Are you a fighter or a flighter?

Wow Wolfgirl so well!!! put together, nice to see someone taking the trouble to answer the ones who took the trouble to answer the thread they started, could do with a bit more of that as long as its kept short and sweet like you have done. Keep up the good work as they say...

Oh Jay - you dont bore people - and your not a coward either - your a survivor of time and that makes you special ! We haven't been into the wayside for a picnic for ages have we ? - I've missed that whilst I've been busy working Gives Jay a hug - why didn't you say - I could teach you how to play darts - not that I'm any good at it mind - but its a bit like taking empty bottles to the bottle bank and smashing them - it does have it's theraputic side to it But you do have a point there are many meanings that can be given to the one saying 'fighter or flighter ' - than just that of expressing yourself within the context of an arguement or debate Can you be a coward in walking away? - I dont think so - I mean it must take a lot of courage to face your own defeat or to decide not particapate any longer in something that seems so a miss and worthless or even not to get involved at all - or to give up totally I think we all wish we could live like Tom sadly most of us have to live and work where there may not be the choice of being able to walk away or to live in total harmony - after all in the real world people often create misunderstanding - sometimes without even trying and most of us don't have all the answers nor know how to react to those misunderstanding - nor do we have total control over others in how they respond or react - how I wish it could be all be just dealt with by calmful conversation ! I would love a quiet life - would give anything for it - does that make me a fighter or is it the way I go about gaining that life that counts? Careful Henstoat !!!! " The Mastery Scale" belongs to - Pearlin, L., & Schooler, C. (1978) - The structure of coping - Journal of Health and Social Behaviour - 19 pp 2- 21 wouldn't want you to get into trouble now would we ?

Out of interest Ralph, is your boss still in her job? Did it make any difference taking a stand?

Liana Well she has been suspended by the board pending an enquirey which i will be part of ( i am pooing myself about it). The youth drama workers and the administrator are still running the company. Its her company as well, she formed it and I think she will be toppled. Its in Hackney and there will be many other voluntary orgs who will pick up the work and do a better job. The sad thing is these young peole really are at risk, she had been police checked and had a fantastic reputation in the beginning but it just disintagrated, she physically pushed young people around in the end. When I was younger (long time ago) I was a bad boy with drugs and was more of a risk to myself. I did not work with young people at tha point because I was a young person myself and joined youth theatre companys just like the one I ended up working for. Maybe some Irony in that. ralph

Very sad episode all round.

Yes I know. Listen, i am going through a tough time at the moment and this is directed at everyone if you have the mind and patience to listen (which I know is rich coming from me). I have behaved appalingly over the past month or so. I apologise again for everything I have said and done. There is no excuse for it. I've been a sad fuckwit. I just want to join in again thats all. I don't want sympathey or redemption, just to get back on some sort of even keel. ok Ralph

Just thought I'd copy (part of) Tom's post 'cos I couldn't have put it better mesefl :-) '...I usually can't be bothered to fight with people on the Net. If they say things I don't like I avoid them. Life's too short to listen to idiots. You can never win anyway. And there's always another one around the corner. You could spend all your time trying to duke it out. In the end they control your life and make you feel bad. What's the point?...'

Lesson learnt bigtime.

Hi Pioden what a treasure you are being there when your needed, thanks for the hug and kind words even if its not tangible it makes all the difference in a lonely old world. I had forgotten about the wayside and the fun we had so yes, we will do it again as for the dart playing we won't augue but I bet your better than me, I like the game but do they hit the board when I throw, do they hell as like but I would still be up for a game. Watch this space for the next match and place your bets, nothing like a gamble to get the fluids pumping...

How appropriate that this should come today when I've just had a huge kick off, with just about everyone I've come into contact with. I am a pleaser, which means that anyone can use me, put on me, or take me for granted. However although I'm a pleaser I'm also intelligent enough (just) to fully realise when I'm being used, put on or taken advantage of, but I turn a blind eye. Each time I feel like this it adds one more stick to the building flame and I let it go on and on feeding my little fire .. until one day (today) kapow! I blow. I hate confrontation and wil do anything I can for anybody, but only for so long. Thank God for my diary ... It is my calming influence.

