Skin Crawlers

There are groups similar to EST - enpowerment and instant enlightenment plus VAT!

I have felt humbled reading this thread.. and thankful I have so far been lucky in that I have had little cause to hate anyone as much as some of you have described... Betrayal by those that 'love' you.. Who should have known better.. but did not and still don't.. that is the hardest thing to forgive. And its ok to walk away.. but after you have given them every chance to make good. Because sometimes its they, who should come around, to come to terms with their actions, to grow.. and learn from their mistakes. But leave the door open.. just in case they make that leap.. after all it is possiblle.. For Gods sake, it has to be within the realms of possibility that people can come round.. otherwise it would be a very sad world indeed. But the responsibility is theirs, not yours... yours is to leave the door slightly ajar. I agree with Missi, that esp now we are adults.. we should take responsibility for our half of a relationship.. even with those who tormented us when we were in their power. By taking responsibility of our half we negate theirs and perhaps in time even dictate them to them and help them on their spiritual journey. It is amazing how much we can 'bring people along' if we are that bit smarter about ourselves.. get them to behave a bit better than they did yesterday.

Sounds scarey Can't I just punch him?

Doesn't sound like you need empowering to me ;-)

Vicky You must own your anger, that is the only way to deal with it. Ralphie

Okay, don't think I don't appreciate this guys but I just don't know what you all mean. How do I gain understanding, empower or disempower, or own my anger? Basically I want to kill the bastard...this is not a healthy attitude so I havn't been in the same room with him for 3 years, this is also not healthy so I let him phone me...this unfortunately makes me physically sick at worst and shaky/skin crawly at best. Still not healthy... so what do I do? In english? And I don't think Yoga will help. If I'm comming across as a cross ol' unapprecative bitch I'm sorry... I'm having a rough week one way or the other. Thanks guys Vickyx

Vicky, I can tell you hurt a lot and it's none of my business why or how, but what I do know is that it's very destructive to hate. You say your dad hurt you a lot but he probably hurts too. The only way of dealing with it is to confront your feelings and recognise the causes. I hate it when I hear of people who should love each other having problems. I've had my share of that, my eldest son wouldn't speak to me for four years, partly because he didn't know how to say sorry, eventually his life fell apart and he nearly lost his home and he had a breakdown. My wife had to go get him in the middle of the night and he threw his arms round me and cried like a baby, he was 26yrs old and could only say sorry when he fell apart at the seams. That was 2yrs ago and since then we've rebuilt a relationship of sorts and the hurting has died away. Unless there's a serious reason for avoiding him I would advise you to build bridges while you can. (And I won't get upset if you tell me to mind my own business)

ok vicky.... i think that you may feel more powerful, if you accept that you are angry with your dad. try and get to the reason why he makes you feel this way, and if there is no other way to deal with that, then next time he rings, you say to him " actually, when you ring me, i dont like it. i'd prefer for the time being, if we cut down on contact, and when i am ready, i will call you." that way, you are bringing a certain power balance, towards yourself. It becomes your responsibility, and cuts down on the occasions, substantially, that he could make you feel the way he does. Was that better? :o)

No I'm grateful for some advice I can understand Mississippi. He has regrets, he carries demons. I know that and I feel sorry for him. I think the problem is that I never did anything wrong, the only thing I ever did was love him and he destroyed that. I'm not too proud to say i'm sorry if I'm wrong Missus, It gets easier the more you say it. But i'mnot the one who was wrong, so I feel like I can't make it right. Does that make any sense?

Much better Liana, thanks. Can I add another worm? His wife, Elaine is lovely. She's never done anything to hurt me and I don't want to hurt her. I'm afraid that if I confront him it will cause her pain because he's too weak to take it himself.

then tell her why you are doing it, and assure her that it no way reflects on her. thats fine....

You're already doing the right thing by talking to people about it. The more you talk about it, the better you can deal with it (NB: Be careful who you talk to - strangers you'll never meet/see again and very good friends who like you no matter what you say are ideal) It may help you figure out why you feel this way - different perspectives are great for this kind of thing. Get an answerphone, screen calls and don't feel obliged to talk to him unless you want to. Don't feel guilty about this - you have to look after yourself and there's a reason for feeling the way you do. Maybe you just need some time to figure it out. Try sitting down and writing a list of everything you associate with him (NB: this is for *you* - don't make it public!) This may help you find the cause of your feelings. If you already know what the cause is, writing it down in detail can help you rationalise it (helped me get over the *very* premature death of a friend so I know it can work) If you *want to*, tell him the way you feel - but again, don't feel obliged to. I had major issues with my dad, didn't speak to him for 2 years but now we get on well as the break gave me time to sort out what *I* thought about things. Iron pills are good if he makes you depressed. Alcohol is good to help you talk about it/cry loads/forget about it for a night! Hit a pillow pretending it's him -shout, scream, swear, cry whatever - try to let it out. And if he really made you feel that bad, remember, you don't need to see him or talk to him - you're an adult. You can make that choice. Hugs help a lot too. If you've got a mate who'll hug you tonight, give them a call.

