War on Terrorism

The world is spherical. Maps are flat. All flat maps will have something out of proportion because it is physically impossible to make a flat map proportional to a spherical world. Hence, the notion of a globe as map, which if done properly, is in proportion. Typically, Greenland gets all the leftover space when making a spherical map into a flat map because nobody cares about Greenland. But it doesn't have to be that way. We could shove it all into Easter Island and then we really would have something. Sorry I missed that episode. Sounds interesting. I've never been to Greenland, but an extraordinary number of phd candidates in anthropology have been there over the years, studying the life cycle of the inhabitants in the belief that it will tell us something about the rest of the world, or if not, at least it will get them a degree and a job. Read Miss Smillia's Feeling of Snow by Peter Hoeg. Miss Smilla is a Greenlander living in Denmark. Some of the book takes place in Greenland. Of course, this is a novel, but it's the only written work about Greenland I know.

Apparently you can either have the countries the right size or the right shape, because, as Justyn says, when you put a globe into a flat map, something has to give. But *and already gritting teeth for smutty comments* isn't size more important than shape ? And what about globes ? They still show a big Greenland and a too small Africa. Anyone read Guns Germs and Steel ? Fantastic book that sets out to explain why Spain conquered south america and not the other way round. The explanations are very interesting and shows how much chance there is on the way the world has ended up.

** absolutely bloody speechless** Am I the only person that thinks this is unbelievable???? Can you actually SUE someone for starting a war?? They better hope that the 7 million starving afghans dont think of sueing Uncle Sam...... Wife of man killed in terror attacks sues bin Laden Osama Bin Laden and the Taliban are being sued by the pregnant wife of a man killed in the World Trade Centre attacks. She is seeking damages that include the loss of her husband's income in what is believed to be the first civil case of its kind. The damages are also for emotional pain she and her children are suffering. Her lawyer James Beasley believes damages could be paid from assets frozen by the US government, reports BBC Online. The suit filed in Manhattan federal court seeks unspecified damages, but Mr Beasley says a jury could award hundreds of millions of dollars.

i've just been to look at my sons unused bedside light globe in the bottom of his wardrobe - next to shin pads and just below unwashed socks. greenland is itsy bitsy on that. I couldn't find Britain. perhaps this is all just a dream. rubs hair above earline in the manner of basil faulty. last week 'we' were doing homework on the pathans of india and needed a map. I found this site was pretty good for maps although, he hastily adds a rider clause, many of them are sourced from the CIA. so they were probably drawn by a schoolboy pretending to be a columbian drug baron. www. bugger . can't remember it and it's not on the drop down. schwarzenegger

The better question is under which part of the US constitution does the President of the US have power to send bombers ? The Constitution gives him authority over the army and navy, but predates air-force and has never been amended. Any particularly sharp person could refer this to the Supreme Court and drag out the proceedings for months. Americans tend to be very twitchy over any adjustment to the Constitution... As I understand, it is lawful for America to defend itself and NATO wording is such that if one member is attacked, that counts as all being attacked. But it wasn't the Taliban who attacked America, it was (still only allegedly) someone who happens to be hiding in their country. What if Bin Laden was holed up in the New Forest, with a thousand men willing to die on his behalf and armed with state of the art weaponary ? would it be us being bombed ?

dodgy maps from the CIA R us hasta the pasta baby

Quite true andrew but if I were a U S government lawyer I would argue as follows: The constitution of the usa was laid down to give congress law making control and to empower the elected president to fulfill certain duties. All presidential decisions have to be approved by congress. The original air force was controlled by the army until 1947 so no ammendment was necessary. Thereafter congress passed an act that created a separate air force and, no doubt in one of the various clauses of this act, it will state that the air force is to be used for defence and acts of war as congress sees fit. or something like that. secondly; congress passed a law or whatever 3 weeks ago to enable Bush to wage war on the terrorists and those nations that seek to hide or support them by any means he sees fit. So, although you are technically correct I suspect the legal framework exists for the president to wage war by air and to attack the taliban or taleban as the bbc insists in spelling it. Your New Forest analogy would be OK if the british government refused to hand over bin laden and his 1000 men. In reality, of course, the british government would cut off the new forest, send in the SAS and it would all be over in 2 or 3 days, state of the art weaponary or no. We might allow the americans to watch I suppose.