Ralph, your words testify that you are a fighter; it does take a lot of courage to stand up and admit bad behaviour. I have been very depressed by the level of poison that has dripped over the forums. Words into the air are one thing but words on screen or on paper can be very, very wounding. They can be read repeatedly and the knife twists in deeper. Karl in particular is a kind, entertaining chap who does not deserve it. The people at ABC, although not part of my other life in a way, are important to me because we share a common purpose: we all want to communicate to the world through our work. There have been ripples of wonderful writing on this site that has made me cry, made me extremely envious and brought me put in a rash of giggles. Spats like the ones we have seen are so toxic and offputting for any new writers who may be perusing the site. They may be understandably terrified to post anything or more importantly, put some work up. We may be scaring away a potential Joseph Conrad. Some writers have a butterfly-like consititution and are extremely sensitive to 'atmospheres'. We have had a very bad one on ABC for too long now. Let's open all the doors and let out the bad feeling and get on with some bloody writing. Jay, you naughty lady...I did not have you pegged as a gambler....I would have bet my life on it... Hi there Sooz. Yes, diaries can be therapeutic but I always think it must be difficult to share your innermost feelings, like being inside-out on the floor. Or is it cathartic? Sad to say too that I avoided Camden today (I was free) because of all the crap flying and the potential of aggro. I am an old hippy at heart and want everyone to smoke the peace pipe and give one another hugs. (Or Jaffa cakes served by Liana in a French Maid's outfit on a pink plate supplied by Fish). So what will it be: Jaffas at teatime or swords at dawn? (I have only just realised that the French Maid thing sounds vaguely rude but I meant it in a very innocent way).

Thanks Wolfie. I hope that time will heal this.

Thank you very much for your kind words Jay and Chant. (Chant, I'm afraid I'm a little in the dark about what you mean but thanks anyway!). Reading over it, the above was probably the longest thing I've ever written in the forums!

Take your time Ralph - take your own time and take it easy - I find flying helps but then again since I've been given these blasted wings well I'm getting in to more mischief than I ever knew possible ! It can be lonely for a while - you'll be ok there is an end to the tunnel - chin up our kid - this doesn't mean I agree with what you've done but I do know where your at - think positive Wolfie - I go along with your sentiments 100% Jay I normally miss the dart board but thats when I dont have my specs on so its always better to remember to stand behind me when I'm throwing a dart ok - just in case anyway I've just discovered snowflakes - white chocolate flake inside a layer of ordinary chocolate - they're yummy - besides which I love saying - as we've had some lovely weather recently and its late summer - to those going out "Remember to bring me home a Snowflake " - like they're going to Antarctic for me just to get me a real snowflake and not just around to the corner shop! Well its makes me feel speical anyway ! Hey that would make a great advert for them *starts to sing* - 'only the crumblist flakesest (sp)chocolate ...................... taste like chocolate should ....... I wonder why next door cat always pushes itself against my legs when ever I try to sing? So Jay shall I bring you a 'Snowflake' ?

vous dites, surely, Sherlock? *this posting was brought to you by the association of pedants*

I can't stand confrontation either. If there's a slightest hint of an argument, violence, or even a case of people not getting on which involves me, I feel sick. It completely takes hold of me, I dread the future and what will happen next, and I can't stop thinking about whatever the thing is, can't sleep or concentrate, etc. I'm a very passive and often weak person who has trouble standing up for herself. Maybe because of this I always seem to become close friends with people who are the opposite of me in that sense - very strong people. This means I give in to them a lot, but they also seem to stick up for me if I'm ever in trouble. This may not be coming across too well - apologies for the inarticulacy (you may have noticed I don't join in the debatey type threads often!). I don't purposefully look out for people to become friends I can hide behind, it just seems to happen that way. I dunno, the mind's a funny thing. The reason I'm like this is probably a lot to do with being brought up by my mother, who is similarly shy and afraid of everything. More so than me, but even so, I hate any kind of new situation, being it going somewhere I've never been before and looking stupid because I don't know the way around, or having to speak to a figure of authority or something. Another reason may be my parents arguments (my dad left when I was seven). But that's the strange thing. These arguments must have happened, since my mum's told me stuff about them in later years, and if they were seperating there was surely some arguing, but I have absolutely no memory of anything like that. I think I've blocked them all out.