No. There's no-one. My choice. Thanks Emily and Liana. You've helped.

A lesson I learned at an early age Vicky is that sometimes the innocent have to take the blame for the guilty. Perhaps you're the stronger person, and if that's the case, and you'd like to have the love of your father and to love him again, you may have to sacrifice any feeling of injustice to make that happen. Even if he was the one in the wrong you can make it right and you'll be a better person for it. If you do care about him but don't heal the wounds, one day he will die and your chance to make things right will be gone forever. Do you really want to live with that? Many's the time I said sorry to stop an escalating division. A lot of times when I knew I was right I still did the apologising because I also knew that if I didn't no one would! I did it a thousand times to save my crap marriage, and all to no avail, but I know in my heart it wasn't because I didn't try.

Lots of good advice Vicky! You have more friends than you know. Sometimes you just have to get through! You don't have to be perfect - no one is. Remember what I said about feet of clay? Everyone we look up to will let us down because no one is perfect. You are doing a great job dealing with it all - just persevere. God really does work in mysterious ways and it all comes out right in the end - just don't worry too much it only adds to the confusion. No one is an island nor should wish to be. Friends are people who share your troubles and who's troubles you share. Helping others with their problems somehow helps with yours - it gives you perspective and stops you becoming too introverted. Have faith in yorself from what you have shown it will be well warrented! Live long and prosper petal that your fragrance may linger. It is a pleasant perfume and pleases us all!

That's exactly what I'm afraid of Missus. Not long ago I posted a piece of an old journal i found (under fiction because the raw hate made me feel mean) and in it I had written that perhaps if he tried to be more the man I used to know i could forgive him. Well he has tried/is trying and I want to forgive him. I want to forgive him far more than you know, but saying the words doesn't make it true. Maybe it's because after a couple of years when he stopped fuk1ng with my mind my mum got sick and then she died and now I'm grieving and everything i feel for him is taking a back burner. It's too much to deal with all at once. I don't have time for anything except work and work. I can't sleep/ havn't slept properly for months, can't deal with a proper relationship because you have to work at that and I just don't have anything left inside me. And I'm so afraid that he will die without me having peace about this and that it'll haunt me forever. My mother died leaving me with no guilt at all and it's bloody hard enough...I don't know how I'll cope with him. But just so you know what type of man he is let me tell you that not long after my mother was diagnosed with cancer he rang me up and told me he had cancer too. It wasn't true. He just needed some attention...even negative attention. I've studied psycology I know why he did it, but what sort of man does that to his child? God it makes me angry just to think about it and that's nothing, NOTHING compared to some of the other ways he's screwed me over with his bloody mind games. Christ. I'm ranting now....

vicky ... it is strange to come across this thread tonight when i have been thinking about and writing about my own father ... and forgiveness ... i hope you can forgive him ... i really do ... because it will be so hard if (i mean when) he dies for you if it is all unresolved ... it's very important ...

Vicky, I wrote that car bit on the other thread just for you - in the hope that it might take your mind off your problems. The least you can do is to immediately write a 50 page essay on the probable pollution problems of the expanding car creature and its threat to the environment! Failing that - read Lord of he Rings again :-)

I know fish, i'll try...I'm just not sure how yet but I've got some stuff to go on now. Mike, thanks I'll keep it in mind...it could be a long night

Everybody wants to think of their parents as somehow being models of what we would like to be and it comes as a terrible shock to some of us to realise that they are human too, with all the frailties that we suffer from. They remind us too much of ourselves and we don't like it. It's no good burying yourself in work, you have to make time for your problems. You don't have any choice Vicky.

