Infidelity

Actually I do have something to add. This thread reminds me of Jaala, and I'd like you to bear with me a minute while I tell our story, because it concerns infidelity, and I'm still confused as to who was being unfaithful to who. Perhaps someone can help me work it out. Jaala's mother was Native American Navaho, and was always referred to as Grandma Blue Eyes. Her father was of Mestizo descent, mixed Spanish and South American Indian. I never got to meet either of them. I met Jaala in 1980 while living in California. She was 32 years old, so to me, at 24, she was an “older woman.” She had two beautiful daughters of 12 and 13, and Jaala herself was as alluring, sensuous and bewitching as it was possible to be, enticing admiring glances wherever she went. She had preserved her heritage by keeping up her language skills, and spoke fluent Athapaskan and Uto-Aztecan. She could also get by in Quechua and worked as an interpreter and translator for various government agencies all over California, Nevada and Arizona. They, of course, paid a ridiculously low salary for someone as indespensible as herself. She wore long Gypsy-like dresses and always had a real flower in her hair. Always. She bought a flower of one description or another every morning. Jaala was a gentle soul who enjoyed time spent with her kids, smoking grass, making love, playing her guitar and singing. In that order. In comparison I was an arsehole, but she was never judgemental, and in fact made every attempt to understand me, helping me to adjust to life in Southern California, and trying to appreciate where I was coming from. Jaala was very wise, and we were to fall hopelessly and disastrously in love. So already we have the confusion of a 24 year old Londoner trying to come to terms with the mature emotions of a 32 year old California girl. But Jaala was lovely. It seems that we did nothing but make love for almost six months. We used to lock ourselves away in what we called our little love nest. She would first cook a meal and then we’d visit the local bars in Manhatten Beach, which is everything that you imagine California to be like - long beaches, surf boards, smiles, sun-bleached hair and safe. But we were always home early to smoke some pot and go to bed. For exactly five months and one day Jaala and I made love every time we went to bed. And we were sleeping together four or five nights a week. We were smoking a lot of weed and that always seems to enhance lovemaking. I was working in a diner on Venice Beach, and there were a crowd of us - all mates from back home in England - living in California at the time. We'd started hanging about with the girls from the restaurant, and Jaala just mixed in great with the crowd. It was a great summer. We were all working and we all had regular girlfriends. We had money and we had each other. Two or three times a week we’d be round each other’s apartments and one of the girls would cook dinner. The American birds were always having parties and I think we were as much a novelty to them as they were to us. Five months and one day after I first started seeing Jaala she told me that for the past two years she’d been going out with a married man. She really cared for him a lot. He knew all about me and, in fact, had encouraged her to have other boyfriends. She told me that at one stage she’d been really nuts about me, but had managed to shake that off (her words), but this guy still felt there was a danger of us getting too close. So he’d now separated from his wife. Jaala had been praying this would happen for two years, and so now she had to find out if it could work or not. She told me she’d like to keep seeing me as well, although not so often, and asked how I felt about that. By this time, of course, I was really “nuts” about her. She’d been a calming influence on a life that was starting to spiral out of control. It seems we’d fallen in love with each other, but at the wrong times. She’d fallen for me first, yet by the time I fell for her she had “managed to shake that off.” Well bollocks. I didn’t see her for a few days. And when I did see her again we went down a local bar and then back to her place. I specificaly remember her putting a lot of loving, caring and feeling into our lovemaking, which was really nice. I appreciated that. It made me feel wanted, which was surprising under the circumstances. I went through agonies for a week and did nothing except sit about the apartment on my own I just had to phone and ask if she’d blown me out for good or what. She gently explained that she’d cared for this man for a long time, and had been praying for this but never really believed it would happen. She said that she’d still like to keep in touch with me, but as a friend not a lover. She wanted to talk and explain everthing in detail. The next night I cycled round there and we had a drink in Besties, a bar owned by George Best. She explained that she’d been really fond of me, and still was, but only as a friend now. She explained all her feelings in detail. We bought a six-pack and a fire log, and went back to her apartment to play cards. She didn’t get her guitar out and sing for me, as she’d done so often in the past. As we climbed into bed she put on a nightdress and said, “I don’t want to make love to you because I’ve made a committment now, and that really means a lot to me. There’s no way I’m going to be unfaithful. You’ll learn that not all California girls are of the loose morals that you imagine.” I understood that, and admired it too. We held each other tight and talked for a long time, both realising that it was probably the last time we’d sleep in the same bed. She cried until 5.30 in the morning and (if I was to be just a little bit honest) I may have wiped the odd tear away from my own eyes as well. (Of course, that's over twenty years ago and I don’t remember it all that clearly). In the morning I attempted a few moves but she wouldn’t have any of it. I kept trying all the same until, with a twinkle in her eye, she got out of bed, just to, “remove the temptation,” as she put it. We’d had a lot of good times in that bed over the past six months, and I feel that she handled our break-up with the wisdom and maturity of an old soul. That was the last time we slept together for five years, at which time I was on the road helping to manage a travelling sales crew and we hit Santa Monica fo a couple of weeks. I looked Jaala up and we went out for a drink, followed by a trip back to her place for old time’s sake, where we happily ravished, raped and violated each other for about three hours. The relationship with the married guy hadn’t lasted. He’d gone back to his wife. I’ve never heard from Jaala since, but I wish her sunshine, safety and secret smiles.

