"AJ - any half-interesting insult would put you on too high a pedestal. You have to *earn* the titles others give you.
For now, 'bitter old fruitloop' is all you're getting. And I'm being more than generous. Some people would say that's a waste of a good 'fruitloop'."
What's the matter brown nose........did somebody pinch your dictionary? Never mind I am a patient lady and shall eagerly await your next erudite response!
The bitter, old fruitloop smiles serenely. PS am concerned though that the "bearded lady" was missing from your description.
Really littledick, perhaps if you search more thoroughly through your Oxford dictionary you may just come up with something intelligent to proliferate your single cell brain.
Do feel free to post again........you amuse me!
"I keep wanting to contribute constructively to the argument, but I also really want to slag off AJ, even though it's more of the personal sniping we all abhor. I can't help it. Any site that keeps her out is doing itself a favour as far as I'm concerned, in the same way as a school that kicks out the sixth former who insists on setting fire to the classrooms and beating the shit out of the younger years ;-)"
Aw shucks littlecock glad you appreciate my intellect in that I reached the sixth form!
And with regards you contributing constructively, forget it sunshine, my Down's Syndrome son has more intelligence in his backside than you will ever be able to attain in your narrow minded, single cell brain.
But please feel free to come back again with some more of your constructive light weight and witless drivel. After all every community needs its idiots.
PS what colour lipstick was it you wore at the ABC do.........as I must remember never to buy any!! Have a nice day. :)
actually i think i might agree with you hen ... i am just slightly shaky on the definition of "freedom of speech" ... does it mean everyone is free to say whatever they like regardless of the consequences/effect on others ... or does it mean there ought to be a culture of freedom to express thought and opinion whilst being heard and respected and without being attacked for it? ... or is an attack also deemed to be free speech?
i am a bit confused ...
i am not sure about survival of the fittest ... i think rather it is survival of the most fitting ... and i mean that is true of both abc and uka as far as i can see ... and also is something i have seen in any social group anywhere ...
That would be Magdalena Ventura of Abruzzi, I think.
Her portrait was painted for King Phillip III in 1631
and she hangs in a private collection in Toledo.
i am not sure about survival of the fittest ... i think rather it is survival of the most fitting ... and i mean that is true of both abc and uka as far as i can see ... and also is something i have seen in any social group anywhere ...
appreciate your wise thoughts fish,..
--I believe there is a limit beyond which free speech cannot go, but it's a limit that's very seldom mentioned. It's the point where free speech begins to collide with the right to privacy. I don't think there are any other conditions to free speech. I've got a right to say and believe anything I please, but I haven't got a right to press it on anybody else. .... Nobody's got a right to be a nuisance to his neighbors.
- H.L. Mencken--
no, no, no. che (the liverpool blueyonder) is tony kinsella, not greco.
sheesh.
I've posted this link before
http://www.shift.com/blog/profile.html?member=scala
as for uka v abc I don't care. uka is for those that need protection. It also offers a route for self-publication and produces an anthology. abc does neither and, as such, I prefer abc.
uka also, so I hear, has some particularly nasty characters who stay 'nice' on the surface but are quite menacing in the background. The self-moderation of abc prevents that, I hope.
With regard to sniping, I hope you are not referring to the comments I made in the philip thread on abc. Despite what Andorra, or whoever it was, said about not wanting a phone no so as not to intrude i think the posts i have just read on uka prove there was a demand. My post was designed to show those people how to make contact. At the same time, of course, I poured scorn on their naivety, for that is what it is.
I *do* get rather tired of attempts at thread manipulation and general subterfuge on the web which is why I seem so harsh at times (ie the philip thread ... but you have to read the background and his other threads ... making a call on the one post is very silly) and that is why I will not post on uka.
I do not believe that forum posts and journals should have an edit facility. It is a form of cheating, a modifying of history. A prominent member of UKA (who is most forciferous in his defence of *his* community) not only writes under another name but has conversations with himself about his work. When caught out a while ago, by forgetting to change his name, the journal posts pointing this out were deleted by the member (who also moderates a forum)
Make your choice people, go to uka where you will never receive an adverse coment on your work (everyone is too shit scared) and where you will be encouraged to get published by Bluechrome and where, apparently, there is no subterfuge or nastiness (check out the threads about the one starrers .... and that will get worse now that thought cafe has closed and its yank poets migrate onto another site for their usual rhyming slagfest)
Or stick with the rough and tumble of abc. Certainly, anyone trying to manipulate here gets found out pretty quickly.
I get the idea that because abc members question motive and uka do not that abc is being taken to task albeit under the guise of another post.
Thread manipulation anyone?
