible, I talked to my local vicar (methodist), I wrote a hymn, took part in services and, at my peak, actually wrote a service for... I forget, it was some kinda special 'church' day. This was all when I was about 13/14. I concluded that the whole thing was a bit of a waste of my time and it was all a bit silly. Since then I have analysed it on a number of occasions, I have read up on all of the major philosophical arguments, I have analysed the 'Problem of Evil', I continue to talk to everyone about it and I have even had Jehovah's Witless's running from my house because they couldnt stand me talking at them for long (I have that effect, can you tell I like talking?) and they didnt want to be converted :D. I have never found anything satisfying, I have come to the conclusion that you either have 'Gods Grace' (tm) and believe or you are an Athiest like me.

I watched my mother struggle with inordinate amounts of pain and distress for weeks before she died. And I saw her receive last rights (annointing of the sick) and grow calm as if a great weight had been lifted off her, without increasing her drugs or treatment in any way. It's the most incredible thing I've ever witnessed and I wish I had half her faith. The trouble is that faith is like a mother's love. You can't see or touch it, you just know it's there. Or you know it's not.

That's very ambitious Mike, Unfortunately I can't help you with that story.... I never got past the birthday party in that book. I see Tolkein in the same vein as I see Dickins or Hardy. Brilliant storyteller, great imagination, but terrible writer. Reading his work is too much like hard work. Still good luck and let me know how you're getting on Vicky

Hypocrisy is a big theme in the Catholic Church, where absolution is on tap and the 'holiest' are often the most spiritually bereft. I don't attend church. My grandmother was a staunch Catholic; she had pictures of her beloved Pope up on so many walls her house looked like a teenager's bedroom. Yet she used to kick dogs, put the piano down on my hands and use her wooden spoon more times than Delia, to stir up as much trouble and emotional distress as she could. Another member of my family is a very devout Christian but regularly bonks his employees. I look at the person, not the religious label; it does not impress me per se. Mark happens to be a particularly nice chap who well represents the Christian faith. Some of the others should be burnt at the stake.....

Sorry, Vicki...your posting wasn't there when I started to write mine. I am so very glad that your mother had such a comfort...it must have given her peace.

I expect that many people were put off by the style and sheer size of Lord Of The Rings but I'm sure that the 3 films - the first of which is just out - will reach, and spellbind, a whole new audience. I reckon I have about 5 years to finish the sequel - I'm probably too lazy! Maybe somebody else might though...

Hi Friends! This is the Right Reverend Doctor Billy Saul Hargis of the First Church of the Gooey Death and Discount House of Worship, broadcasting to you from Holy Land USA, the world’s first Religious Amusement Park, located in Beautiful Downtown Del Rio, Texas, the Golden Buckle of the Bible Belt. Put your hands on the radio and feel the warmth of Jesus flowing right straight on through to you. Friends, have you ever wondered how it is that Jesus can sit up there at the right hand of God, and watch all the war and the famine and the pestilence on this earth, and not do a damn thing about it? Friends, it’s because he’s wrecked out of his mind! That’s right! He’s high on Holy Dope! That’s right, Friends! Holy Dope! Now, for a limited time and a limited time only, you too can get High with HIM, that’s right, get High with HIM, Just send you tax deductible donations to …… And Friends! After you receive your Holy Dope, you’ll be interested in some Christian company, yessir you will, I know it! So, for a limited time and a limited time only, for an additional donation of one hundred dollars, you can get a three-month subscription to Doctor Hargis’ Heavenly Body Dating Service. That’s right, Friends! Just what you always wanted, someone who will walk with HIM, talk with HIM, and jump into the sack with YOU! Send your tax deductible donations to ….. And Friends! If you believe you have transgressed somewhere along the line, do not fret, do not worry, do not tremble in fear of your immortal soul. Doctor Hargis has just what you need! A Holy Mop. That’s right! A Holy Mop. For a limited time and a limited time only, you can receive your very only Holy Mop and sweep the sin out of your house. Please send you tax deductible donations to ……… (Don Imus radio bits, early 1970s, WNBC NYC, reconstructed from memory) I just couldn't resist. Not mocking the Lord, mind you, rather mocking the two-bit self-styled Christian phonies I've know over the years. For the record, though I personally believe that the historical Christ was a glorified con man, and that the Christian religion as practiced by the typical hypocrite and various organized "church" manifestations of same are barely beyond the level of a real estate scam, I still have a profound faith in a power greater than myself. In fact, I take that faith so seriously that I refuse to allow it to be corrupted by a bunch of con men and mind-control numbnuts with their dirtbag rap. There's a lot of foul bilge in religion in the U.S. I have found it to be much the same here, just not so commercialized. Still, redemption is a powerful force that propels me on a daily basis. It just does not come from listening to self-serving claptrap coming from people out to hype their own pathetic little scam. Dig and Thou Shall Be Dug. (Lord Buckley, 1950s)

an entertaining sermon, Easty. have you considered the priesthood? these days, i understand that you don't have to believe in God to be a member.

