What is Art

Tollam is nae a bloke? hoots man!!

Thank God!!!! Some sense on the subject. Thank you, thank you, thank you Sabelle! I've been saying this unpopular thing for years. Shock value, titilation, 'the emperor's new clothes' syndrome, does not equate to being art. As an 'artist' myself...I hate that word...as a 'painter' and sculptor myself I've grown up in the art world and been subjected first hand to its asinine deterioration. Yes, Damien Hirst is talented, but should everything he does be called art just because it's been created by him? I saw a few of his exhibitions back in Bristol years ago before he made a name for himself...his stuff back then was much better, more truthful and it actually had something to say. Today art and what constitutes art is far more to do with the cult of celebrity. The actual work no longer speaks for itself...no...the art becomes secondary, eclipsed by the most important thing which is now the artist who made it. The artist as celebrity. Not a new concept...Michaelangelo & Carravaggio were celebrities of a type back in their days, but they were never more important than what they produced. The focus was still on the art. It's like that guy who destroyed his entire life, passport, furniture, birth certificate etc on a conveyor belt. Now, you may not think that's art, but what I loved about it was his anonymousness...the fact that he was just one of many blue overall wearing technicans...thus..he wasn't important, the work was. Art has become so bogged down in the glitterati of talentless people like Emin who possess no skill or insight and simply pander to our shallow sensibilities and reality-style wish to be shocked. Tripe! If you emerse yourself in the 'art-world' (pouncy term) it's full of corporations and moneymakers out to find the next commodity and market it. It's all about PR, networking, white wine gatherings with excentric types with more cash than brains and in the thick of it all...the artist-celebrity spouting **** about a particular brush stroke or well placed turd. All the above is in rare agreement with people like the Chapman brothers who also believe Emin is shite, but they seem to think that any alternative must be conservative train and tiger paintings. Not so. There has to be a happy medium between the old art (with its emphasis on the skill of the artist and the visual attractiveness of the piece) and new art (low-skill, often not asthetically pleasing and out for shock). There must be a bridge. I'm not saying art has to be beautiful or conservative or strictly visual, but it does have to be strong enough to speak for itself, to speak to the viewer without some tosser existentialising the hell out of it. Also, why does art have to make us think? Of course it shouldn't be merely decorative but the most important thing to me is whether a piece hits me emotionally. An emotional response cannot be anaylsed, it cannot be right or wrong, it's just honest..then the brain can interpret what the hell it likes. Sorry about the rant, but honestly Shacks'...Ozzy and Kelly art? *Joins Sabelle in stripping off and running through nearest market place...ohhh..its chilly today!* [%sig%]

Hi Sabelle. Good to encounter you again. You ask a big question - almost as big as 'What is God'. I'm actually not a very arty person - if you'd ever seen any of my attempts at oil paintings you'd understand that. I think art means many different things to many different folk. Just because you or I or anyone considers something to be blooming awful or downright daft doesn't really mean that it is not art. Sure as heck someone will consider an exhibit in formaldawotsit as the ultimate in art expression - I could probably have appreciated that particular artform better if the artist himself had been the pickled exhibit. I think that Kevin's posting says it all. You may well consider the sight of Henry or BirdKamp in a full frontal assault on the Chelsea goal to be a wonderfully artistic sight - perhaps a Chelski fan may well think differently. I am somewhat of an admirer of the naked female form - in all its artfull manifestations. So if you ever do decide to run naked through Walthamstowe market - please let me know. Could you possibly do it to raise money for the Arts Council? Art for Art's sake me-deeer. Enjoying your poetry by the way. Bye now.