Well, she does - although was kidding a little by using that word. You can probably find her portrait- it's pretty gruesome - if you google her name - or even 'bearded lady'. It's a very famous painting. She had seven children, the last - so they claim but it is a most extraordinary portrait; can't help wondering what the artist was doing, maybe using several different models - at 52.
The portrait was arranged by a kind of local ruler - Viceroy of Naples, so that King Phillip might have his attention drawn (so to speak).
Take a look - it's amazing! (beyond belief, in fact)
Well, a noble attempt Andrea. I don't see why anyone shouldn't use both, or have a preference for either one without feeling the need to slag off the other. For my part, I thought UKA had a lot of good ideas but I have to confess that I got a sour taste in my mouth when one of the forum moderators emailed me, welcoming me to the site and telling me how much friendlier it was than abc. That, for me, felt unneccessary and bitchy.
When thoughtcafe came along and people started getting partisan, my view was always that it was a complementary site, not a competitive one. Same with UKA - criticising either site because it is different to the other seems a pointless exercise - if they were the same, there'd be no point in both.
If someone was having a conversation under a pseudonym about their own work, then that's a bit sad, but we've had our share of self-promoters here on abc too, don't forget.
Both abc and uka have been hospitable sites toward me. I first posted on abc and found the writing excellent, and the forums generally interesting.
During the down time of abc, I moved my attentions to uka. I've maintained archives, and will add future pieces, at both places. For me, the forums at abc are not only larger and more varied, but generally more lively than at uka. However, I do think the ability to comment, and get commentary, at uka gives it a decided advantage in the area of a writing site also functioning as a workshop site. As for the absence of adverse comments, well I don't know so much about adverse, but there are a number of commenters who make multiple suggestions for the revision of a piece, who offer detailed, line-by-line criticism. As I re-read this post, and that of Stormy, I think I may be speaking to something different than he. Most of the stuff that occasions new forum postings at both places is more the chatter of small town cafes, the banter of bars, and generally it's well intentioned. Social. What comes out of a community. I'm really just offering that as writing sites, at both abc and uka, I've found a lot to like, and not much that's negative.
I'm wondering as to the point of closing a thread on UKA so it can no longer be added to (and yet leaving it up so that people can read it), then posting it again on ABC? It's almost like an invitation to slag each other off. Surely Andrea (you own UKA right?) wouldnt do that though. It's either incredibly naive or extremely manipulative. Cant work out which yet.
I'll agree with Stormy when he says this
< uka also, so I hear, has some particularly nasty characters who stay 'nice' on the surface but are quite menacing in the background. The self-moderation of abc prevents that, I hope.>
Still, look at me, falling the trap. Tut tut.
Stormy, his team is thrashed so he takes it out on everyone else :-P
I've been on both sites and there's good and bad points to both. That doesn't mean that people who post or one or the other are better or worse, the sites are just different.
Stormy, the point that seems lost on you is that if someone has something very critical to say about another person's work, there is a private message that they can use rather than slate in public. The forums here are more lively & there is more variety, I can't see the problem in using both & not having a preference.
First of all apologies for taking some time to answer this lot! My computer at home blew up on Friday and the man who fixes things was unable to come around until later this week. This left me cut off for the first time in years. I went on two very long walks instead and didn't worry...much.
In any case I can only repeat some of what has been said already. Whilst UKA and ABC have some things in common, we also have a number of differences. Those are to be welcomed. They allow choice for the users and I am very happy with that. We have always allowed UKA to have space to advertise its comps etc on here and they have reciprocated very well.
As far as I'm concerned, no probs. OK?
I've posted three pieces of writing on UKA recently (all of which are on here too) and I've been surprisingly pleased with the feedback on all of them. It's not been unduly sycophantic and has highlighted perceived weaknesses too. This feedback is appended to my stories and well-flagged so that I don't have to go searching discussion groups to see whether or not anyone has responded. The writing is, for me, easier to read especially for long-ish stories as much more fits on a single page. I've been disappointed recently on ABCTales with the lack of readers; some pieces drop out of the latest 100 with only four or five reads.
Having said that I love how "open" ABCTales is and the genuine sense of community which is engendered when people share their hurts and vulnerability as well as a lot of scurrilous and funny stuff. Plenty of room for us all on both forums (or, as I'd say on UKA, both fora).
At least three good reasons to use both, if it suits you, then(?)
Space and good feedback on one.
Your own community on the other.
(One can always ignore advice
which is iffy, blithe or nice, can't one(?))
*scuttles off to find bearded lady pic*
glad you liked the jam andrea!
i think all this ought to be got into perspective ... it doesnt MATTER ... use abc use uka use both ... do what you want ... get the best out of either or both ... what's the problem?
my impression is that abc gets more slagging off on uka than vice versa ... but actually IT MEANS NOTHING ...
i find it hiliarious that egriff had conversations with himself about his own work ... really that is so FUNNY ... come on guys see it for what it is ... a glorious ridiculous battle of egos ... priceless ...
