Diary Morality

I find it terribly worrying at times, prohibiting even and I have mentioned this on other threads. This is why when I started doing a diary I wrote fictionally. Lately I have written stuff which relates more to my real life. I always change people's names though. On the one hand I find myself conceited to think it matters as I am just a small blob in time, on the other hand I am a very large blob in my own existence. re the infringement on other people's privacy - maybe I'm an egotist but I get a kick from any kind of write-up - good or bad. Hence I imagine other people do likewise. I mention my son from time to time. The fact is we are very close and if he was ever interested enough to read what I've said, say in 10 years time i doubt if anything will surprise him. My parents on the other hand, well maybe they would have a fit. and they are getting on. But art wins. Or at least it deserves to.

This is only a special case of something we have talked about in these threads before, drawing from personal experience in our writing. In a way it's inevitable, what else has any of us got to draw on, unless we keep it completely derivative and impersonal. But if the personal experience we're drawing on is what happened yesterday or earlier today, it worries me A. that it's too close in time to have been properly digested and weighed up, hence we might be far too emotional and unreasonable about it and say things that we don't really mean, and B. that we might not have time to consider all the implications of what we are saying, including other people's feelings and rights to privacy. One difference between the traditional "literary diary" and what is going on here is exactly that: the material isn't being weighed up and thought about and assimilated before it appears on the page. This makes it more exciting and edgy but I think it also introduces a big risk of people getting hurt or unfairly treated. If I wrote and published everything I was feeling ten minutes after a row with my partner or my daughter or a London traffic warden I might say a lot of rash and frankly actionable things that I would regret half an hour later. I wonder if the answer might be to write your diary entry today but post it in three days time after you've looked at it again and asked yourself if that is really what you want to say.

I've done 2 kinds of diary on abc - the straight out and the thought out. The thought out is a mix of true and embroidered and plain false. The straight out is just like that and has little if any literary merit. It may or not be interesting to someone else, but it feels good to have written something on a bad day - if only a piece of crap. The advantage is you can scrap them anyway and I probably shall go through at some point and do that. If i wrote a lot of the dodgy ones i would wonder if i was clogging up the drains. And I'd be asking myself where does art stop and therapy begin. (On another thread) I might be waffling on a bit here as I should definitely be putting the rubbish out right now! Personally sirat or anyone, I would enjoy to read your rash comments as much as some reconsidered memories, and I expect Fish would also from what i know of her. Is a diary an exercise in self-portraiture or observations on life in general? It's all down to the individual .

i have discussed this with mrs_t, and she didn't want stuff about her going out so i don't include her in my diary stuff, even though obviously she has a major part in what i do and think about, it's impossible not to mention her in some way but I try and avoid it if possible...... If she was happy about it, I'd have a lot more material....

I suppose this is much the same problem that people who write columns about their life for newspapers have, or people who keep weblogs. I tend to read the diaries as only a version of the truth, and as a version of the writer. this is why I can't keep a diary myself, as there is always an implication of an audience, even if the thing is hidden in a chest under the bed. I don't think there would be a problem for some ABCers because they have actually revealed very little about themselves to other ABCers, therefore their diaries would float in space, because there would be no verifiable truths to check them against. I've been enjoying liana's diary, as a peice of writing, but I don't really feel any sense of intrusion because she is distant from me as a person, that is, I am not involved in the fabric of her life. I honestly think that the details given away in a diary are only useful for a malicious perpose if you actually know enough about the writer and their world to be able to put into context what you read, meaning that the person has to literally KNOW you. Still it's a sticky one. Anyone remember the fall out from all of the beats writing about each other?

This was one of the issues that worried me most when I began writing my diary. My way round it has been to only write things about people that I'd be happy for them to read and hopefully they'd be reasonably happy about to. I hope I've managed that so far.

Fish, it was meant to be a jokey comment, nothing implied to mean anything else. If you feel i have overstepped the line, let me know and i will take it out from the entry. It was certainly not my intention to offend you by making the comment. It was probably the wrong choice of words as well.

Entry edited.