*hides behind Fish*

Hi Feeb, because as you said you don't join in very often I'm saying wellcome and no need to apologies as I think your point was very valued and came across just fine and you should join in more often. Its a bit difficult for me to say a lot to you as I think Iam the oldest one on here 76ys and I have been joining in for a year now and in that time got to know most of them, some only by there writing a few I have met personally. A very nice crowd on the whole and you join in if it suits so hope we will hear from you again as that first leap is always the worse, you have made that so mybe some more please...

Jay Its Beef in another name i think.... :o) You are a darling though!

that's odd, Feeb. from the little i know of you, i would have said you tended to do quite brave things for someone your age.

Hi once more Pioden, Have only just read your last thread and yes please I would like a snowflake. Your cat is only rubbing around your legs because he thinks your special just like I do and although I mean it I think I should have two snowflake for telling you so. Loved the singing only trouble is I couldn't make out if it was you or the cat>>>>>oh naughty Jay not very nice hope I'm not reduced to one snowflake now...

The cat's rubbing round your legs 'cos it figures that you'll probably stop singing while you're feeding it, Pioden.

I was taking a wild stab in the dark, Chant, as my French is not what it used to be, and was never particularly competent. So the mastery theory has been thoroughly done to death, eh? I'm not surprised - it *seems* fairly obvious, when you think about it. Ah, well. I'll do a confession then. I would say I'm a rather insecure person who reacts to failure on all levels with deep and thorough analysis of the cause and a zealous effort to overcome that flaw, or work around it. This driving thing has been the bane of my life since I started it, since I've had such trouble working out why I'm not a natural, what's causing me to make mistakes, how so many people pass when the rules are so tricky etc. Getting into conflict with people, my main concern is seeing it through to an end, and I consider it ended when I know exactly what the problem is and why the parties have come to blows. Often, this will be straight away - a misunderstanding, say, and it can finish quickly. If it's a difference of opinion, I want to get to the bottom of it, and become very frustrated if the other person is of the, "That's nice - I don't care," or "Just leave it," disposition. I don't like to leave things hanging. On a larger level, this is why I spend so much time trying to work out the extent of the actual human problem, and explore certain ideas in my work. I like the idea that we're all bumbling around playing roles in life, grasping at elements of control from under these covers - feeling at our most powerful when we can slip into easy reactionary roles - the avenger, the crusader, the defender etc. And I write a lot about how we're secretly delighted (a secret even to ourselves perhaps,) at the failures of others, which is why we're so big on dehumanising each other into simple derogatory terms. Qu'est ce que vous dites?

Laughing while she writes to thank Liana. Half the time I don't know who's who on here unless they have intellignt sensible names like you and me. By the way thanks for the coment I did wonder why nobody else had taken it up like useall and was so glad I got in first for a change. I know I have said it many times and oh as she tried's hard while tearing her hair out to quicken up and not succeeding I'm am always telling the people I know about the threads and tell them by the time I'v got my answer on they have all either gone home or gone to bed so loved it when I thought I had got in first for once. The hours I spend trying to get it right>>>>sigh's...

Oh no Jay its ok - gives Jay three snowflakes - I know I can't sing anyway - thats why people pay me to go away at Christmas when I go carol singing ! I'm an expert none singer ! ;-))))))))))0 Mykle - I don't feed next door's cat - HE - a big black and white Tom - comes here to escape the kids for peace and quiet - the odd stroke and the odd cuddle when he lets me ! a bit likeeeeeeeeeee .............. lovely day isn't it ????!!!!!

Wolfgirl you got it right then, yes I have been taught by only the best. So are you starting the betting off, if so make it a good one and drag the rest in I'm counting on you. Don't let me down mind, I'm sure that hunkie feller of yours will help you...