Tollam - the problem with your arguments is that we can replace 'Tracy Emin' with the name of any other artist who ever lived, make a few other adjustments, and it would make just as much sense. It's easy to tear something down if you don't like it. It's easy to say someone has 'no talent' and 'prove' it by going over their supposed merits (MA's, commercial success, critical attention, influence, loved by the public, etc. etc.) pointing out how none of that matters. What your argument comes down to is that Tracy Emin isn't 'art' because you don't get it. It doesn't, as one might say, 'stir your soul'. Justifying that feeling with what you think of as hard facts and rationality is absolute piddle. Irritated A Level English students can do it perfectly well with Shakespeare. Daily Mail columnists can do it with the entire strata of modern fiction. For the record, I don't get Tracey Emin either. None of her art has done anything for me. But it's simply tyrannical and arrogant to suggest that anything that fails to strike me as art cannot be art, which is exactly what you're suggesting, once we tear down the window dressing. As for the original question, I turn Leonard Cohen's beliefs about poetry: "Poetry is not an occupation, but a verdict." I think we can safely extend this to all art. Art is something we decide to approach as art. The object definition is the result of the subject's response. If we regard something as art - if we write books on it, and um and ahh over it - then it's art. Ergo, we can transform something into art, or even sublime it from lower art to higher art (as we have with, say, Chaucer,) by approaching it as critics of art. None of your assaults, or my indifference, can invalidate the approach of critics towards Emin's work. That's the way it works, that's the way it's always worked, and that's the way it will continue to work.

<> Cheers... Hen pulls it off again. Nice one.

Yeah. I've posted here before about the guy with the conveyor belt, I thought that was interesting and provocative and contemporary. If though people stop thinking about Ozzy and Kelly as art won't that little thing in itself stop the headache?

Emin is not talentless - she is an extremely talented artist - it is the fault of the media for making her things like "unmade bed" a focus, and turning her into a celebrity. Other work she has executed is extremely fine... The outrage of people and conversation it causes is the reason that the media continue printing "whatta loada crap" headlines whenever emin or hurst produce unmade bed or halved cows, because it infuriates middle england and produces just this kind of conversation. Thank goodness that art throughout the ages hasnt been restricted and stifled by people who lay down laws as to what does, and what does not constitute art. I can say that there is art which i like, and art that i do not care for - but i would never label it as rubbish.

Very true Kevin. I will now only refer to them as tweddle-dee & tweedle-dumb. [%sig%]

I know what isn't art, so all the crap that's left must be art.

Well, you are clearly a better person than me Liana, because I would label some of it rubbish...that's the wonderful thing about personal opinions, you may not agree with them but they are still valid. As for your take on Emin. Well, I have to disagree. Again, i saw and vaguely knew her through a friend of a friend, long before she became 'famous' and she was always craving the limelight. She in fact was leaning toward circus and public performance art at the time, with her as the star of course. Emin has not been made a celebrity by the media, she's orchestrated it. At every opportunity she'd thrust her face into a camera, strip off or go round those dull gatherings I talked about, being drunk and loud and trying to get attention from every quarter....As a very loud drunk myself, I did find this amusing. But talented she is not. Going by Jeff Prince's criteria (and my own a little)...she has no skill/craftmanship. She cannot draw, paint with any knid of skill...her visual acuity is poor, her insight and intellectual and emotional depth is non-existent. What she is, is a very clever businesswoman who saw an opportunity and grabbed it and ensured she had as much media focused on her as possible. Emin wants middle England and most of us to hate her work...because then it gives her cool kudos and credibility as a cutting-edge-artist and it means she is being talked about....more notoriety, more sales. Attention good or bad is food for her. Hirst I don't put in the same category. He actually is talented and insightful and has a great deal of really interesting ideas, only I personally think he's been blinded by the lights a little and has lost his way in recent years. It's the Saatchi effect I'm afraid! [%sig%]

No Sabelle if you ran through Walthamstow market wearing an Arsenal kit, now that would be an act of unkindness to mankind.

Do you think so Tollam? I have too seen her work, and i do think she has a talent.... i loved Hirsts latest statue. I do wonder though... say if botticelli had seen picasso's work, the conversation we are all having here may have been similar?