There you go! It's like the CEOs of Adidas and Nike shaking hands and admitting that they both go running in each others trainers...
Both sites have enough internal bickering without taking the fights outside.
Halleluljah Fishy... it really doesnt matter.
I too am a bit lost as to why you posted this Andrea though... Uka gets very little flak here... and there was certainly none prior to this thread. I do hope it stays that way...
I have looked at ukauthors and i am registered member but i have never used it. I think the reason for that is it was a bit intimidating for me seeing a lot of the same names who used this site over there. I think i was a bit scared of being rejected in a way and being seen as crap writer or something like that, and i didn't want that to extend over here. There are a lot of capable writers using this site and other people who i have directed towards here say the same and obvioulsey the same can be said about UK authors.
Don't think I'll ever understand the human race. For example, can somebody explain this:
On one of the current ABC threads we have people being quite brutal about each other's football teams, and no one seems to take real offence, even though we know that for many people football is much more important than life or death (to misquote the late great Bill Shankly).
On this thread however we are told we must not slag off UKA or ABC. I can see why because when people do slag off ABC or UKA some folk clearly get upset and that is very undesirable.
What I don't understand is this. Why do people take offence when the subject is websites for writers, but not when the subject is football teams, even though many of us feel passionately about both? Isn't there an inconsistency here? How do these apparently contradictory rules of behaviour arise?
Felicity - now THAT'S finally something of interest to me on this thread! *blushes*
Liana can tell Purple what I look like - a gentleman never describes himself...
I've been using UKA mainly for quite a while now, not because I've 'deserted' ABC, it's just that UKA suits my way of working better. I've never been one much for forums anywhere - mainly because I don't have the time to make any regular contribution. On UKA it's much easier to give and receive comments on writing - at the point of each piece of work - which is much more useful to me (and believe me, they're not all superficial praise, but they are usually constructive).
Having said that, I have been involved with ABC almost from the beginning and the encouragement and support I've had (and I hope have given) has always been great. I've been involved with a lot of the live events which have been highlights for me and have given me the opportunity to meet some of the amazing characters whose words grace this site.
People come and go of course, that's life, but the co-existence of ABC and UKA should be a cause for celebration for writers and readers everywhere - life was a hell of a lot more isolated for writers before their existence.
We all find places where we're most comfortable or challenged, accepted or marginalised, praised or ridiculed. The important thing is to have these places to go to and be thankful that people are prepared to run them - it ain't an easy job. If either ABC or UKA should disappear it would be a sad day for all of us.
Gettin' off me high horse now - John.
I'm obviously writing in a personal capacity here but if ABC get's slagged off by disgruntled people on UKA I'm quite happy, it's all free publicity.
I use both sites. They offer different things and, if things continue move in positive directions at ABC, these difference will increase a lot over the next year or so.
UKA is basically an online writers group. In my opinion a pretty good one, with most of the pros and cons that affect offline writers groups.
ABC also has a writers group element but is, from my point of view, an online community that is drawn together through writing and also has a wider 'social' remit, which is going to develop more in the near future.
"After all every community needs its idiots."
How long have you held the position?
Oh, and incidentally - using Down's Syndrome as a fast track to a joke/insult? Nice. Real nice. Like when you proposed showing the parents of murdered children what we were saying in the ABC threads, so they'd get upset and you could blame it on the posters. Smooooooth.
Seriously though - Fish, I see what you're saying. I've always had that problem with the phrase 'freedom of speech' too. If everyone's allowed to say what they want without consequence, isn't that basically the same as everyone becoming trolls, so we don't know who's said what? Freedom of speech, just like freedom of action, seems to be something best attained through cooperation and mediation, but the lines are hazy, just as with any ideological boundaries. It's something to be debated over, but I don't like a blanket 'yes' to everything.
I've only read the odd line about UKA on here, and nothing that anyone would worry about I'm sure, but I haven't been around for long.
I am still new to the idea of posting work on the internet, and this site has given me so much to think about. It's all part of the whole picture that you get people messing about on sites like this and to my mind it's an education. I can see the irritation value may vary, but in a good online community it should work itself out alright. (However, if you feel that you've been educated regarding trolls for long enough and want to be rid of all that I can understand it - but what aspect of life is hassle free? It's all part of the dynamics of creativity.)
In my short time I have seen people changing and responding to others' words in a way that I find pleasing and sociable and the environment here is very nurturing and caring on the whole. The constant watch of the editors is reassuring and stabilising. It encourages people to reflect on their roles on the forums in a subtle but effective way.
I haven't used UKA yet, though the occasional glance shows me names that I come across over here. I personally wanted to find my way in my first online community before launching into another, confidence and all that.
