Plot Is King ...

i liked that

The Odyssey has the plot that everyone else copies and condenses doesn't it?? Quest narratives have plot: someone wants something, goes to find it, finds it (or doesn't), changes (or doesn't)

I take it back, everything has a plot! (I am sitting here trying to type up the last chapter of my book, which I have no intention of sending anywhere but feel I must finish because it's like a donkey on my back. Then I want to get on with something new.) Over to you d bes for some quotes from Birth of A Salesman.

In "The Seven Basic Plots" Christopher Booker noted the following elements in what he calls the "Quest" plot, of which "The Odyssey" was an example: THE CALL: Some place has become oppressive, and the hero recognises that he can only rectify matters by making a difficult journey. He is given supernatural and visionary direction. THE JOURNEY: Including ordeals, monsters, temptations, thrilling escapes. ARRIVAL AND FRUSTRATION: New obstacles loom up. THE FINAL ORDEALS: A last series of tests. THE GOAL: After a last thrilling escape from death, the kingdom, princess, or life-transforming treasure are finally won - with an assurance of renewed life. What's that if it's not a plot? d.beswetherick.

THE JOURNEY: Including ordeals, monsters, temptations, thrilling escapes. ARRIVAL AND FRUSTRATION: New obstacles loom up. THE FINAL ORDEALS: A last series of tests. Aren't all these the same thing?

It sounds to me like fish's agent's waffly nonsense. What's the difference between a test, an ordeal, and an obstacle? Exactly. The above could apply to anything, couldn't it? My day at work was an Odyssey then. And if something can be applied to anything it's redundant.

I agree with what you just said Drew, but I still stand with my from earlier: "Quest narratives have plot: someone wants something, goes to find it, finds it (or doesn't), changes (or doesn't)"

Yes they are, but these phases occur as separate events in this type of story. You can't just monotonously face one problem after another without an escalation. For example, Jason faces all sorts of challenges on his way to Colchis to fetch the golden fleece, but when he gets there the King, who owns the fleece sets him a new challenge, to fight dragons. This is different, though, because he has fallen in love with the King's daughter, who uses her magic to help him.

Now, stop arguing with me and get and type that last chapter of your book.

Haha. I love you, you know that. You know, I have an O level, A level, and degree in English but I feel so dumb. If I set my brain to thinking about it then all criticism seems to be pretty meaningless. It is impossible to say why something works and it doesn't. And now I think everything must have a plot. Oh. I do have to go know. Gary has just returned from a quest for some chips.

Not an odyssey. Unless he faced an obstacle, an ordeal, and a test on the way.

It sounds to me as though there's not much amis with fish's book and the editor has got smelly socks.

He went via the dentist's.

...agent, I meant, of course....(shows wot I know!)

lol

Send them that lovely quotation by James - what is plot but the illumination of character? Having said that - maybe its worth a try. Chandler said that you should try to have something every six pages which moves the plot in a different direction - a diamond on every page and a plot development every six pages. I'm far more interested in digression than plot, myself, but I think you do need some in order to get published. As the Robert McKee character says in Adaptation "You've got to go back and put the drama in. Your characters must change and that change has to come from within."

And according to some, it is Our Love, not Plot.

you waffle, yaffle? ... that stuff from chandler sounds very ... prescriptive ... a diamond on every page? ... wot? bugger and damn to plot ... it makes me cross ...

Chandler also said "When in doubt, have a man come through a door with a gun in his hand" If you really want to be published and sold in airports, spend a good sized paragraph describing the gun.

fish, I've had the same problem. I was told that 'Darts' has no plot and it was speaking to Andrew that helped and I tagged a bit of a plot on it, not a diamond but an evil fawn the characters meet in a closet at the beginning who haunts them through the book, and then later a trip to the moon. The publishers condition of publication was a 'plot' and now I guess it's coming out. But, you know, being published is a horrible horrible thing. And it makes you far more miserable than you could imagine. And my publishers are only small. So imagine how awful it would be if you were actually sucessful. You know, my biggest dread now is that they will want to have a launch party. I know they have for their other books, and I am thinking already how I can get out of it without seeming difficult. But of course the whole thing is what I aim for too. But plots... They are good. I like what Murakami does with plots. He was influenced by Chandler - A Wild Sheep Chase is almost the plot of The Big Sleep. And he was also influenced by Brautigan who didn't like plots. And somehow merges the two. Andrew, you will know, the person who dies at the beginning of A Wild Sheep Chase, who is that and does it have any relation to the plot? And also I like what Coupland does with plots, how he throws in dramatic events. The major terrorist incident when Eleanor Rigby goes to Frankfurt, the car crash and hold up in All Families are Psychotic. But fish, blockbuster plots are dull and best avoided. I'm totally bored by this kind of book and they dominate the charts. So what I'm saying is, you can add little bits that fool the reader that there is a plot without necessaryily having one. Andrew's diamonds really. (I've just woken up - sorry.) ((Are you going to enter the Leicester Libraries competition.))