I'm a little confused about the money thing.....yes I have and will give to the Afghan collections......and Fire brigade ones because they lost a lot of brave men........but America is the richest country in theb World...................does it need charity?

Liana, yes it's incredible but it reflects what i was banging on about way back. It didn't take long for the ambulance chasers to come out of the woodwork. I suppose some bright lawyer thinks these funds are easy pickings since they are seen to be belong to terrorists and not insurance firms or the airline industries that will eventually go bust when the claims roll in. I do not think any money should be sent to the world's richest nation for this disaster. The unfortunate victims are all dead and their families will be financially recompensed by the governments involved and via litigation in the course of time. It isn't like a natural disasater in a third world state/nation where thousands are homeless and starving and their government hasn't the wherewithal to to fund proper rescue operations let alone go to war. I agree with you. It's madness. It shows you where the woman's priorities lie.

As both England and America have made it clear that this is not a war on Islam, why have they ceased boming operations tonight because it's a Muslim holy day? It's got nothing to do with it. I can't exactly imagine the Taliban respecting one of our holy days. Something else has been on my mind since a previous thread. It's the difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter. A freedom fighter attacks the government or the military of what he "perceives" to be an oppressive regime. A terrorist, by definition, uses the weapons of "terror" on a civilian population. A freedom fighter makes every effort to ensure that as few members of the general public are injured. A terrorist purposely attacks the general public in his campaign of terror. He doesn't have to do it often. Just enough to "terrorise" everyone into wondering where the next attack will come from. The IRA are terrorists. Their target is women, children and civialians.

Better find Ireland so we can't sort out Real IRA.

... Should read CAN not CAN'T... Anyway, the size of it, one Cruise should do for the whole lot.

The terrorist money absolutely should go to the families of victims in the U.S. No question about it. That was my first thought when the world's governments finally got around to freezing assets they should have confiscated years ago. Why should that money go anywhere else? Don't bother answering, the question is rhetorical. As far as the motives of the woman concerned: I find it highly offensive that you would suggest her only motivation is cash. How do you know that? How dare you suggest that all Americans are so rich they don't need any money? How do you know what her circumstances are? How dare you set yourself up as morally superior to someone who just lost their husband in a burning inferno? What gives you the right to make such a claim? Your great courage in posting to this discussion board? Your belief that the government will take care of everything? Since you think the American government should take care of the families of victims (several hundreds of whom were British by the way, and more hundreds were from other nationalitites), then you should also be satisfied with the UN efforts to feed the Afghan people. Case closed. The Afghan people are not suffering significantly because of these bombings: they are suffering because of a four year drought which has crippled their ability to feed themselves. America had nothing to do with that. On the other hand, some of the hardline Christians around here might suggest that God was punishing them in advance for what he knew they would soon deserve, but I'll let the Biblical scholars debate that point. OJ Simpson was sued in civil court for the "wrongful death" of his wife and Ron Goldman. He was CONVICTED on charges of wrongful death, as the standard of proof in such cases is "the overwhelming preponderance of evidence." In effect, the second trial concluded that only a nitwit would think he is innocent. So, do you think this is wrong also? An act of domestic terrorism being punished in this way? Is that also wrong and unbelievable and stupid? Another rhetorical question. There is very little chance anyone will actually get the terrorists money. It will be frozen for decades. This was more of a symbolic gesture than anything else. It was probably this woman's attempt to cope with the grief of losing her husband and not knowing which way to turn next. I suspect she is doing everything possible to reach some sort of emotional closure. And, it is someone's attempt to establish a precedent and make it ever more difficult for terrorists to use the banking systems of the world. That is not their primarly means of financial transactions even now, but we must start someplace.