I do think she is talented. I do like her montages, though I agree that any year 11 art student could do something similar. Art isn't about just being able to paint or draw. I can't draw for toffee (probably couldn't draw the toffee either) but I make jewellery, I write, I still can't log in, but never mind, which is still art imho. As Tollam says, her drawings are poor and I can't consider her in a bath as art. There are probably thousands of artists better than her, but without her great self publicising talents. And Shacky, I wasn't going to mention footy, but since you brought it up, I think footy players are very talented, I think there is an "art" or knack to scoring from a free kick with the outside of your boot, running with the ball like it's stuck to your boot, taking a corner, a perfectly timed tackle - I could on on forever, but I won't bore everyone - but I don't consider it to be art. Though when it's set to music, clips of Pires, Henry, Vieira and Bergkamp is as close to artistry as footy can get :-)

ha... billy childish.... particularly apt name, no? bet he feels like gary barlow... all seethy and "but *I'M* the talented one"

My fifty year old buddy, behaves like a doting teenager whenever Bruce Springsteen is mentioned, like he the greatest sage come poet of the last fifty years. His live performances are a revelation to him.There is a creepy look of devotion in his eyes whenever the man is mentioned I on the other hand when listening or watching springsteen cringe most of the time, he's become a snake oil/ evangelist, an even duller 10 a penny country rock Leviathan than he was a decade ago, his songs are predictable and naff. His band are a caricature motley bunch of pub entertainers ideal for a spoof film on the subject, his wife gives credability to Linda McCartney as a performer. Yet my friend thinks differently, so is he right or am i?

I do, I do, I do think so Liana, but thanks for asking. No, I think the conversation between Botticelli and Picasso would have gone something like this: Sandro "Pablo, stop shagging my venus...do you have to nail every model I get?" Pablo "It's in my blood" Sandro "No, it's in yer trousers!" Pablo "Stop painting all this airy fairy **** and try painting everything blue" Sandro "And then?" Pablo "Change and go square..ish" Sandro "And then?" Pablo "Take drugs and freak out with Mr.Ernst" Sandro "And then?" Pablo "Go gobular man...and don't forget to shag anything that moves" Sandro "So that's where I've been going wrong!" Pablo "By the way, girls with shorter hair...much easier to...you know....this bird's locks are way too long....Oh...and by the way, forget that Bonarotti chap, your wall paintings in the Sistine made his ceiling look like a piss puddle" Sandro "Thanks P" [%sig%]

Well put Hen... Yes, it is safer to assume everything matters... everything is art.. irregardless of whether one personally connects with it or not. It is a refreshing and liberating view of the world although a hard one to sustain at times, granted. What is 'good' and 'bad' is the consensus of the particular group/groups you choose to identify with.. be it your peers, a particular set of critics, 'the public' etc but it really does not make sense to ascribe any universality to the concept just because YOU feel one way or the other. Best you can do is to argue your corner. I prefer to talk of art in terms of not whether it is 'good' or 'bad', rather whether it can be said to be truly original, and that ties in with the time and place and cultural environment in which it is/was created. Subsequently, looking back, in trying to gauge its impact upon the general cultural conciousness that followed... If Tracey Emin is merely a blip, then I am pretty sure no one will be talking about her in a few years time and any influence she has now will ebb away. If I was to attempt a general definition of 'good art' I would ally it closely with true creativity and innovation.... not only that it shows a clear break with accepted ideas and traditions (in form/content/technique or realisation) but that it posits a whole new set of questions and possibilities upon the cultural conciousness of the time. That then leads to/influences a whole new generation of art which explores those questions sometimes ad nauseum (hence imitations) Good art opens doors, poor art attempts to close doors and thus will always be of limited success... There is something inherent in human nature that positively seeks out the new and innovative and raises it above the everyday norm (Most of human activity after all is engaged in the reproduction and recycling and perfection of old ideas)... It is my firm belief that good art can't help but win out over rigid forms in the end because it encapsulate those universal qualities of adaptibility, process and change...

art that protests about Art... Oh dear. That sure is a bad sign. See what I mean about closing doors? These people are doomed to failure.

Flashy You're both right. I hate Springsteen, but I acknowledge he writes and sings. He does have some talent. Bob Dylan, I don't like, but he has talent. Ozzy Osbourne was famous for biting the heads of poor creatures. If he didn't do that & just performed, no one would've been intrested. & Kelly is jumping on the bandwagon. And how did you know I had my Arsenal kit on?