I was always amazed at how brutally open stuartwr was in his diary but he only talked about himself so that was his choice I suppose but I could never write an online diary like that. I think you have to be very careful in what you say if you you mention other people. In my diary, for example, I called robert a lazy bastard. This, to me, is acceptable because robert has openly said the same on the forum, it reads as a tongue in cheek remark and I have got to know him quiet well. now, had I referred to say, Karl wiggins - whom I have only met once and hardly know at all - in the same manner then I think he would have every right to feel offended.

*makes note to include stormy in next diary*

awaits mention of a pissed bastard.

thanks all for the thoughtful responses ... and i am pleased too to see the diary entry amended ice ... thankyou ... i like david's policy of only writing things people would be happy to read and this means applying judgement and sensitivity to what you write ... i posted somewhere before that if i was iceman's wife for instance i would kill him if i read his diaries where they go on about phoning "..." all the time and thinking about her as it feels like infidelity to me ... but i suppose i must admit that i am not iceman's wife and for all i know she reads and blesses his work ... i find it far too easy to judge people and this i know is a major flaw ... good on martin_t for respecting mrs_t's wishes ... i have decided i will ask the kids what they think about their foibles being touted as entertainment ... i have shown them stuff in the past that is about them and they haven't minded that at all ... as for others i will apply judgement and try to be wise ... the art wins argument is persuasive and i have no trouble using experiences from real life and real people in my so called "fictional" work ... the problem for me with the diaries is that there is no pretence of fictionalisation ... they are sold as seen .... the real life stuff ... and i agree with freda about the rash stuff being the most compelling ...

well - I've read before that Iceman appreciates the diaries which are honest. So i think his diary is living up to his words. And who knows ..... he might get quite a shock if his wife ever turned up on abc with her own diary! I am pretty diplomatic in real life so the diary is a nice outlet for my dissatisfactions. Like if someone says "do you like my new hairstyle" it's very hard for me to tell them they look rally naff. I wonder if the idea of people reading what I really think of them, might turn me on. Still makes me cringe though! Fish, one thing I have to say is that what you write probably seems more revealing to yourself than it does to others, who are used to reading your work. Like the way an aching tooth seems massive in your own mouth when you know it's just the size of a tiny pebble in actuality.

hrmm... this IS a sticky one... i am writing this diary as a kind of memoir, for myself and my kids when all this is over... i hope that they see it for that, and not just and mummy going off on one and spilling her soul (sorry fish) its made me think about biographies, autobiographies.. the people featured in those often have no say at all, and its a case of tough doo doos..... i try to be nice, and thank my lucky stars that some of the people featured in the diaries cant read, let alone speak much english... and i hope i am nice about my kids..... they ARE nice.... :o)

Fish -the sorry was for the S word by the way :o) and actually, stuart_wr's diaries WERE good, but ..... he didnt always just talk about himself... i remember being utterly astounded when he mentioned in his diary that i was flirting with him... the guy i was seeing at the time didnt take to it too kindly either... as i said to him via email at the time.. i certainly was NOT flirting with him - dont even know him, i had emailed him a few times regarding his diaries (which were brilliant by the way) .....my sense of humour and personality were obviously coming across in the wrong way...

well there you go ... another example of diary writing being a problem to someone else when not done sensitively ... i forgive you the S word just so long as you don't put it in a poem ...

i'd sell it first darling, you can count on it...

I've read this thread with a certain amount of uneasiness, not that I have posted an online diary because I haven't, but mainly because I DO keep a diary, and I don't mince my words or use aliases, though more importantly I have posted my story, (which is a kind of diary) and the names, dates, addresses and places are real. Consequently anybody mentioned in it, or who knows somebody in it, has access to my true feelings and would know exactly what I think about them. I know at least two people, (neither of them visitors here) who do know several of the key characters mentioned in it and have in fact read the story. They have never said a word to me about their conclusions and I avoid any mention of either the story or the site as I don't want any embarrassing confrontations. Of course the easy way out would have been to either not write it in the first place, or change the details in order to give myself room for denials at a later stage. I thought quite deeply about this at the time of writing and decided it had to be as honest and truthful as I could make it, or not bother. As such there is always the possibility of hurting someone. It's a risk that all diarists or autobiographers have to take. I would add that my diary only ever mentions people here in an appointment or meeting sense.

i liked the diary of chant as he talked about abc people quite openly. I found that quite exciting to read and it was like an abc soap. Then it seemed to stop . Chant - did you get cold feet?