'necessaryily' Please excuse this word.

dear drew ... i can't be any more miserable ... and anyway it is so highly unlikely that i will be able to shoehorn any plot into either book that there is no immediate danger of being published anyway ... periodically i just decide i am not a writer ... have no business thinking i am a writer ... i wont BE a writer anymore and then spend some time thinking how i could make an honest (plot free) and somehow virtuous and practical living doing something else ... i am writing for kids and apparently Kids Demand Plots ... presently my daughter (12) is completely lost in Inkheart ... and when she is telling me about it ... all shiny eyed ... she says things like ... it's a brilliant story ... this happens and that happens and its so exciting! ... etc blah and i just want to poke her with a pencil very hard ... so i think plot IS necessary ... and i will have to have some or get a job renovating houses ... (what leicester libs comp?)

ha, well I know all those feeling exactly. I hate it when other people tell me how fantastic other writers are. My brother is particularly good at this. People are generally good at this in general. I took Serendipity, a short story collection one of my stories was in, to work. One person snatched it out of my hand, skimmed through it to see if I had written any sex scenes, I hadn't. But they did find another writer's story had swearing in capital letters which was brilliant, which they then photocopied and passed around the office. With me, the writing is the only bit that makes me happy. So all those other things you talk about are not about writing, an agent telling you about plot etc. Enjoy the writing... what to do with your life to earn a crust, I have the same problem. I hate that I work in a call centre. It's up to me to sort it out but I have no skills. My answer currently is to buy premium bonds and cross my fingers and I've decided more or less to not send any more stuff off, not that I did much of it anyway.

So plots are always the same, bar circumstance... Did anyone tell Joyce that the odessey doesn't have a plot? I can see the agent: "It's well written, I won't deny it, but where's the plot, man? What's it about?" [%sig%]

firstly, I have to say that I'm not as well read as those above and haven't studied writing to any degree, I just write stories which means, essentially, they are plot based. Now I may be being naive but that's what I think a 'story' is for, otherwise it's a series of observations or anecdotes or it's a description of a time or a place perhaps. I'm not saying that a BOOK has to be plot based but a STORY does, well it does to me anyway. The first thing I would ask of someone who wanted to write a story is "what happens?" rather than "what's it about?" maybe that's why I havent been published yet.... d'you ever get the feeling you're not getting something?

Andrew mentioned in another thread about if you want to write good short stories then it's probably best to read a lot. I'm currently reading 'Feel', the Robbie Williams book, and what is surprising, but shouldn't be, is how much time he is listening to music, how he always has his computer with him. When writing a song he will say I want to sound like and list 30 people. Of course, the story is important, but so is the way you tell it. Carver is a genius short story teller, but if you asked what his stories were about you wouldn't nail it. For example, 'Fat', a fat man goes into a restaurant and has a meal. That's it in terms of plot. Any single author short story collection you pick up, the style will hit you over the head, look at Arthur Bradford, A M Homes, George Saunders, James Kelman, Carver, Saki, Alasdair Grey, Dan Rhodes, Conan Doyal and so on. What is the biggest problem for 90 % of the stuff I read online is that it has no style. I mean, it is all very O Henry, and it is boring. I mean, just shoot me.

Waffle is what makes me screw up my philosophy essays but it is what puts the essential quirky eccentricity into my life who needs a plot when one has candy-floss, fancy cufflinks, coloured contact lenses and a drunken smile?

i know ... i will give up writing for kids - they are a bunch of demanding buggers ... and i will write lovely plotless waffly nonsense for grown ups ...

