Ralph: Sodium

Bob Dylan liked Mars Bar's too.......melted them down into a syringe and shared the chocolate needles around.....oooppps! "Hey Mr Tamborine man, play a song for me".......yeah sludge, you're always right.......and no, he wasn't singing about gingle-gangle snowflakes in the morning light either, you Patriarchal pillow of belly fluffed lint! A most accurate t.at was Dylan indeed.......right after he tried to kiss the churches arse to get his carreer back from the brink of self destruction (he had much guilt to hide, our dear BoB). But the master stroke which redeemed him was "Infidels".....'Jokerman' was a metorphical past meet presents biography of his drug haze days, and I suspect he never recovered from the loss of Janis Joplin's life...."What's a nice kid like you doing in a place like this"....Janis was brutalised by all the men her pitiful life! I'd even suggest "Lay Lady Lay" was written with Janis clearly in mind, as it's the only time I've ever heard him not shift his vocal chords though that cocaine abused nose of his? The Traveling Willburry's high-lighted Bob's frail and rarely heard vocal and compositional talents....but then the absolute inspirational genius of Jeff Lynne can make even "End of Line" monkeys like Tom Petty and George Harrison look good in a group retard scenario....(Roy Orbison also totally excluded) You're a nothing more than Frumpish Parrot, Sludge.......you pretend to know something about everything, but you don't Jack from Jill, nor who the others crackers are in that bucket of sh*t called reality!

"a group recording scenario"...ooopppss...sorry!

You Lygon Street Loon!

Hosh Posh nobs who think a friggen Risotto's made with cream instead of butter and olive oil....arrrhhhhhhhh...spittttooooiiiiiiieeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!! Nuuuhhhhhh!

You Twerp. Its about the first world war. Thanks though. Ralph

*winks* get it? No? well I ain't surprised.

And the difference between Patriots and altered states, is what exactly, Ralph and Sludge? Thank you both for stepping in so interestingly to epose my point. And as for Twerps, they are small minded creatures still, aren't they... lol? You will learn one day, both of you....Mind traps...*wink* Thanx for the fish, Fellini!

Here's a hole and here is a shovel Jasper.

He'll need more instructions i think Ralph.

Gee look: Two holes really do make a vacuum.. lol

Yep, they hoover up your dead air...

God, I hate being reasonable. Here I was, all set for an attack on Jasper's tendency to tell the writer what the piece was about, and I find that on reading the poem, I can't justify it. While I could tell the poem was about a war, it could easily have been the Vietnam war, which was full of heroin - and the syringe led me that way too. I think the morphine they used in WWI was in little stick-pin pellets rather than syringe. Damn.

Darling Emily Lets have a little look shall we? 'Excrement drifting streets pushed by forty five degree winds needle rain from an icy syringe' Ok, the trenches in the First World War were little villages. There was no sanitation; the army defecated where they could. The weather was sometimes appalling. The rain was sharp and biting, the wind bitter. 'the nameless encouraged by the godless a choking conflict between desire and reason' There were thousands upon thousands of unnamed solders who died in the first war. They were advised by Generals and Majors who were incompetent and arrogant 'the tattoo of youth journeys to glory Ignite the last time in monochrome bedlam' Over a million died in the trenches by the light of sodium flares fired by both sides. There were songs sang in the trenches as well amongst the carnage. 'sodium songs illuminate blood puddled fields songs to chaperon death knells and loneliness' There is not one drug reference in my opinion, but I see how it could be interpreted. Thanks Ralph

Not for a second trying to tell you what your poem is about Ralph. I was merely pointing out that on this particular occasion that although Jasper has got hold of the wrong end of the stick, it at least was a stick connected to your poem, rather than being one from a different forest entirely.

Of course Emily, just wanted to clear a few things up. No offence to you was intended.

good schtuff

I'm sorry to stick my little fly in your ointment (as BlackAddder might say) but I fell very strongly Jasper's somewhat drug-obessed viewpoint is just as valid as anyone else's including the author's (Death of the author). All art etc has an effect on the person viewing it. They will interpret what they see in their own way and thier response is just as valid as anyone else's. Depending on your outlook, the artist is on a level par with the viewer - in effect he/she is just another viewer. It is what it means to everyone individually that is important Of course other people feel the artist's viewpoint has more weight and is more important and can help them understand a piece, but I tend differ from that.

I agree.

You Flinders Street Freak!