Pioden as we have met in the wayside you will know as I do that the way I talk is as common as muck and to late to change now even if I wanted to which I don't. Mybe you and every one else have noticed that I always go round the bush before I get to the point this being no exception, now I have done that,>>>>>I will begin. Full stop capital letter she said with a flourish anyway this fits in with your last thread I think. I went to my blind club last week we are all elderly but some off them think they are above there station. We had a man in to entain us on the accordion so we were asked if any one would like to sing a song over the mike, at first nobody did then as one went up another followed, of cause they were real oldie songs and most of the singers picked songs which were all sweetness and light as I call it a bit on the lar,lar poshie side, anyway my mate and myself decided we had had enough of that so I thought I would lower the tone a bit so it was my turn next, wasn't used to a mike but thought I would give it a try. As I said wanting to bring things down to my level I sang a real cockny song hope you know it as this excise has been in vain if not, the song was and sung with a cockny accent, wait for it. All me Life I Wanted to be a Barrow Boy and knowing the second verse which not a lot of people know, as its all the cockny slang of years ago, well once I finished I thought they would all look down there noses but I got so much response clapping and shouting more and even got ask to do it again at there christmas party>>>>well I could have died. So there you have it, unlike you Pioden looks as if I can, sing only its the first I'v heard of it. Wish I hadn't started this as she sits with head in hands, the only excuse I am making is they do say its good to talk and I can talk a hind leg off a donkey>>>>well>>>> it stops me topping myself as I wouldn't have a voice then and without a voice no talking. Oh forgot to tell you I'm only a>>>>>>PUPPET>>>>>>...

Anger is a strange thing. My current theory is that I respond aggressively to people because, as a very young child, when I first began to put things together and learn, I was taught that anger is a way of stopping undesirable things happening. Parents react angrily, or loudly, when you do something wrong. Some of this must sink in as a way of dealing with problems, and thus many of us, quite irrationally (I feel,) respond to a threat - to either ourselves or our values - by being offensive ourselves. The actual anger may be from internal confusion - a failure to comprehend the reasoning of another. Other distinctly unattractive human traits seem to extend from that as a way of dealing with the anger - contempt, disgust, and all those things we nurture as a way of taking the moral highground, solve our internal disputes by creating the illusion of being 'above' the cause of the confusion. Hence, all this talk of 'sinking standards.' There is nothing actually 'lower' about arguing or namecalling, (indeed, what is wrong with something actually being low?? And isn't sky high bad as well?) Personally, I find flippancy is often the most productive way to respond, as it gives off good vibes - not if it's from an implied position of superiority though. I may be wrong, but I think the "Jaffa cake, anyone?" line has sinister overtones that cause more trouble - it seems to me a statement of contempt, and contempt breeds contempt.

I grew up on a very tense family situation. The extremely short version is that my mother was a rager and my father didn't do anything about it, or certainly not much. I was afraid for my life...that may not have been a realistic fear...but who cares about reality....that's how I saw it. At about the age of five, when I was physically large enough to confront my mother myself, I hauled off and punched her in the arm one day when she was screaming at me for the umpteenth time about nothing. She was shocked, recovered, then started screaming again...I punched her again. She started crying and went downstairs to tell my father what I had done. He did nothing about it. I have a vague recollection of his telling me "you shouldn't hit your mother," but I clearly got the message that I was doing his work for him. That only happened twice, and then she backed off, at least physically. She never really did stop the screaming. So basically, If I think I can do something about the outcome, I will confront anyone regardless of the situation. This is not always very smart, as it leads to confrontation with authority figures (or self-styled authority figures like bus drivers), but that's the way it is. If I think someone is abusing me, I will deal with them in such a way that they take the memory to their grave with them. As far as the forums go, if it's not my battle, I stay away. If it is my battle, I will state my position and then usually just walk away.

My family life was happy, but there was a lot of bickering and moaning and game-playing between my parents. So I promised myself that, when I left home, my life would be different. Jean's family experience was similar, if not worse. The consequence is that we hardly ever argue. In thirty-one years of marriage we've had one or two minor upsets. As a rule, I usually can't be bothered to fight with people on the Net. If they say things I don't like I avoid them. Life's too short to listen to idiots. You can never win anyway. And there's always another one around the corner. You could spend all your time trying to duke it out. In the end they control your life and make you feel bad. What's the point?