The size of the book doesn't bother me.... I'm a quick reader. My record is war and peace in 42 hours. In all honesty I could force myself to read TLOTR, treat it like research, but where's the fun in that?

Justyn In the words of the late great Chet Baker. ‘You’re a swinging Cat'. And a fine writer. Ralph

Comes wandering in out of the cold, rubbing hands together, blinking against the bright light and wondering where Mississippi is. I'm sure I saw him come through this door. Blimey! Oh oh. I'm not getting drawn into this one, Mark.

Vicky, My guess is that once you get past Rivendell you will have to force yourself to put the book down. It does start slowly - it was not really meant for todays short attention spans - but once it has built it's foundations then it builds structures of great beauty, joy and sadness while remaing always true to it's own intrinsic reality.... What I means is ..... a thumping good read!

So you're not too keen on religion then Justyn? Your parodies above remind me of nights spent, as a youngster, listening under the sheets to Radio Luxembourg. There was an American Forces show that featured Garner Ted Armstrong, a holy-roller, fire and brimstone preacher that held me spell-bound. Not by his religion you understand, but by the way he preached, I am reminded of it now by the 'preaching' interlude in Neil Diamond's 'Brother Loves Travelling Salvation Show'. I couldn't wait to hear him although I never listened to him for a second. 'They were pushing the Naz to hear his miracle lick' (Also Lord Buckley) One of my heroes.

Thank you Wolfgirl, Interstingly enough I have always held your view on the hypocracy of the Catholic Church. I stopped practicing at 18 for pretty much that reason. I never believed my mum to be perfect and I called her a hypocrite for going to mass when she didn't go to confession, and told her that the other members of the congregation were just as bad if not worse. The one and only time she ever responded to all this was by asking me quietly if I was sure I had the right to judge other people. I found out after she died that the reason she stopped going to confession was because as a nurse she was required to assist in operations not acceptable to the Church such as sterilisations and terminations, and when asked if she wanted absolution for these "sins" she said no. Just one of the many couragous acts in her life. The many other things I've found out about her since her death have made me realise that though she was far from perfect, she was a "christian" Christian. Although she lived it in a quiet way and never forced her opinions on other people. She never judged me for stopping practicing though it must have hurt her, and I had no right to judge her in such a brattish way.

Okay. okay. I've got a copy on my bookshelf. I'll take it down, dust it off and try again. ...but no promises okay?

Okay Vicky. As to your dad - even the best of us have feet of clay. Sad, but true. With luck we gradually learn to expect less from others and more from ourselves until we end up letting ourselves down more than anyone else - then we learn humility and finally we are truely ready to accept God!

When did we start talking about my dad? *confused*

When I was younger I wondered why no one ever wrote books with the answer to life in them. As I matured I realised that they had - it was just that I had been unable to understand them! Your attitude and understanding will change with age CM. Experience cannot be replaced by intelligence and wisdom cannot be read - it is gained. As for mississippi's stonings and public beheadings for adultery - I'm not sure if they really do that but if they do I expect there isn't much adultery going on. The Americans used to have 'Sky Pilots' who were clergy who used to bless the planes and their crew before they went to blow up the Vietnamese - nobody argues that Christianity condones bombing helpless individuals. Stalin probably killed more than most and he was an atheist like you missi. A lot of the real attrocities in life are commited by people who only believe in themselves.

hey! good news! galileo has been forgiven for telling the truth. bless them...

Are you developing a speech impediment dog? (dogthtar?) Yes, a few popes back now. Strange really since Einstein had finally proved that they had been right all along and the sun did go around the earth. * I bet that's controversial *

I was brought up as a Roman Candle by mostly Irish priests who told us we were Cat Licks. We had our weekly doses of dogma and guilt but it made us special somehow. I think if Christ came back today He might make at least one important change - when He got to the "This is my blood bit." again - He would choose milk, or Cola instead of wine. Apart from the very large endorsement fee to feed the poor - perhaps there would be far less alcholics without their "Magic Ale" excuse.