I dont agree. We obviously have to agree to differ. This bloody litigation society is indicative of the mess the whole planet has got itself into, and it stinks, big time. Yes, the terrorists should be punished, thats pretty self evident to anyone with a brain. But suing the taliban? Ridiculous. Symbolic gesture my arse..... I dont think that anyone is suggesting for one minute that Americans are so rich they dont need the money. What I am suggesting is that the litigatious society that they live in has spiralled out of all reasonable control. By the way, the drought has little to do with the starvation factor. Most of it is to do with the way that their countries infrastructure was utterly knackered by the morally righteous West, who practically paid for Russia to destroy it. I dont set myself up to say whats right and wrong, and what I do object to, is the fact that anyone who might dare wish to discuss any of it is slapped down for being insulting and hard faced. Not true. Morally righteous, l am not. Sick to death of this money grubbing, I most definitely am.

Tom's far too small fecky. You would need a Clancy at the very least I would have thought.

Karl, America in Vietnam...terrorist or freedom fighter? by your definition, terrorist as they purposely killed innocent people...terrorists often have similar aims to freedom fighters and freedom fighters sometimes kill innocent people....it is impossible sometimes to distinguish between the two ....and aren't freedom fighters using weopons of terror....any weopon is terrifying isn't it ? The Taliban or Bib Linden may "perceive" that America is subjugating Islam in the middle-east. does that make them freedom fighters ?

I have seen flat maps that approximate the size relationship of a globe;however, these maps are almost impossible to read and are almost never seen. Why? Well, imagine that you have unpeeled an orange by making top-to-bottom cuts in such a way that the peel is still all in one piece. The you flatten it so that the inside of the peel is "down." You will be left with a lot of empty space between the sections of the "still connected" peel. Granted, everything will be proportional, but it will look weird and be extremely difficult to read. Any large book store should have such a world map available for inspection, even though they are almost never used. As an aside, how would you know if Greenland is to big, or too small? Compared to what? If you're comparing it to flat maps or globes you've seen over the years, then perhaps the previous maps/globes were wrong? It's an interesting issue and is only one of many explanations for why I did not study geography in college.

only a nitwit thought OJ was innocent first time round! he survived purely because a key police officer had made racist statements which the defence used to discredit his testomony. OJ is still free and unpunished. the second trial was connived by ambulance chasing lawyers to obtain money for a life. A far more graceful legal action against bin laden would be to try and secure the sequestered funds for famine relief in the third world. no suggestions were made that Americans are rich. The 'governments' (note the plural from my last post) of those killed have already pledged funds for the families. so, too, have the firms who lost staff including the ancilliary workers who appear to have suffered the brunt of this act. Insurance policies will pay out huge sums on these deaths. legal action will secure even greater benefits. I just don't see why money is seen as the absolution of death or even a cathartism. I saw a program about volcanic eruptions this evening. 20,000 people were killed in Columbia by the ensuing mudslide. They cannot sue anybody. they cannot rely on insurance policies. I willingly chip in to such collections and charities for causes such as this. but not ground zero. sorry. Pan Am was busted by the lawyers after Lockerbie. How many airlines and jobs will suffer this time at the hands of the legal profession? A 12 year old was killed 3 days ago when he crossed the road to school near where I live. Can his family have some of bin ladens funds too? If the driver is proved innocent the all the family will get is some meagre government handout and some flowers by the roadside. read the posts more carefully justin. they were not an attack on america, more an attack on the ridiculous litigious society that is now spreading throughout the world. I said in another thread that it would be good if we could get away from the leftie/rightie rightie/wrongie posts and introduce original thought. Liana and andrew did just that above. Andrew made me think so much that I went and re-read the constitution before posting (how many of you have read it once?) and still makes me think now. perhaps if we substitute China for his New Forest analogy it will make everyone think. morally superior? just who was on tv the next day playing messages from spouses about to die? could you do that anyone? I couldn't. I leave my case open. ~ never close your case when your pyjamas are still inside~