Hello Fish, I sympathise with you so much, humph. You sound like you need a big cuddle in front of a lovely log fire, a stack of abc old hacks to talk to over lots of alcohol (not being specific as don't know your fav. tipple). Y'know it's interesting for me, at the bottom of the heap of people who think they'd like to communicate something with words, to read the above and contemplate it all as pearls of wisdom from those who are admirably far advanced along the road to publication or, as in Drew's case, having arrived. I really want to know - what is your book ABOUT, and can't you simply extract WHAT HAPPENS, and ink it in bold, weight it? Can you add more twists and turns, more surprises and unexpected events without losing what you obviously treasure so much in what you have written so far? My oldest son is an avid reader and, like your daughter, it's the fascination of the extraordinary EVENTS that get him excited - kids are beings of action, movement and the here and now, they like to travel with it. I'm currently working over a short story for the umpteenth time that has all the plot necessary, indeed the plot is a bold as brass, and that, plus the feel of the whole thing is what I started with - a 'happening' that I thought I could have fun describing. However, now I am having trouble integrating all other elements into the whole, the detail, mainly concerning character, needs to work. So far I don't think I've neglected plot in my short stories, but whole swathes of other probs confront me all the time...like not sitting down and doing it often enough, for one. I hate failing, writing is so transparent a reflection of one's ability and I know I have to fail so much to learn...Andrew's been nagging me about it. I'm just thinking about some Margaret Atwood short stories I read recently. Well, y'know, sometimes she seems to use the most fascinating time-schemes that seem to be folded over each other and unravel like you would straighten out that folded cloth, what happening was secretly lurking inside that mysterious fold?...it's almost as though the timescale is the plot, the structure, as she is in so deep with all the descriptive and character elements from the start, as though you have been reading about the people/person for pages and pages before. Anyway, I am just waffling here about whether a time-scheme can help to support the plot in varying degrees. Hmm, back to the story...

"periodically i just decide i am not a writer ... have no business thinking i am a writer ... i wont BE a writer anymore and then spend some time thinking how i could make an honest (plot free) and somehow virtuous and practical living doing something else ..." Do you want to *be* a writer? What you really want, surely, is to be able to make your writing as central to your financial life as it is to your emotional life. But who would want to 'be' a writer, where being a writer seems to consist of joining a group of ultimately self-serving individuals, who ooze pretension in everything they do, moan endlessly about the state of their own profession and come out with twattish soundbite fuckwittery like 'Plot Is King'? Sneak in under the net, Fishy. Do things your way, but try to make them *think* you're doing it their way. It's surely got nowt to do with how good a writer you are, and everything to do with how cunning you can be.

and I mustn't hyphenate willy-nilly.

Yeah, there's a lot in what you say, Hen...the greatest authors carve out their own way, against the crowd, so to speak...Woolf et al. But some compromise may well be inevitable in today's world of children's publishing eh? The times in which we live, oh, the times..

"where being a writer seems to consist of joining a group of ultimately self-serving individuals, who ooze pretension in everything they do, moan endlessly about the state of their own profession and come out with twattish soundbite fuckwittery like 'Plot Is King'" I don't think this place exists John, and after all it was an agent who might have said this which is another sub-species. I never really 'get' the concept of agents. But I do agree whole-heartedly with this: "Sneak in under the net, Fishy. Do things your way, but try to make them *think* you're doing it their way. It's surely got nowt to do with how good a writer you are, and everything to do with how cunning you can be." Fish, don't compromise, or if you do, do it in a way that makes you happy with what you're doing. I regard some people on here as highly as any published writers. The published bit has little to do with being a writer.

ye gads ... this is all interesting stuff! in no order whatsoever ... i read and i read until my eyeballs fall out and thinking about what i like ... these things are NOT plot driven ... they are character driven and largely plotless ... this is what i love to read ... i like to trundle around inside someone's head and have their thoughts and feelings ... FEELINGS mainly ... BE a writer? ... no ta ... the very thought of saying "what do you do?" ... "I'm a writer" makes a great big neon sign above my head flash "******!!!!!!" with a big arrow pointing down at my head... but on a good day i do at least and probably more writing work than i do money earning work ... but i will say "i teach murderers" if someone asks me what i do ... thank god ... (anyway that sounds a lot more interesting i think) ... i dont like the rollicking plotty blockbusters ... as for being cunning ... it's a nice idea ... hmmmm .... wouldnt it be much easier not to even think about it all? ... my 17 year old tells me his life plan is to get very very very fit and jump around on top of buildings ... and emma .... quite right about the fire ...