Some of my favourite writers now seen as staunch Christians were once members of ‘The Golden Dawn’ along with ‘The Great Beast’ Alistair Crowley. It is hard to imagine C S Lewis being anything other than Christian with his ‘Aslan’ - the son of The Great Magician - so obviously a metaphor for Christ. I wonder if Lewis, Tolkein and others learned from their exposure to Crowley’s ‘black magic’ and used their experiences to strengthen their Christianity and deepen their understanding of faith? Regardless of the influence of Crowley - certainly the influence of Buddhism can be felt in both writers work and their work is all the better for it. Perhaps in the end the aims and practises of a religion are more important than its dogma. Tolerance, compassion and brotherly love are probably far more important than what name you give to God. Less hubris and greed, more wisdom and caring about others, bucketfuls of love and this could be a world we could be proud of whatever our creed.

dogstar, you talk about the system being fallible.. in comparison to what? An infallible system? where? This is just another way of saying you have faith in God or Perfection. To follow the thread of your argument, if nothing were ever excluded from any system of knowledge you would reach the conclusion that everything is God or God is everything (the universe).. quite close to my belief actually. Also believe that the Universe is not static.. it is literally creating new forms, new meaning, new spirit, new universe every day, what us humans do being part of this process in a small way.. so even though God is everything today.. he is till in the process of becoming.. So I would say then, this leads to the universe today being perfect (as in the unique sense) and that we can all absolve ourselves of past guilt and 'what ifs' and thus free ourselves to concentrate on turning our visions into tomorows reality.. (of course many would say, I am on another planet here). Its quite easy to flip from a philosophy of 'nothing matters' to 'everything matters' in my experience. The above is a system of faith.. so what is faith? Having faith does not require explanation, it is a choice.. as someone who has faith will try and explain to you faith does not require reason.. it is the diametric opposite of reason.. reason being a distillation of your personal experience.. all that you known and have learnt). My argument is simply this.. Imagine each person as a cone of experience stretching from infancy, his accumulated knowledge being some kind of distillation of his experience which by the way includes indirect experience too... for example, if his breadth of experience and processed knowledge does not encompass aspects of biological cause and effect he will rely on faith to explain eg instances of disease or misfortune that befall him.. that is, faith, is a step outside his cone of experience to deal with the real and actual world of causes and effects around him.. Now the argument goes, the more possesed of an 'enquiring mind' you have the less you will rely on faith as a system of explanation for everyday causes and effects.. It also goes without saying that the more you learn the more you realise how much more there is to know that is outside your cone of experience.. hence faith always comes into play (certainly for the question: why do we exist).. in fact to deny the necessity of faith to the human condition is to deny that you breathe.. Wisdom is accepting that faith and reason are opposite parts of the human coin, yet always being open to an expansion of reason: Reason being a measure of what you are, faith being the rest. I hope this makes sense to some, it does not always to me when I write it down.. and I hope it is not entirely irrelevant to the relative authenticity of the bible debates..

i would love to hear a christian writer's defence of the bible as a text subject to a system of language...

Science refutes the biblical account of Genesis and infers that the Bible is a collection of myths created to comfort primitive men. No one seems to wonder how, perhaps 10,000 years before Darwin, these primitive men could have known life started in the sea. What a lucky guess to get the order of Creation almost spot on and to culminate with the arrival of man on the 6th ’day’. Any explainations from the atheists?

i thought this thread was about RELIGION.... since when had RELIGION anything to do with FAITH? oops oops

oh, and... i would love to hear a christian writer's defence of the bible as a text subject to a system of language...

Hi everyone! Gosh you've been busy! The bible is still the best selling book in the world. The first gospel was written aroun20 years after the death of Jesus. The reason why those 4 gospels were kept in were that they were the closest, from oral testemonies, of the truth of the life of Jesus. The Dead sea scrolls showed what an accurate copy of the old testament we have. The Bible is known as the inspired word of God. Man's interpretation, as usual can be fallible. Garden of Eden? Myth or truth. Dunno, know Jesus though. Says I am the truth, the way, and the life. Over 10 years found that to be practically, tangibly, true. I am created, God is the creator. I find it wonderfully presumptious when created beings justify their non need of the `whatever` that created them. That's sounds a much more incredible fauith to believe in. My faith has to be true to me, to reason and my intellect. However it is the `Spirit` that enlightens, the Spirit comes when Jesus is Glorified. The above is just a `personal` belief statement and not meant to be seen as some kind of `knowledge`.

hypothetically... you are an editor with at least 58 gospels to choose from... you pick only four, two of which are so alike as to comprise much extraneous material... you lock the other 54 gospels in a vault for 2 thousand years... some of which allude to the fact that women were actually more instrumental in Jesus's activities than the dominant patriarchy would care to admit to... gosh, what ARE you afraid of?

i think you'll also find that god created us man and woman both in his image... according to ONE of the multiple creation myths in the old testament... (of course the O.T. is not the work of Christian authors though)... it's funny how god created man AND woman both but woman still got a pretty raw deal from old mother church in the last 2 thousand years...