A very similar story to mine Karl, but then you know that having read it. The differences between us are that mine ended just 18mths ago and I was twice your age when it happened, but more importantly I'm no where near as understanding and forgiving as you. As Alison points out, being bitter is destructive but I'm still too raw to be much else.

is it possible to have an affair without having sex? a friend of mine had a relationship with her boss who was married... She denied they were having "a relationship" because they hadn't actually done anything physical. But they thought about it all the time, they flirted, they teased, they texted and phoned each other even when they had days off work, cos they missed each other, and he popped round for a cup of tea or two after work from time to time. But they hadn't touched each other so he wasn't being unfaithful? - yeah, right.

He wasn't. Face it - men like women and women like men. There is always an element of sexual tension, however large or small, in a male/female friendship. We've been through this recently. Fidelity is not cheating, lieing, wasting time with someone else, but infedilty is not in thought or in liking someone or in enjoying their company. Don't build walls around yourself. You only have one life and when you connect with someone you should enjoy it for what it is. Don't make more of it but also don't make less of it. Be open, be trusting, be true to others but, most of all, to yourself.

but if you are spending every waking hour fantasising about someone who is not your partner and wishing you could be with them instead of your partner, knowing your partner would be hurt by your thoughts and the time and attention you are lavishing on that person, I don't think you are being faithful. What about my friend who thinks "just snogging" isn't being unfaithful? not sure her boyfriend would agree..

i agree gail ... it differs greatly from the harmless liking of someone that tony seems to be talking about ...

i'd say it is possible to be unfaithful emotionally. if i spend my time texting, phoning, talking online and generally longing for someone other than my partner, it is a type of infidelity. the secrecy and betrayal of trust is the same as if i were having a physical affair. i wouldn't want to be gail's friend's boss's wife. i dont know anyone who has genuinely forgiven a partner's infidelity..i know enough people who have had affairs, or whose partners have had affairs. they are usually terminal [this is how my own marriage ended]...if the relationship survives it is usually for practical reasons involving kids or money, not forgiveness despite my own experience i like to think that fidelity is possible..that it is a choice and not a burden..

and i would kill my boyfriend if he did the above or snogged someone ...

biologically we are not destined for fidelity. Mammals arne't. birds (the feathered kind) are the only group for whom lifelong monogamy is genetically/ evolutionarily advantageous However i believe i can rise above my animal nature

Hi-Fidelity is a great book isn't it?