My feeling is that what these sites are achieving speaks for itself inspite of difficulties. I don't think anyone would say that the pests are the winners in the end. The best writing wins through everything.
As we are here I would like to thank a few people who are making my online life interesting, passionate, creative, enjoyable, diverting, amusing, inspiring, motivating and fun.
Thank you Liana, Fish, Andrew, Stephen d, Purple, Missi, Flash, Tony, Mark, Rachel, Jude, Neil, John, Karl, Drew and anyone else whose name I can't bring to mind instantly, but who has exchanged words with me here.
I thank you all for filtering through any of my cr*p and finding the best. You are all like those porous rocks that filter the mountain rain into the sparkling mineral water that is the stuff of life. (hey, that's a great bit of sh*t isn't it!)
Love you all
Emma
No, Andrew, Liana can't.
*sobs*
Is there any resemblance in the Therapist?
Here's how I have imagined you Andrew, from your posts...
(OK letting myself in for a load a laughs here)...
Andrew is about 5ft9in and has mid-brown hair, cut in a fairly neat gents cut, but not using clippers. He is of slim build. He probably wears glasses. I would guess he's between 38-48yrs old, but younger at heart. He's got a funny face, in the nice sense of the word, quirky perhaps. The most intelligent people have asymetrical faces, and Andrew is evidently one of those people. He wears a long coat and carries a briefcase. He tries to be clean shaven, but doesn't always succeed. He has a very professional demeanor and always looks busy and this is entirely authentic in his case. He drives an oldish Japanese two door car, which is a bit neglected and lived in or perhaps an N reg Volvo. When he smiles you never quite know what he's smiling at, something he's thought of, or something he's seen in the distance. He stares at everyone on his way to work, sussing out their lives from what he sees. He takes up a lot of space in bookshops, because of his long coat and briefcase, which he insists on putting on the floor about two feet away from where he's standing. People are too intimidated to stand close to him as he looks so clever and all-knowing. Kids might point at him in the street though, on account of his asymetrical face. But he always smiles back at them, or is he smiling at something else, and this puzzles them.
there is a level of moderation on these forums. I have removed posts or part of posts in the past and will do so again when they break the law. Otherwise, you're all adults and should behave yourselves better at times. But most of the time, you are all wonderful. It's a sunny day, be happy.
I have to say I agree with 'marie'. There is no point in closing a thread on UKA because it's deemed unacceptable then re-posting it on here. It has an air of destruction about it. I've said before, and I'll repeat myself here, any website that doesn't reflect the true composition of the community it purports to represent is a sham, and inevitably will have 'social' problems.
Well... thank you to everyone for the hugely supportive emails, you can't imagine how nice it was to feel that appreciated - however, appreciation by the abc users was never really in any doubt. You're (in the main!) a good bunch.
However, what I said still stands (though I am actually not as angry as I was on Monday thank goodness).
Abc is a fine fine place, and as Tony says, it moderates itself very well, and that policy shouldnt, and I hope wont, change.
I shall of *course* continue to read the work on the site, and I look forward to doing so. It's just the rest (and looking at the forums this morning I am reminded of at least part of the reason WHY) that I will no longer be joining in with. I have a load of University work to get on with (and although it doesnt pay me either, it will do one day) and three gorgeous kids to waste time on rather than in here... :o)
Emma - Andrew is lovely, tell Purp to go for it. (38 - 48 is a bit harsh though, as is the volvo whatsit. He's younger and a lot trendier than your description.)
Storms - no, its definitely the right decision and I'll see you next month mate.
The only result of posting it on here as well as on UKA is that relative newcomers become aware of the close relationship of the two sites and their members. However, this negative info. doesn't really help the cause.
and i think its good to remember that life can put us under pressure and sometimes we can say things that might be a bit out of order *crikey* but of course the person who wrote it might have had a bad day or somink like that. It is worth remembering this and maybe not jumping the gun and crucifying people. We are only human beings we do get under pressure and say things we don't mean other wise we wouldn't be humans. Unfortunetly of course comments are recorded and can be pulled up in 'evidence' so to speak but we should all really remember that like in life we move on from the things we say or do that we dont like. Everyone even the queen and pope say things that they wish they had never, heck i would even bet a couple of buttons that the 'good' president and our 'priminister' have said things they regret and would be first to admit so *ha ha*. And of course including me, as if anyone needs told this. so we are all guilty but what maybe makes a vibrant cool online community is the realization that 'yeah' ok he or she said something that didnt quite fit in but come on lets just forget about and move on............anyway nuff of my rambling have a nice day all....
Couldn't agree more, John. That's why I feel so strongly that members of *both* sites should show respect to those who keep *both* sites running, putting in so much of their time and energy behind the scenes.
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