My New Forest analogy was made to make people think. Britain would be in a much better position to winkle Bin Laden out than the Taliban are. How many Afghanistan soldiers would die on a frontal assault on Bin Laden's camp ? Maybe the Taliban were never really in a position to hand him over and so the ultimatum was something that Afghanistan could never comply with. And Stormy is right - if he was hiding in China, would we be bombing them now ? I don't think so. If he was hiding in Vietnam, would the Americans be so keen to take action ? The one question I would like to ask Bush and Blair is, at what point of 'collateral damage' does this stop being a just war ? If we kill 2,000 innocents, is that okay (still less than the innnocents who died in World Trade Centre) - what about 5,000, six thousand, eight thousand ? I'm not anti-American, nor anti-action. Something has to be done about terrorism, but I think this runs the risk of destabilising a number of middle east countries that have been fending off greater fundamentalism. (Pakistan for one - oh, there are only 20% of the country that feel the same as the Taliban, but that is still a hell of a lot of people, if they tried to overthrow the government) Questioning whether we are using the right methods is not the same as questioning our motives.

re the charity donations, the one thing that the relatives of the WTC victims do not need is our money. but money is everything, so lobbing a quid in a bucket demonstrates that we care. it isn't being given to alleviate financial hardship, but as a gesture. and the thing is, the recipients will feel better for getting it, cos they're people like us.

.......easy Tiger...... It's not as simple as that...this isn't a conventional war... the IRA is not the Real IRA, The Real IRA is a dissident organisation. And how to you attack them anyway...where would they have to go to find them....... Secondly, one person's terrorist is another person's Freedom Fighter......the Turks regard the Kurds as Terrorists so therefore they should be bombed. The Russians regard the Chechens as Terroists.. ditto. The Russians have been given carte blance to do what they want there anyway. The Chinese......Tibet....do you want us to bomb the Dalia Lama......and the Chinese don't recognise Taiwan....do you want us to bomb Taiwan ? The Karen in Burma....are they terroists ? the Burmese Junta seem to think so. The Tamil's in Sri Lanka....bomb them too ? The Southern Sudanese.....being oppressed by the North who previously harboured Bin Laden.....who do we attack there ? Bush regards all this as straight forward......it isn't by a long chalk

I've said this before - the definition of Terrorist as against Freedom Fighter seems to depend on whether we think they're in the right or not. Perhaps if the West stopped funding / arming and training anyone who intends to overthrow their government through armed struggle (no matter how laudable we think their cause may be) we wouldn't be in this mess. We know where Iraq got their arms and I've a pretty shrewd idea that the Taliban have got them from the same source. I don't think wiping the Real IRA out is an option, but I would hope that Americans think twice before giving to Noraid in future. Andrew (still in shock from revelation on last night's West Wing that the map of the world is not to correct scale - Africa seems about same size as Greenland but is 14 times bigger, and also that countries are not where they actually are in relation to each other) You'd think in this crazy world, we could agree on the bloody maps !

I have a map of the world on my wall at work. Last Friday I commented to a colleague that Greenland seems to be larger than the whole of Africa, yet nobody knows anything about the place. Does anyone out there know anyone who has been to this enigmatic country. Does it, indeed, exist?

saw a prog on the surrealists and how they mapped the world altering scales etc. ... oh how we laughed ... and now?

The weirdest thing on the West Wing in this sequence, was the cartographers arguing that North and top are not necessarily the same thing, and that putting all the world's poorest countries on the bottom half of the map reinforces stereotypes of them being lesser. They then flipped the map over, with all writing right-way up - that has to be the freakiest thing I have ever seen while completely lucid. Boy, I wish Martin Sheen was president of the USA right now.

Sorry, I am banging on about this today - but it feels important and trivial at the same time. If we can't believe in maps - what is there ? www.petersmap.com/page2.html Mexico is not tiny - Europe is not huge, Africa is bigger than America...