Dear Marjie, I have been in a relationship with a web site for the past 8 months. At first it was like an addiction, I'd be up late at night writing stories to it, posting on the threads, waiting for an email with a cherry in it. Over time the relationship matured, and I became more relaxed. I set up a sort of diary, where I would come home and tell it all about my day. But just lately I've been seeing a younger site with a chat room. I know it's wrong, but I can't help myself. I don't want to hurt anyone. What should I do?

Both my parents had affairs at different times and my dad never forgave my mum for hers which was a short fling. His was a long-term relationship but started when mum wasn't happy with their marriage anymore and she found out after the separation and didn't seem bothered. My sister, however, cannot forgive either of them. When you're young, it's so easy to think, 'I'd never do that to somebody.' My sister is older than me but has never really had close personal relationships, just 'mates,' so I don't think she really understands. I don't look down on my parents for what they did or think they're bad people. I think they're brilliant people who have made mistakes. Sometimes really bad ones. But I think that it can happen to anyone. I have learnt from them that I can never truthfully say 'I couldn't do that,' because I could and I might, however much I dislike the idea. I hope that if a partner is ever unfaithful to me, I will bear this in mind and be able to forgive them. I think fidelity is possible but too difficult for most people who are only human. I can see how big the temptation might be and the average person is probably not strong enough to overcome it. We are only animals after all and asking ourselves to stick with one person for the majority of our lives is a tall order. Sooo many affairs happen that I think in most cases fidelity is very nearly unmanageable (which doesn't mean that affairs are inevitable, just possible). It would be much more comfortable to think that someone you love more than anything would never do that, but that's a bit unrealistic. It's sad because I don't ever want to hurt someone that badly or be hurt by them because I can't imagine how devastated I would be. But that's love for you I guess *sigh*

Would having sex with a "professional" constitute infidelity?

do you mean a lawyer or a doctor JT???

..or a sex therapist? Like Dr Ruth??

Bloody hell Alison, why did you have to start a thread about this? Just when I thought I was over the worst you have to shine a light in my corner. Of course the thought, if more than just a fleeting moment, is infidelity. All deeds are part thought and part action, inseparable and co-dependent, the physical bit is the culmination of the mental bit but that doesn't mean that without the shag the infidelity doesn't exist. I know from bitter experience that long before the shagging starts the relationship is doomed by the mental decision to cheat. This of course, can be a very subtle shift in attitude, but if serious, festers until the current partner starts to feel the icy fingers of indifference start to grip their heart. Nobody in a real relationship would consider cheating without thinking about it first. I would never cheat, and I have never in my life when in a relationship, ever looked at another woman and been guilty of mental infidelity. I have admired women in passing, but never once considered or imagined myself cheating. Do unto others.....etc.

"Professional" could mean anything. :)))

It seems a bit harsh to put the thought on a level with the deed. If the principle were to be extended, the jails would be filled with people who've been so angry at some point they've felt like murder, not to mention those who've imagined themselves rich after robbing a bank.

It was Jimmy Carter, who when US Prez, gave an interview to Playboy and talking about his Christian principles said that he reckoned a married bloke lusting after another women was tantamount to committing adultery. He was largely laughed at in the libidinous seventies.

Our imaginations offer us thousands of scenarios every day, most of them unbidden, prompted by the speculative nature of thought. Any attempt to police these momentary fantasies, or to feel guilty about them, would surely drive a person insane. Intentionality is another thing. If you look at a woman other than your wife of partner, lust after them and then set about contriving a real life situation where your lust might be satisfied that's another thing entirely. I would consider that to infidelity whether the plans you have made are successful or not, the betrayal has already happened.