I don't have an online diary so much, but 'Manley & I', the extracts from which form one of my sets, is what I term a University 'scrapbook' novel. It contains anecdotes, letters, ficitonal stories, poems and (hopefully, eventually) pictures all surrounding my own adventures and those of the people I've met and become fond of. So not only are they ruthlessly analysed and described, but also sent on fictional journeys as well. This includes one lady living as the last survivor in a bombed out city, going mad, and another who is wanted by Satan. This is probably highly illegal, and very dodgy territory, but I've so far got round it in various ways. Firstly, most events are recounted through a 'Henstoat' filter - as opposed to recording my direct and intimate thoughts, I use the voice of an (even) more arrogant and comical character than myself, who is deliberately unreasonable, paranoid and downright rude. Anything offensive he comes out with can be largely put down to his own, often extreme, opinions. Secondly, my cast list is very precise, comprising largely of people who I like very much and I'm sure won't mind most of the things I say about them. Of those that might well mind, most probably don't care, or, as they put it, "don't want to know" what I write about anyway. Thirdly, I keep test-driving chapters on the subject matter to see if they mind anything I've said, and they're largely confused and mildly flattered. I'm under no illusion that I follow watertight procedures. There are a few chapters surrounding a girl who I mentioned on the other message board who did not enjoy an easy relationship with me, and who may well note like what I say. But most of what I say is just a report of plain facts whilst others are the typically extravagant and unrealistic revelations of Henstoat, and I doubt she'll ever read it anyway. I shall have to see what occurs.

I'm a little uneasy about the diary thing myself, which is probably why I haven't started one yet. Well, actually, I wrote a few things down yesterday, but I didn't post them. I'm concerned someone will send in the men with white jackets to haul me off to the loony bin, though that might be a proper ending to the tale after all. I can say, however, that at about 6.15 PM tonight, I was strolling along a street in central London, lost in thought as usual, and as I passed some people at tables outside a pub I heard the words "Doctor Checkoff." Well, you can't put just any old thing past me. I looked back and saw Tony Cook and John Bird sitting opposite each other enjoying a beer and talking about, evidently, Doctor Checkoff, among other things. So I went back and said "Hi." It seems that Tony had just finished an interview of some kind on London radio, commenting on the daily papers. A pleasant interlude. So, there's my diary entry for today. That wasn't too painful.

ah, yes Liana, I had forgotten that bit of stuart's diary, sorry. I think there is a difference between including people that nobody here knows - as in george's diary/autobiog - and a diary about people we all know, or are aware of here in this online community. I agree with freda's comments about chant's diary but his comments on abc people were based on their writing and/or what they said and/or how they behaved in the forum i.e. he was commenting on stuff already in the public domain. if I was having a chat in a thread with chant and he commented on it in his diary, I feel that is acceptable. I am not so sure I would be as happy if he were to make a comment about something I had said in an email to him. I think that is the difference.

I try to be as honest as I can in my diaries. It is a weird time for me, and you only have to read what I say to realise that.

didn't get cold feet, Freda, just got a bit bored of writing it. Stormy's distinction is a good one, i think.

My diary is extreemly personal, the only thing that really bothers me is my work ethics. Obviously in my work we have to sign a confidentiality contract. I do talk about my clients because it is a big part of my life. I worried about it enough to consult my boss and she said that as long as no names or identifying details were used it is okay. As to the people in my life my sons will probably sue me, my ex-boyfriend would be mortified and my family would disown me. I thought quite a bit about whether to do it or not. It is a personal thing baring your soul to strangers. My next entry was terrible to write but I'm actually enjoying doing it. Writing a diary is theraputic, but writing a diary and sharing it with the world at large adds an odd slant to the therapy. But I vowed to make it honest,and real, and a log of everything major that happens in my life. A lot of it will bore the pants off anyone who attempts to read it, but I get *something* out of doing it. Not sure what it is but something.