Hurrah! Sabelle you should be immortalised in bronze you little minx! Great thread by the way. Has Granny given you your lady shaver back? or is she/he still hording? [%sig%]

It's a stimulating rather than lukewarm website . here are some examples of Billy Childish's painting. although I like and can identify with his stuff, (I am a narrative painter) I wonder if his reactionary attitude towards Emin is leading him down more traditional alleys , or cul de sacs, than he would otherwise stray.

Are far as Emin goes, there are hundreds possibly even thousands of artists more 'talented' than her, just look round any art college, there's crap yes, but also talent ozzing out of the walls...very sticky. Flashy if your friend continues to play Springsteen, then he really should be whipped...I've got elastic spare? [%sig%]

An artist is not paid for his labor but for his vision. - Whistler. There is the answer imo.

I'm very tired of the question - wouldn't it be easier to assume that it is ALL art, and then get on with the more useful question of whether it is good art, and if so why? There's quite a bit of modern art that I like; chiefly the strand that doesn't rely solely on shock and 'is it art' I haven't seen the Turner Prize vases, but they sound tedious and contrived. I'm not sure that you can 'depict paedophilia in a playful and ironic manner' - if you drew pictures of child sex abuse and posted them on the net, you'd be expecting a call from Plod, so I'm not sure why putting them on a vase is any different. The guy who made that minature sun in the Tate Modern recently, that was impressive, and I love Claus Oldenberg. I even like some of the Chapman brothers work, though I think buying and defacing Goya etchings is a little bit too permanent a thing to do to a genuine work of art. Emin's bed...? Well, it is one of those things that you think, 'I could have done that', but the issue is that you, or I wouldn't have looked at an unmade bed with that sort of eye, and so we wouldn't have thought of it. It is actually quite an interesting piece of work, in the flesh. We've been complaining for years about abstracts and assemblies not telling a story, and the bed certainly does that. It invites you to think about it.

Is it necessary to judge art? I'm not sure. It's certainly necessary for someone to pick who or what gets exhibited when or where but beyond that I really don't think it's very important. What is important is that people see new work and have the opportunity to make up their own minds. It's intriguing that so many people now flock to modern art exhibitions - that has to be a 'good thing'. Does much more need to be said?

Yes Sabelle - I agree...there are artists that have talent everywhere that are unknown... but they dont necessarily have the same vision or drive as Emin. Good on her I say. She had a pretty shitty life, must be laughing all the way to the bank now i guess... its the same with singers though isnt it? There are thousands of kids with talent, but they are just not in the right place at the right time, dont meet the right people, or have the right look... and it goes for writers too...

Emin has neither...she labors over her bed the way I labor over the toliet...what shall I produce today? As for vision, I've not seen an 'artist' with less than her...but I suppose she should be applauded for her business accumen and the fact that we are at least 'talking' about art. No..that was far too diplomatic....sod off Tracey bloody Emin and go spout your inane drivel somewhere else! I say again...neither talented, insightful, intellectual nor having any emotional depth at all...pointless and empty. [%sig%]

hrm.

Sorry Liana...I tend to get ranty about this! *gauges the art-ability of overflowing dustbin in kitchen* [%sig%]

I just disagree that she is untalented is all Tollam... what about "friendship"? You may not like it, but I certainly couldnt have painted it... just because she chooses not to produce art that is the stuff of traditionally acceptable paintings, doesnt mean she is untalented. I have to say here that I am no prticular fan of emins... I wouldnt have a print in my house for example, I am just defending her peceived lack of artistry... i do think she is a loudmouthed minger, but then that is just my opinion.... and another argument altogether...

I very often find art that is a representation of something that actually exists, lovingly recreated, to be very empty. The question of what you think arts is is always harder than the question of what you think art isn't, but it seems that people seem to confuse the latter question with the former. For me art is anything that operates an idea into a form that makes that idea viewable and discussable to others. There's a lot of ideas behind Tracy Emin's 'Bed'. What strikes me is that people can be very keen to make sure that some ideas make it into what is classed as art and that some ideas are left out.