Something Drew said to me in a hotel room once made more sense than I think almost anything else anyone has ever said to me in my life. "Don't assume that having a book in your hand that you've written will make you feel like a writer" I don't feel like a writer all the time, because mostly what I can see is the gap between what I want the page to say and do and what I can actually make it do, but there are moments when it does come off and it really works, and hell - that feels like something of worth, published or not. (The answer is not, by the way) Write what you want to write, write what you want to read. Since I decided to do that and nothing else two years ago, I've been much happier in my writing, because it has gone back to what it always used to be - a doorway to other worlds, other people. Chandler's idea isn't so much a formulaic prescription as a suggestion to the writer - if you go over your manuscript and nothing has happened in six pages, think of that being much the same as watching a film where nothing happens for six minutes. Some people like that sort of film, but most people don't. Now, if you're dumb, you make novels and films where something happens every two minutes and you make a lot of money; but you can smuggle in five minutes of style and pleasure, as long as you keep something happening regularly. I write precisely the way Murakami writes, because it really works for me, it gives me the most pleasure - write a chapter, then write another, then another. Somewhere along the way, some of the strands just come together on their own - write it all until its done, THEN and only THEN do the rewrites and polishes to make it different. There's a balance, I think, Fish. Sometimes you have to keep what there was about the piece that made you actually want to write it and made you love it. And sometimes you have to, as Fitzgerald said, Kill your darlings, and realise that although that's a gorgeous page of writing and it is so fine that it needs to be replaced with something else, which might not be such a good page, but will make the book better. In relation to your novel - give the mum more to do, give the brother some conflict - you've got four characters all living in a house together and stuff only happens to one of them. I know she's the centre and the voice, but maybe the reader could figure out before she does what's going on with other people. Make Mad Hetty seem MORE frightening to the reader, making the bullying nastier, make the escape route of lying about Hetty much more tempting. I think the last third of your book has loads of plot and it moves really well, and there's a false resolution and a realistic ending and everything - look at that and see if you can bring that sort of plotting into the opening and the middle. It's a damn good book, don't lose heart. Drew - email me, I miss you!

I think having a book in my hand written by my good self would at least massage my ego a tad if not make me feel like a writer...unless it was going for 99p in the Works in which case it may precipitate suicidal tendencies... this is one of those grown up, long post threads which are a bit beyond me!

The compromise thing...well, to get your foot in the door....then afterwards everyone will read everything you write and you can really start to do it your way...and write in the manner to which you would like to become accustomed. But I'm probably talking bollocks. Pass the bottle, fish. Got those firelighters handy?

oddly enough I bought some turkish delight today, which lurks in the cupboard, but it's for me ol' ma's birthday. Got half a block of Green & Blacks though, shall I break a chunk or two off for you, fish?

Barbara Pimm didn't have much of a plot in her stories as I recall. What do agents know anyway.

emma! ... i NEVER use firelighters! ... it's heresy! i agree with drew really ... the times i have had things in my hand ... real published things of mine i mean ... i get a feeling almost ... shameful? ... maybe not that but of that family ...fuck knows why that is ... we stayed at a writer's flat in edinburgh when we were up there (don't talk about the bacon ... please ...) and when i asked if i could see his novel ... his second novel ... there were masses and masses of books in the flat i wouldnt have had a hope of finding it .... he grumbled and pulled faces and eventually bent down to the lowest shelf in the furthest corner and pulled out a book that wasn't even spine outwards on the shelf ... he looked agonised and i let him put it back and didnt look at it until he was out ... but i recognise that feeling ... it's squirmy and uncomfortable to watch someone looking at your work ... i bet it's horrible for the reader too though because they maybe feel under pressure to give a favourable reaction ... i wonder if this painful self consciousness would wear off eventually? ... after 5 or 10 books? ... or 20? ... i can't help feeling it's so personal it's like having someone look at you naked or something like that ... oh well actually maybe some people dont mind strangers looking at them naked? ... god i better shut up ... oh no i just thought of something else ... i dont mind reading stuff out ... poems or a short story ... dear oh dear this gets worse ... thank you for the advice about the book andrew ... i am actually writing the second one first if you see what i mean ... compromise ... yes ...