I think the important thing is to be honest. Don't dodge issues, be clear, don't pretend to be what you're not. If it's honest, you'll survive! G

After all, they're only your clients, sons, ex-boyfriend, family. What the fuc.k do they matter, sooz - as long as you're honest?

I think it's important to remember that for the first time in history it is now possible for intimate personal reflections to be available to the whole world within hours of their occurrence. Lots of diaries have been written with an eye to publication/posterity, but they've always been through the hands of editors and publishers before they see the light of day, allowing a time for further thought. It might be a good idea to allow at least a 24hr cooling off period before submitting, as suggested above

Mmm - I'm glad I checked this thread out - have been thinking about diary entries but similar quandries reared their heads - and I think altho biographical it still needs to be regarded as fiction for legal reasons!!!!

I think regarding your diary as fiction is a good idea, however true to life it really is. An easy way is to change people's names and details which are not relevant to the events described. If you changed the colour of someone's eyes in passing , they are going to be at least slightly thrown.

Ouch!

sorry, sooz - didn't mean to alarm you. It was my way (in tone and meaning) of disagreeing with the post immediately above mine, which seemed insensitive and pompous.

As, indeed, did my own post.

:-) That's okay edgy. I agreed with the comment. I don't think it's *important* to be honest. But if you are not, then I think the point is lost and the 'excersise' for want of a better word is a waste of time. If you lie it's fiction, if it's fiction you might as well write a story. I also think there's a lot of sense in using false names for those where you can though. And I intend to from now on. With my clients I use first initial, but I don't want to hurt anybody with this. And I know with my ex particularly schemeing twastard parasite that he is I've been pretty nasty. will be more considerate of other peoples right to privacy in future. Can't go with the 24 hour delay though, if I did that I'd delete EVERYTHING the next morning. It's a case of click while it's hot or forget it for me. If I have time to think I'm sensible. ;-)

I write mine every morning before work. Some mornings I am writing just what happens to me, and other times what i think. I also tend to write a poem each morning. I suspect the cuirrent patchiness is due to the fact I am not thinking clearly. There is a fox cub sitting in the garden as I write this, and I think a whole family lives around the back of the summer house in the garden. Just for a moment he looked straight at me.

you know what ....... it's possible to write a completely accurate description of someone and what they said and did, and they might not neccessarily recognise it as themself, providing you didnt state who they were. Because two people will remember completely different versions of the same event. I once wrote a short story which included a conversation I had with a friend in which she appeared thick and naive. I felt awful when it was published. But she read it , in front of me, and didn't see herself there. Or you can slag off say middle-class people, and the person who inspired it will agree with you!

This is the case with every quote, book or otherwise critical of so-called 'fools,' or ones that expose arrogant and ridiculous men and women - everyone knows who the author is talking about, but no one would say that they're the one being criticised.

Mr Edgy - My opinion: a diary should be honest, full and unedited. If you choose to edit it later, before you publish (which would be, in my opinion a wise move and is really what we're talking about here), then that's up to you (the author). I guess that solves your problem. however, most people's diaries would be unutterably boring! A good published 'diary' has intuition, narrative, and (dare I say it) humour etc. added to the mix. Only then it could be fit to read by others, for enjoyment. and if it's a 'real' record, is the 'reality' of any interest to anybody unless you're famous (film star/politician) - Pooters excepted, of course. I revel in the joy that certain people write into their offerings (eg Karl with Kai) - that's great, genuinely heartwarming. But, droning on about everyday life and often imagined slights and witty comebacks you didn't think of at the time, is not anything one should present to others as a work. anger is best used positively, not revealed. Peace! G (ok sounds like american psychobable, but maybe you know what I mean)

Mea culpa! I fell in the trap! control - old fogeyism. It's not for me to dictate people's tastes (However much I yearn...Seig Heil!>>>) post what you feel, people will read, like, ignore or whatever! (still think I'm right, though, grumble, grumble)