I agree that we have moved on from traditionallly acceptable paintings into something else...and I am actually a lover of a lot of modern and conceptual art...but...it has to have vision, emotion, it has to stimulate my soul, my brain etc etc and i do (only my opinion) want to see a modicum of talent in the artist and the piece. Where we basically disagree, is that I simply and truly believe that Emin has none. I don't think she chooses not to paint or produce something of substance (either emotionally etc etc) ....I don't think there is a conscious 'choice' at work here. She produces what she does because that's all she can produce. she's not choosing to be subversive, to consciously subvert an artform...she is merely producing drunken (and not the poetic Dylanesque type) outpourings of a very bored and shallow mind. As for her terrible life, I suspect it's not been nearly as colourful as most people on this site and it's been a positive picnic compared to mine. Sorry Liana, we will probably just have to agree to disagree...either that or its a mud wrestling competition (I think the lads would like that one)! [%sig%]

How did she manage to get an MA i wonder... and i ask you again about "friendship"... its a good painting by just about anyones standards... I feel the option of a mud wrestling contest may spark up a petition made of pleas NOT to go ahead... :o)

Tolly and Liana mud wrestling, ooh yes i think that might have more appeal than the ralph vs missi contest i suggested during the early summer.

Mud wrestling - who's got the webcam? I think friendship would be a good attempt for me, but not for someone who has an MA. I agree Liana, how did she get it?

Well one would assume thru talent sabelle... if there is another quicker way, I would be all ears right now instead of up to my ears in assignments... I think Friendship is a damn good painting. So, its all subjective isnt it?

Liana - I can't comment on 'friendship' as I don't think I know it, unless it's that ugly thing I saw once and very briefly hanging behind her 'tent'. As i don't rate her, I don't tend to pay attention to the titles she's gives. As for an MA, thats' a piece of piss. My uncle bob got one for and i quote "churning out the same ****" Mine is on hiatus...ran out of money. MA's are not a yard stick for the talented. the art world is incredibly fickle and as I said, always out for the latest, shiniest thing..mostly PR gurus and networking assistants behind the scenes nowadays..oh and 'party' organisers are cropping up alot for 'important' shindigs. It's the modern art establishment that is so desperate for 'ratings' and to find the next 'celebrity' which is why me and a lot of my mates have opted out of the whole circus in order to get back to what counts and focus on the art. If you live in London, please do visit round places like Goldsmiths, they and other colleges have several open viewings a year where you can really view some raw talent, actaully that applies to any city centre...Bristol's good. Talking of raw talent...Flashy...down boy! You're getting me excited! (and you know what happens then...) [%sig%]

Well if you cant comment on it because you avoid looking at her stuff tollam, the subject is closed really... as you said, we have to agree to disagree... remiunds me of my ex husb who used to love to argue against the bible even though he admitted he had never read the damn thing...

Liana dear, I, unfortunately, get dragged along to see her work and other more worthy types, I simply don't get bogged down in titles especially if it's work (and artists) I don't rate. An awful lot of work (my own included) tends to 'Untitled' so it's a waste of time. Referring back to my original point, I would rather let the work speak for itself and not rely on trite existential blurbs telling us about it and tryng to explain it...I simply refuse to read them. Let the piece speak and the artist forever hold their peace. Bible...good pictures... [%sig%]

By the way...If having an MA means you must be talented then what about poor self-taught types like Anthony Gormley, presumably they have no talent then? Emin was lucky..yes, lucky. She hit and caught a ride on the wave of 'Cool Britannia' and the new wave of cool young 'Brit-Art' that coincided at the same time. This and her eagerness for self-publicity and the love of the 'shock' gave her the boost she needed. talent had nothing to do with it...in my humble opinion. *Enlists uncle do to second MA, should make him twice as talented* [%sig%]

Lilianna'the pirhana'Pesokniskva VS Tolly'the off her trolley' er... Tollam. Two submissons or a knockout. What type of mud warm,cold...etc. Now that is 'raw and exciting talent.'

Dear? Tsk...