Actually I don't have any choice about the work either. i'm running a residential home, 16 elderly people and 12 staff (when they're not calling in sick like tonight) live in, I can't go out cause I'm on call...can't drink for the same reason. It won't be forever but right now I REALLY don't have time for anything personal...oops there goes a buzzer

Totally ratted but want to post this Vicky: Ironically, at least I think it’s ironic, that the other thread to which Vicky has been the greatest contributor “A Gift For Sunny_Day” ended with me ‘turning the corner’. I say I think it’s ironic because if I had continued it may have thrown some light on the present thread. I did arrive at my parents and I went into the living room and sat down. I had never got on well with my dad, several years before he had suffered a stroke and could not walk nor even talk much. I remember sitting on the settee still upset with tear streaming down my face - my father sensing my pain somehow managed to get out of his bed, which was in the living room, and staggered over to try and comfort me! I couldn’t speak, I just waved him away - it was too late and anyway no-one could have comforted me especially not him. I went upstairs to what had been my old bedroom and out of habit I sat crossed legged on the bed. I was so upset I could not be bothered to look at what my eyes were seeing and presently I was just faintly aware of a far distant scene. Suddenly my sight snapped to a different vista - I could see a brilliant light as though through the top of my head! It was as though my skull had opened up to let the light shine directly on my brain. All the things I had thought to be important were instantly irrelevant. I became full of light and life - friends still remind me of the months that followed when I ran everywhere full of the joy of life. I don’t remember how I lost it - I don’t really remember much about it at all. Only that for a while I had escaped doubt and for a while I was clear and without confusion. Before my dad died I spent many hours with him holding his hand. I wasn’t there at the end but I did not need to be - we had bridged the gap... I still feel incredibly lucky for that gift and though it’s a distant memory some songs remind me: I am you, as you are me, and we are all together; Love is all around us so just let the feeling grow, and All you need is Love! Someone loves us more that we can ever know.

Sorry Vicky. i didn't know you were on duty. I just felt that maybe I could ease the stress by proxy when really I was just looking for an excuse for myself! I hope I haven't made things worse. It's helped me to remember so I owe you one. Here I am I have returned and in this hell I too am burned. At least we are all in it together.

Sue, if you are reading this - I'm sorry I hasstled you about your smoking. I understand how difficult it can be.... Sorry Mickey!

Sometimes the more you try to make things better the worse it gets! I'm spending more time using 'backspace' than I am typing! Just know you are loved Vicky! Everything else will sort itself out with time - Let It Be. Time is the magician and he'll weave his spell for you. Que Sara Sara - what will be will be. You've probably guessed by now that I'm trying for the Guiness Book of Records most song titles in a ingle thread :-) Thank God it was only a half bottle of vodka!

By the way Missi can i go halves to the contract? Just to rid us of the workshop entries - only kidding :-) Have I sussed your sense of humour yet?

So you can't sleep either dear track suit;-) I rat thou art, A fool I be. Don't worry sweet You'll do for me.

Vicky - I have spent a great deal of my life hating my father. It is only as I've got closer to the age I really remember him being (thirty) that I realise that I'm nowhere near ready to be a parent and by the time my dad was that age, I was nine. We're never going to get on, probably never going to see each other again, but I was able to write to him and tell him that I'd stopped being angry and realised that parents make mistakes, sometimes big ones that can't be put right, but that doesn't mean that they are terrible people. (This is why I don't write personal stuff - I still have dreams about my dad, some eight years after I last saw him and wake up frightened. ) Nobody tells them how to be parents, they just have to muddle along on their own and all of them get it wrong. Some get it more wrong than others.

Sometimes Andrew, children make big mistakes too, and it seems to me that one you have made is to assume it's the parents responsibility to ensure relationships work. It's the responsibility of BOTH parties and maybe you should examine your own part in what is obviously a dysfunctional relationship. I'm not trying to provoke you in any way but like the rest of us you feel you are right. You come across as thinking your assessment of your relationship with your father is the only fair way of looking at it. You may be wrong. Then again, I may be wrong! Oh, and by the way, no one is ever 'ready' to be a parent, and they don't all get it wrong. You will understand your father better when you are one yourself.