Come on then Mark - since you have decided to be the token, vocal Christian - see if you can satisfy dogstar! *thinks - I might have phrased that better*

It must have been another thread when he warned you not to use the wings because of the inferior wax. Of course I might have been refering to your piece that was in the last 10 at the time - or it might all be drivel:-)

I was never raised to follow any particular religion, my parents always took the attitude that these things were up to us to decide. So I've never been to Church, except for a wedding when I was a wee bairn, at which I fell asleep. I'm not really an atheist as such, but I believe God (or a god of some description) is there regardless of what we think, so I let him get on with it. My best friend, on the other hand, is one step away from being Evangelical, and firmly thinks we need to be down on our knees every Sunday singing hymns, and we often have late-night arguments about the existence of God, Jesus and Co. The closest we came to compromising was that God doesn't need us, but we need him. I think that's pretty true of most objects of faith. My point is (I think) that regardless of what you believe, how you act, and whether or not you go to Church every week, God is always gonna be there for you in some form, which is why people snort crack and beat their kids monday - friday, then sit in Church with a clear conscience. The belief that we will be forgiven for our sins is probably more important that actually being forgiven. Um...I'm starting to confuse myself...I'll stop now

I once heard a comic say that God created man first and then woman because HE never makes the same mistake twice. On a more serious note, though, I don't think there are that many theologians or historians who would seriously debate the fact that a man named Jesus, the Rabbi lived at that time and died in that way. It's documented over and over again...and not just through the NT. The real question comes down to who he actually was. Islam agrees he was probably a prophet, Judaism agrees that he was alive, but an ordinary Rabbi albeit with forethinking ideas...(check out the Mishnah and the oral tradition) It's only Christianity which believes he was/is the son of God. And that has to be a leap of faith because every thing that Jesus said about being the misiah could be taken metaphoriacally. Of course the whole idea is that Christ has shown us the truth through the Holy Spirit, so we know the truth and everyone else is just kidding themselves. To be honest I don't know the answer but I envy anyone who does. Faith can move mountains....I've seen it.

Decline to comment further as Mykle is obviously joking.

The church over the centuries has shown us consistently, the worst excesses of man and the highest aspirations, and despite all it's endeavours to rip it from God, God's spirit still manages to permeate. I revel in my need of God, for me the revelation that I was not the beginning and end of the universe was a burden lifting wonder. I am a unique expression of God, we all are. Yet two thirds of the world are living in abject, misery, povert etc. In the richest countries, there are no plumblines of morality, and Materialism, at heart has a hold of us all. Left to our own devices, we screw it up beautifully. So where is God? The one who created this beautiful earth, that we are so desperate to screw up..... Always waiting to reveal his grace if we are willing to take that step forward and admit our need of Him. Not blind Him with our intelligence, He's got more, Not impress Him with our `good` heart, He is love, no... he's waiting to reveal His love, that's all...

Re Aridayle's comment 'God doesn't need us, we need Him', I refer you all to Randy Newman's 'That's Why I love Mankind'...

The original transcripts of the Bible still survive. There are some arguements over what the original authors meant (hence the denominations), but overall, nothing has been altered over the years.

when one hears that there are over fifty gnostic gospels that have not made it into the west's dominant religious canon, one has to wonder why... the logical conclusion of course is that a body of people acting in an authoritarian capacity have an agenda. the keyword is IGNORANCE - that is, do not give people access to everything that has gone before because it is either overwhelming, irrelevant, or threatening. which ever way, some person somewhere decides what texts make it to me or you. these texts of course create our concepts of life and death, of morality, of heaven and hell, of love and hate etc, and thus constitute their own veritable power of god - able to shape and mis-shape us by what we are and are not given... but the word has no fixed meaning. it exists prior to our being born, the language system predating us... thus for the word of god to be given us, it has to be at the mercy of that same system... fallible. no?

Nothing much may have been altered, but there was a hell of a lot left out. The Dead Sea Scrolls for instance. Bear in mind that the Bible was written and edited by politicians about 200 years after Jesus' death.

MARK... how much of what you believe came straight from God and was not at the mercy of some person perverting the message?

I thought I said I wasn't getting involved in this one.

to say nothing of translations... contemporary translations aren't too hot on the king james vision of women as witches here and there... somone possibly thinks it might hurt sales, now that women have been given the vote. bloody progress...

God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky." God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. Then God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over all the earth. I have never been convinced that birds are decended from dinosaurs - only time will tell if, in fact, birds were the first creatures to leave the sea. I would not be surprised.