Surely whales are monogamous, Jude. I personally don't believe there's anything wrong in "looking", and perhaps even "wondering casually." It's the "doing" that constitutes infidelity. My wife always jokingly says, "Nothing wrong in looking at the menu." I fancy Linds Lusardi, she fancies Liam Neesom, but only in a casual "looking" sort of way. I may be leaving myself open to abuse from certain quarters here, but blokes think about sex. And, I suspect, so do women. Blokes can't help looking at tits. It's natural. Some old sixty-year-old goes past with a decent pair of knockers and the bloke thinks, "Wow, look at the tits on that," and perhaps even visualises them a little. And I'm sure women, in their own way, are the same. It happens one hundred thousand million times a day. But it's not infidelity. If he or she does something about it, then that would be infidelity. My advice, for what it's worth, if someone is considering being unfaithfull, is to choose a quiet spot and masterbate with the thought of the desired one in mind. And I guarantee that as soon as you've finished and you're brave enough to carry the hyperthetical situation through to it's conclusion, i.e. you're now imagining lying beside your intended with the dirty deed all over and done with, you will then realise that that is not where you want to be. Once your energy is spent, you do not want to be lying beside that woman/man. You want to be home with your spouse. And if you allow your imagination to carry you forward, you will no doubt feel an overwhelming sense of guilt. That, in itself, should be enough to prevent you carrying out the dirty deed in the first place. Boy, have I just left myself open to attacks from trolls.

I think it's a mistake to put ALL thoughts in the same category Tom, in this instance we are discussing infidelity. Not all deeds are comparable. To put a betrayal of trust and belief in a persons emotional honesty alongside a persons intention to commit a crime of violence or against property is stretching things a bit too far in my opinion. However my intended meaning was as you describe in your last post. Jimmy Carter's christian principles were, and are laughable, but at the risk of awakening the defender of the faith, I think most so-called christian principles are laughable. I would have thought his self-righteousness would have precluded him from making statements of any kind in what is generally regarded by the church as a scandalous publication. (I read James use of the word 'professional' as being a reference to what are euphemistically referred to as 'ladies of the night')

i've held back so far as I think infidelity is a dauntingly complicated issue. I find its presence in a relationship depressing enough to keep me out of having one. Ultimately I have never found a fidelious male and I am talking about infidelity in action and not thought. I think a relationship in which you are not allowed, by the partner or yourself to feel desire for another is stifling and unhealthy. I have been in a relationship where i did not feel desire for another living being, and I would describe myself then as having been obssessive, and dominated. I believe when a relationship isn't working, all kinds of desires and fantasies seep in and rather than hurt the other person, or try to revamp your old shared feelings , it's better to jack it in. Sooner rather than later.

oh i might as well put my hand up to having been unfaithful ... it was a long time ago and a very sharp learning curve ... i see it as a symptom of rather than a cause of relationship breakdown ...if you desire someone to the point where you are thinking about them all the time and perhaps take it further (or want to) then it means something is wrong with the relationship you are already in ... the trouble with it is that it can become seen as the cause by the other half of the relationship who can then feel justifiably wronged and lump all the hurt and pain onto the faithless one instead of carrying any responsibility for the failure of the relationship in the first place ... i feel strongly about this subject these days ... i find i am very judgemental about it and feel uncomfortable with people doing it ...i lose respect for people ... i would like to think that it is something i would never do again ... and i like the idea of fidelity being a postive choice rather than a burden as new puritan says ... in the case of relationships now i very much hope i have the courage to face the problems and the honesty to deal with them instead of taking the unfaithful route which i feel is a cowardly one ... screwing someone else when you are supposedly committed to your partner shows a lack of respect both for yourself and for your partner ... getting involved with someone who is being unfaithful to their partner with you shows the same lack of self respect too ...

I can't believe I've had TWO good chuckles today. The second provided by the mental picture of the guy on the front page sitting in his car at a local beauty spot giving his meat loaf a good hiding. Ha ha ha ! Any how I never thought of the transient look of admiration, or the momentary imagination of the deed, in the same context as a 'serious' contemplation of infidelity. Menu gazing is harmless enough, maybe even necessary, to allow one to appreciate what they have already. Alison gave me food for thought though, in her observations about infidelity being a result of a bad relationship, rather than the reverse. On the other hand sometimes, as I believe was the case in my last relationship, the other party was just looking for a good time, but allowed me to think there was more on the table as she knew I wouldn't be interested in a short-term dalliance. When she ran out of excuses and lies the truth came out, but I KNOW in my heart I did nothing wrong, the relationship was ultimately bad because she never intended anything more to start with.