Morning Vicky, Seems like you've had a long night. All of the above advice is all good, but at the end of the day there is only you who can make the decision. I'll try to explain my advice. My mother was an out and out bitch. She battered me from the age of six weeks old. Threw me accross a room 'cos my dad had upset her. I just happened to be in her arms at the time. Three years old kicked me all over the kitchen until she had me cornered, then the final kick burst my eardrum. Seven years old she threw a pot of boiling porridge over me, again 'cos my dad had upset her. I got the beating 'cos she was jealous of my dad's love for me. I won't go into the rest of it now, but I think you've got the general picture. My dad left when I was eight, so there was nobody left to protect me. I searched for my dad when I grew up and eventually found him when I was twenty three. He moved up from London to live with me. Now in between this I still had contact with my mother (crazy I know) but I've a soft heart she knew this and played on my emotions. When I was thirty five I went to visit her one day and I had my children with me, she started, I left, vowing never to see her again. This decision wasn't easy, but eventually I had empowered myself with my decision, therefore I disempowered her. She could no longer hurt me. I never saw her again. She died last year. I was summoned by my stepfather. I went to the funeral, I sorted all of her affairs out and I cried and cried. The strange thing is I cried for the mother I should have had, not the one I'd had. I had a question for her you see, "Why, why had she treated me so badly?" I'll never know and I truly don't care 'cos I know it was HER problem not mine. Then, as you know my father died last year and I grieve for him every minute of the day. He had nothing to give except his unconditional love and I wouldn't have missed a second of it. I suppose by revealing the above to you is to say, make a list of why your dad makes you feel the way he does. Make another list of what you want from your dad (if anything). Then decide if that list is worth the pain etc, if it isn't, disempower him by empowering yourself. Whatever YOU decide will not be easy, but you will know that it is your decision. You might then be able to move on in your life. You know I wish you well. Take care. AJ xx

Hey I got one of them phones that tells you the name and number of the caller, it don't make things go away but you don't have to pick the phone up...if you don't wanna... and it's good for them tele sales people coz the caller number comes up as withheld so I never answer them. sorry this is no help is it...

Everyone's a victim, everyone's a culprit. Forgive if you can, pretend if you can't. Other people are bit players in our lives, but they are stars in their own, just trying to live our lives to the full can hurt others.

Okay, Back in the office now...got a few hours kip. I'm feeling better strangely, and I really appreciate everyone's advice. Andrew - my dad was 40 when he had me and I'm the youngest of 5 children so I have to go with Missus' point here that no-one's ever ready to be a parent. Missus - it seems like you're going with the old adage "he's still your father" whuch is rubbish. Being a parent doesn't automatically entitle him to respect and being a child doesn't automatically entile me to love. I guess I have to accept that. Aj- as usual You make my heart go out to you, you suffered a lot more that me and my petty problems don't seem as important in the cold light of day. Thankyou for that. Muzzy he only knows my mobile number for that reason, but sneakily calls from another phone occasionally (like last night) Anyway I'm back to (semi)normal this morning thankyou all for everything. Vicky

I wasn't suggesting for a moment that parenthood automatically entitles you to anything Vicky. I was only saying that unless there's a serious reason to ostracise your father, and assuming you want a relationship with him, no matter how difficult it may be to achieve if you don't forgive and try to be charitable towards him it will never happen. You will both be losers. Most parents love their kids unconditionally but some have problems, usually as a result of problems in their own childhood. If the cycle is never broken the problems pass from generation to generation. If the problems aren't insurmountable the prize can be a rewarding relationship for both of you. I really believe that if thats what you would like then it doesn't matter who's to blame, you must look to the future not dwell on the past.

I know you mean well Missus, but they're just words. Saying " I forgive you" doesn't make it true. Telling me to forgive him is daft. That's what I WANT to do for God's sake. What I was asking was how?

Nobody can tell you how Vicky, it's something you have to work out for yourself. I've probably not made things any easier so I'll shut up now. Sorry I couldn't be of any real assistance.

No you were great...it's me that's a pain in the ass. Thanks anyway Missus Vicky

Evening Vicky, We parents don't have a right to love, respect etc. We have to earn that, through being a good parent. However, I would never hurt one of my kids, 'cos to hurt them hurts me. The parent that can hurt their child doesn't deserve their love. Sorry Missi and everybody else, but that's how I see it. I love my kids to death, through all of their foibles, etc. 'cos at the end of the day I made 'em, and they are part of me. AJ x

Understanding. As soon as you understand , you can never be hurt or made to feel bad by this person again.

Vodka, cigarettes and choclate;-)

Tony Blair makes my skin crawl. I jus switch off the telly though

Hi Vicky, Disempower the person who hurts you, by empowering yourself. Works everytime. Trust me. Take care. AJ

I'm ratted so I'm off at a tangent but: If you try to carry the world on your shoulders everyone will let you. Learn to delegate and love yourself. If you try to be too strong you will break. Some things cannot be rushed - give yourself time and you will find a way. Strong emotion is NOT logical and will not listen to reason. Take up Yoga forget blame and and search for forgiveness for those who have hurt you. The greatest pain in life comes always from those you love and who love you. Compassion and compromise are the key to contentment but it takes time.... Or you can be a hypocrite like me and get pissed:-)

How do I do that AJ?

I don't drink. I've tried Yoga...and I'm not normally this negative Honest....