Henstoat - I wonder why you find the jaffa comment to have sinister overtones.. that seems odd to me. let me explain why. About two years ago, I was embroiled in a spectacularly stupid and unproductive row on these forums with someone who will remain nameless (we both laugh about it now) another member popped on and offered us both a jaffa cake, someone else brought in a flask of tea. It had the desired effect of diffusing a potentially scary situation for us all, and the whole thread dissolved into pleats of laughter. thats why it has become a by word for a scrap thats out of order, and an attempt to inject humour. Nothing contemptuous about it, so yes, you are wrong. (in the nicest possible way) I suspect its a case of finding things frightening, when you dont understand them. A very common response. Fight or flight.... These days if I dont understand something, online, or in real life, I ask. Not in a confrontational, patronising or aggressive manner, and I find that it often wrong foots someone who might be getting at me. In a situation I cant control and dont understand, I admit confusion. People are always ( or most times at least) willing to help. If someone is confronting me, and I believe they are wrong, then like Justin (one of the wisest people i know) i will state my case, then walk away (even if i am raving and fuming inside). this particularly helps if the person is a) clearly a nutcase or b) not willing to alter their stance or even listen to an alternativce opinion. In my youth (and that doesnt mean anything other than what it says) I often used to stand firm, stamp my foot and bang on until the other person admitted defeat. these days, im too tired, too old, and have too little time to waste on changing peoples minds if it doesnt affect me what they think. one of the worst times for my family was when i was into my second year of studying psychology. gawd, what a pain in the @!#$ i was........ *dont say it!*

:>)))Liana, we know don't we. For the record and I will probably be brow beaten again as (THE DRAMA QUEEN) don't really matter much to me, name calling, as I have truly walked the walk. So apologies to the hecklers etc, but.... being greatly abused as a child etc I learned that nobody can stick up for me except me. (Still amazes me when others do!) I, therefore when I am slated etc will always defend myself. I will never make apologies for doing this, as this is my right to do so. And yes I have had many an altercation on this site, but it has always turned out OK, 'cos at the end of the day we are adults and we have choices etc. So I never flight I will always fight and this is my right. Oops seems I've just written yet another Birthday card verse. PS for what it's worth, I unreservedly apologise to any members, staff etc whom I may have angered of lately, not for my stance but for my method of retaliation.

I find once I only have to make my point once.

Deer Suiside You appeer to have writtun once twice. Pleese get yur speling and grammer write. Bada Bing Ralph.

sorry, I was once, twice, three times a laden

My family background was a positive one. The only time we all argued was at Sunday lunch and outsiders who attended these lunches often said afterwards, "How do you cope? All this arguing and rowing and losing temper..." but what they didnt understand was that my family is very close knit. The spats we had were just that, spats and there was no longstanding seeting resentment. Yes, I did have massive arguments with my Dad but that was part of growing up. Last year I would fight fire with fire to my detriment, but now, I only react if I feel I have to.

As a middle child - who has been the youngest before my two younger siblings arrived - then the middle - and then the eldest after the eldest left home - big age difference - I've had a really mixed bag of experiences as far as family is concerned I've always been the quiet one funnily enough and always seen the funny side of things which I know can wind some poeple up even more and can get me into all kinds of mischief - I think thats why I go quiet ( and hide under my desk) but I have found the best the way to deal with anything that cannot be solved by common sense - is to take as you find and leave in the same way if you can - if you can't do that then you should at least try to make everyone feel as if they came out of with something positive - and be prepared to admit that even you can get things wrong but that takes time and we dont seem to have for ourselves let alone others do we ? I respect people who think differently to me because its their point of view and sometimes by listening I can learn from them but I respect them even more if they accept that I am entitled to my own thoughts upon what ever as well and can agree to disagree with me As to the Jaffa cake thing - that was unique to here and those involved and to that one point of time Liana - a bit like I've never seen the great wall of china so how can I comprehend what it really looks like - your explaining it helps (not the great wall of China but the jaffa cake thing) but for those who were not aware then it would seem sinister if not evil - by putting your self into the lack of comprehension of others I think you'd see that Maybe this site should come with a health and well being warning ! its good to have you back Liana btw and I still think Fish is right about the colour scheme here