well glad i gave you food for thought missi ... i think i'd like to say here that i think there is a difference between blame and responsibilty ... using the word blame implies some wrong doing and i didn't use the word ... a relationship can be failing for many reasons and sometimes through nobody's fault ... the responsibility i think you might need to feel is the way that you misread her motives and feelings ... something that means you perhaps now feel angry and foolish and maybe as though you have let yourself down by being taken in ... feeling wronged and bitter is not healthy and will also interfere with your ability to move on and trust someone else in the future ... taking responsibilty for your mistake in trusting her might allow you to feel less wronged by her perhaps?? the good thing about any experience is that it can force us to learn and evolve as people ... hiding behind hurt and feeling wronged prevents this in my opinion ...

Yeah, I can see now I misread her feelings and motives. I should have known there was more than one way to hear things such as 'You're everything I ever wanted in a man' 'I only want to be with you' 'We don't need anybody else do we?' 'Can I think of this ring as an engagement ring?' (3 weeks before she shagged another guy) Yeah I accept responsibility for believing her during a relationship that lasted 7yrs, and 13yrs of friendship previous to that. I would never let a bad relationship affect a future one though, but I'd probably be more cautious. Anyway these days one of my most used phrases is 'my future is all behind me'. (I don't believe either of us used the 'blame' word.)

I have been unfaithful a couple of times but under much provocation. Actually one of the times was because I didn't trust my partner and was paying back a future infidelity. I know that's terrible! Flirting is food for another thread entirely, but if I am with someone who flirts too much with others I fantasise about being unfaithful and paying them back. I'm not a flirt, so i need them to know I will be using a different weapon should the need arise. But I could only be unfaithful if I was prepared to end the relationship. I can't understand the idea of wanting 2 people on the boil at the same time. For me it would make both of them lukewarm and simmering. But perhaps that's attractive to someone who doesn't fancy commitment.

Karl, great story, I was rivetted. Fish, you are very wise. I went out with someone who paid far more attention to his work and how much money he was earning than to me. I did tell him I wasn't happy with being second place all the time and that I was putting more into the relationship than him, but he was always too busy to really take any notice. I was invited to a Christmas party and invited him as he was home, but he was too busy to come out as he was busy travelling to his parents' house some distance away as he still lived at home (aged 32) when in the UK which made things awkward too. I met someone at the party and he made me feel good and wanted. I did nothing that night but gave him my number. He cooked me dinner one evening and I was a bit unfaithful, not completely, but I did end up staying the night. The next day I acted so weird and was so tired from staying awake most of the night not having sex but wanting to, the workaholic man asked me what was wrong and said I was acting really strange. I'm not a good liar so I told him. He was really upset and left, and then I was blamed as the bad, unfaithful, uncaring one. I was unfaithful as a result of being neglected by him. With hindsight I should have tried to make him see how much I needed someone to be around more often and pay me more attention than he did. I should have told him in words rather than actions, but I just get this feeling he wouldn't have done anything about it unless he really had to and unless I made it really obvious. I was unfaithful because the relationship didn't work. He probably prefers to see it the other way round - as the relationship not working because I was unfaithful.

Thanks for that note, Gail. This brings something else into the mix. Who's at fault where infidelity is concerned? Is it simply lack of communication that is the ultimate culprit?

I think it's often a lack of honesty with yourself as well as not communicating with your partner. Alcohol has a lot to do with it. There would be many less infidelities if alcohol wasn't there to act as a catalyst! Now there's another question, is being unfaithful when you're drunk any more excusable than doing it when you are sober?

I have little to add here at the moment, but would just like to say that this is one of the best threads we've had for a long, long time. We are openly debating thought-provoking issues - sometimes from different viewpoints - without falling out. This, to me, is what the forums should be all about. Debate about serious issues between intelligent people. Well done, Fisf, for bringing this to the fore.