...and I didnt say doing an MA *makes* you talented... obviously it doesnt.... there are people around with bags of talent who have no opportunity to do BA MA etc etc... but as far as I am aware, you would be unable to even enlist on one without talent. now, did we agree to disagree or what...?

Flashy - why go for warm mud...lets have it hot! Oh..and can you save me some popcorn, I have a feeling there are some more muddy types waiting in the wings. *strips off to reveal Princess Leia gold bikini (and hard hat containing straws and a constant flow of booze)* [%sig%]

Tony - great post, but it may not be neccessary to judge art or anything to that matter, but isn't it human? Andrew - great post mate! Llegspider - VERY interesting comments that made a lot of sense. I loved your 'definitions' of 'good' and 'bad' art. Of course you cannot ascribe universality to anything really. As for originality, it's a tricky one. We all want to have it, aspire to attain it, whether we really do I just don't know. Picasso always said that no art can be inherently original, that the best artists steal from others. I simply don't know...it's uncomfortable food for thought. Oh dear, Hen & Liana et al...calm down - the problem with your arguements is simply that no matter how you disagree with me or I with you, art is purely SUBJECTIVE, therefore, my not rating an artist or piece is as valid an opinion as anyone's. I'm not stating it as fact, merely as MY truth. In expressing an opinion I am not making any declarations that others are forced to adhere to and suggesting otherwise is "absolute piddle" + I was not trying to justify my feelings, I don't need to, unless we are now living under totalitarian rule. Forget assumed "window dressing" Hen, how is it now "tyrannical and arrogant" to have an opinion?? The assumption that I don't 'get it' and therefore don't like it is incorrect and displays a grand ignorance. I can understand fully the concept an artist is trying to achieve and still not like the result or rate the artist as an artist. Perhaps I am more critical because I have been in the artist community my whole life and have witnessed first hand the tactics of Emin and how she has manoeuvred herself (very cleverly) into the art and media consciousness, but I don't subscribe to 'stuckism' either. Hen, of course I can't 'prove' Emin has no talent and neither am I inclined to try, that was an asinine comment...too many assumptions on your part mate...and no I couldn't replace Emin in my comments with anyone else!!!! It is merely my opinion, others clearly disagree, fine, but I stand by my opinion. Freda - gravy with flour, meatjuice and many burnt lumps (damn that mud wrestling!). I'd love to hear more about your work. I started as a figurative painter then abstracted and branched into sculptural ceramics and installation pieces but I still come back to canvas...first love I suppose. An artists artist? please explain I was a bit confused by that. Philip - I'll be sure to check it out. Please please please don't give in Waldemar! It may not feel right at the moment but your writing is amazing!!!! If you do go into teaching it may not kill it off though. Loads of writers have worked as teachers (Eion Colfer for instance), in fact my poet mate who told me about this site is both a teacher and published writer...he says it's the holidays that allow you to really focus and give it 100%, but forget evenings and most weekends!. Just keep going please! As for 'White Mountain' well, it's going OK. At the moment I'm balancing work, the studio and writing, things are a bit hectic! I've re-written chapters 1,2, and 3 and am currently stuck on 4 and I think chapter 15 needs spliting as well, like I said, re-writes are proving harder than writing the bloody thing in the first place! Well, I hope this won't spawn a host of ill-quoting mud-wrestlers and those who think assumption passes for fact, but if it does just remember that if we all agreed the world and this site would be very dull indeed..... .....bring it on! *oils up gold bikini and gets kipper ready for ritual flagellation* [%sig%]

God artists will do *anything* to court favour wont they..... :-)

Who can we have on the supporting bill?

Oh, thanks Shack's! I'm not sure about the 'gentle young lady' part though, more the loud, brash, and pissed type I'm afraid, prone to bursts of laughter and the blues in equal measure. Well, you are right about the kippers of course...nasty rash came up...I won't tell you where...I'll try salmon next time...either that or its back to a long piece of elastic and some string (ask Flashy). Cheers darling! Diversity rules OK!! Shout it out! *dust ball floats across empty screen* Bugger, always the last the leave... [%sig%]

You'll make up your mind what your point is one of these days Tollam :o)