I also dont think its a case of being a 'fighter or a flighter' as I'm aware only too well that we all take different stances at different times - we compensate ever way depending upon the situation - as we take into account not just our own experineces but awareness of the here and now and the others - so whilst I might fight today tomorrow a different set of circumstances may offer themselves and I may act totally differently - so its not a case of being a 'fighter or flighter' but of what is happening when, where, with whom and why -it isn't a case of I will act like this because I'm a fighter - its more of a case of I act like this at this point in time with this person because of ............ can I go back to being the six inch person with wings now please - weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee and pleads total insanity

Liana - point taken. The sinister overtones are likely a product of my imagination, although I feel it is possible someone could use the phrase in a contemptuous way. Let me propose something. Do we all desire mastery, one way or another? And when I say mastery, I mean mastery over one's own destiny, and, in one's head, the world. Like 'master of all your survey' - the kind of mastery that allows us to work it down to a simple formula. A fighter likes to stand their ground and denounce the other one - mastery, for them, comes through a claim over reason or rationality in the argument, or for having the most verbal flair. Contempt and disgust are methods of attaining mastery - they artificially place oneself above the persons or arguments that disagree with them. For someone like Tom, who knows very well that when both parties desire mastery, none will get the submission from the other, he attains that mastery by recognising the significance of the argument as being miniscule. "Life's too short to listen to idiots." Even with this comment however - while it directly attacks no one, it reduces, in his own mind, the worth of the arguers. Qu'est ce que vous dit?

Tom I really go for your way of thinking in most if not all of your reads not saying that I could be entirely the same but>>>wish. My son has been married 30ys last week a big achievement this day and age and lovely to see as I told them both in a card even though I don't get on with my daughter-in-law she has been a good wife to him so what more could a mother want for her son. I won't start on my life as most of you have heard it all before probably more than once, I will say this if I didn't have the people on here to bore the pants off there is nothing else in my life, a rare occasion but a friend of my daughters as my daughter wouldn't bother, rang me to tell me it was her 40th birthday then asked me how I was and because of the way I was feeling I just said "I'm thinking of giving up the ghost" shocked she said "why's that" and my reply was " because I'v had enough and don't feel like carrying on any longer" know it was wicked but was ment, but as I am writing this now don't really know what category to put myself in a coward or a fighter...

Jay, with the memory of meeting you and the image of your bright, vivacious face and mischievous spirit, I would put you firmly in fighter mode. Yet there are times that we lack the energy to fight and the flight desired is mostly from ourselves and our perceived helplessness. Henstoat, I think the mastery to which you allude is more akin to stubborness/bloody-mindedness. The true 'masters of their own destinies' I have experienced in life have had a peculiar type of serenity in their personalities that has no need for pointless aggression. They wend their way calmly and with little disruption, except when it is needed. They have that look of secrecy in their eyes, as if they have the key to something we lesser mortals can only aspire to. Justyn, what a brave little boy you sound...a plucky little chap who refused to be a victim. Ice, I understand about feisty and noisy families; I have one too and outsiders often find us blunt and sometimes terrifying. Most of the family are fairly confrontational and I have my moments too, although it can be exhausting. However, it means very little in the scheme of things; we bellow and insult one another but there is a huge amount of love there...I'm sure you can relate to that... Ralph, you sheepish reprobate....they say impersonation is the sincerest form of flattery. So do you confront situations or meekly walk away? I am ignoring forum situations before you accuse me of being sarcastic; I mean REAL life.... Pioden, I am a middle child too...we are the broody ones who take in all the information. Where is everyone else in their family? Does it make a difference? Hello there Liana. I do like Jaffa cakes. Unfortunately my bottom does not but hey, life's too short....