I wasn't going to mention this but ... last week someone turned up to my writing group who wrote poetry - I'm not a great poetry critic but I wasn't over-impressed with what he read out, sort of rural twee, a bit trite and no bite, but pleasant enough - anyway, he told me that one of the "Country Life" type magazines had bought one of his poems for £50 and published it in the magazine. Which is £50 more than I've ever received for ANY of my wondrously varied output. But, later in the pub, another group member asked for a copy of one of my stories, which I happened to have in my folder and, flattered, I handed it over. He then told me that he was going to give it to his girlfriend to read whilst he ... er ... manually pleasured her at the non-reading end, so to speak. sorry I've brought the tone down a bit, I'll ask whether she enjoyed the plot next time I see him.

the non reading end .... HAHAHAHHAA ... that is best description of those parts i have ever heard ...

never mind the bacon, what about the grill?

Hm..this squirming feeling...I think it relates a little to the way we feel about ourselves in photographs, it's a snapshot of something that is actually moving, changing, living and breathing. It is also unchangeable once it's committed to print. I felt like this about the *one* poem I have ever had in print. However, I do feel very differently about other writing, my masters dissertation for example. I am so proud of that damn thing, it took me three years to write and research and it taught me more about structure and discipline than anything else. Once I had the structure and all the technicalities it was wonderful do dance about over it with my personal take on stuff. I do very much take the view (though don't do much about practising it in my creative writing) that there is trememdous value in working your way up, starting with making the tea, y'know...and learning the craft right from the commas to the vocab to etc and then letting yourself loose with what is unique to you, the special things you love to talk about, that drive you and make your heart leap - because you won't succeed in finding the right means to communicate these things unless you learn your trade. I think very much of Benjamin Britten here, a profoundly gifted composer who could have gone all aloof and arty-farty from day one, but no - he worked for the BBC and did soundtracks and incidental music and all that malarky. Then later his work became profound, but the profundity was communicated with such mastery of his means. Now - to Neil's point - hahaha,..you know, this is writing to a specific target...I have also *confession time*, written erotica that people have admitted to going off and er...pleasuring themselves to...and y'know I don't mind that, it means my words enter the head and the body...mmmm, and I want to be able to do this in my writing long-term, albeit in more subtle ways...

Neil, you should be proud of your story! That sounds like a wonderful compliment. Of course, it would be better if he'd invited you into the act in some capacity, but first things first!

Think i should read the whole thread from the beginning. I seem to have lost the plot.

Yes, Emma exactly. I feel that I am somewhere near the bottom of this learning curve. That's what exciting, that I might someday write something that is even remotely good. Which is why I can't understand agents, for new writers at least. They are going to make a percentage of what you make, so of course they are going to push you to be more commercial. Fish, it depends if you feel comfortable with what the agent has said. I've had people say to me, 'you should do this and this' and it made me feel cheap. When I got the acceptance letter for Darts it was long and had loads of criticism but somehow I wasn't bothered about it because a lot of it made sense, and it was quite exciting doing the rewrites. I think you know if something is right, and if it feels right then go for it. If not, hang out. As for compromise, for me at least, the rest of my life is compromise so if I start compromising what I write as well then I'll have nothing left. The last thing I want is to be miserable at work, go home and do writing that makes me miserable as well.

I've always liked E.M. Forster's Explanation of Plot. I Quot. " We have defined story as a narrative of events arranged in their time sequence. Plot is also a narrative of events, the emphasis falling on causality". " The King died and then the queen died" is a story. " The King died and then the queen died of grief" is a Plot. "The queen died, no one knew why, until it was discovered that it was through grief at the death of the King". is a Plot with a mystery in it. I always think of this when thinking about Plot.

Maybe children liking plot so much has something to do with them wanting explanations for everything, looking for structure because the world is so big and mysterious This book I'm reading at the moment, the Hounds of the Morrigan by Pat O'Shea (sorry to keep going on about it but it IS brilliant) blurbs itself as a quest book, with amusing characters. However it strikes me as being ABOUT the amusing characters, and the quest is just a way of joining them together. I don't know whether children like it or not, though it has been reissued lots of times (it is a children's book) I found Harry Potter boring, but I don't know why, other than that I didn't care about any of the characters, not even Hagrid. Marley crying...

Yeah, my son rates Lemony Snicket's books way above the Harry Potters.