I was wondering when Barthes was going to raise his head. While an author can't completely control a reader's perception of a piece and the associations it triggers, it just seems to me utter nonsense to say that any interpretation of a piece of writing has the same validity as the writer's intention. If someone believes that The Charge of the Light Brigade is about the invasion of Iraq, they are not 'deconstructing' the piece and 'challenging the authority of the writer' they are just wrong. I think that there are passages in Ralph's poem which flick parts of the mind that think about Vietnam and possibly drugs (the futility, stupidity and death connected with both are also true of WWI) but it is only Ralph's explanation that covers all of the imagery in the poem. The other interpretations are misses, but close misses as opposed to claiming that the poem is about George Formby's early life or about futility of washing-up by hand if you own a dishwasher. All that death of the author stuff just irritates me - and I've never read a page of Roland Barthes that had any of the grace or style or wit of even a hack writer like Pratchett...

I dont. I know all about death of the author, but it always leaves me all rolling eyeballs and clutching hair. I understand it, I just think it foolish to disregard author intent. Any insight to a piece of text is an aid to understanding... doesnt stop the reader pulling what he or he desires out of it, or interpreting it differently though.

hahaha fancy a pint anders? I knew there was a reason we get on so well.

Don't pull your hair out Liana, by all means disagree - there's no right or wrong but I honestly feel that the author's viewpoint is interesting, and of course, valid to a point but that's just about the end of it. For me 'art' is the moment when we engage with it - not later on when it's 'explained'. Lord Tennyson's 'The Charge of the Light Brigade' is not a good example from Emily, as is was about a very specific historical event in a time when such events were popularised by use of this very literal form. Obviously the more literal any statement or 'poem' the less room there is for interpretation.

Dont worry it's just metaphorical Kj... i wouldnt really do it. I still disagree though I understand your vewpoint.

I suppose I find it dificult to tolerate people 'laughing' at somebody for their own interpretation - as earlier on in the thread - that's just not on really. All that high-handed cult-of-the-author stuff is ego nonsense. Every viewpoint is valid, no matter how insane, mad, boring or plain fucked up...heh

You're in good company Larph, Bob Dylan had people tell him what his own songs were about all the time. He would say, 'No,no,no, it's not about that at all'. Sometimes they would reply, 'You're a fucking liar'. AJ Weberman was the worst offender. Hey, I think Weberman was an Aussie, I wonder what became of him.

Dylan? He was like, saying stuff, yeah...? A good songwriter writes songs that mean a lot to a lot of people. If Dylan's songs were powerful enough for their 'message' to speak to people' in different ways, great. For him to turn around and make a big thing about what his songs were 'really about' - well, he's just playing the genius game - which, I've always thought he failed at miserably. Didn't I mention all that cult-of-author ego nonsense?

Stop it. You'll drive Missi into a frenzy. Dylan is his idol.

You probably did but I didn't pay much attention. >> ...A good songwriter writes songs that mean a lot to a lot of people... << What a load of old tosh THAT is. Most songwriters, good or otherwise, write for themselves, not others. On the topic of Bob Dylan, he is I believe, the only modern lyricist who is the subject of a university course. Professor Chris Briggs (Professor of English Literature at (I believe) Manchester University) cites him as the most important poet of the 20ct. But then if you say he's crap Briggs is most probably wrong.

What do you know about songwriters Mississippi? There's not a bloody format for them? All songwriters write songs, great songwriters (as poets do) write songs that 'speak' to a lot of people. And just what is wrong with writing for everybody else anyway? You make them sound oh, so glamorous - they're not - they're just like you and me. You sound like the type who wants to glorify poets and authors as being 'Gods amongst men' great do that - just don't expect others to agree with your cap-doffing hero-worship. You make it sound like someone like Dylan is a God, he's not - he's a little man who had a big break with some airy-fairy nonsense that spoke to yet another generation of teenagers wacked out on too much dope - the times are a changin, yeah...deep. And worst of all Dylan believed the all the hype, he really did - and then what happened, oh yeah, nothing. It's what artists create that speaks to us in a special ways, that's important. Da Vinci is suposed to be this great master - have you seen the Mona Lisa? It doesn't speak to me at all. It's a dull painting of a woman with a smile that has no relevance to my life. No amount of understanding his genuis, talent or life will change that. [%sig%]

PS. I am not a fish...

Blimey, get her... Read 'The Chronicles', then you will see what a devastating writer Dylan is. Rafe

I'm okay, it's just the wine and the lack of sex...I thought it was obvious.

That made me laugh. Chin up, the summers coming.

As it happens I know quite a bit about songwriters. I have known, and still do know many. I've discussed songwriting techniques with such illuminaries as Ewan MacColl, writer of 'First Time Ever I Saw Your Face' and also Richard Thompson (many years ago now). Being pissed and having a full sac does nothing for your credibility. Make a mug of Horlicks and go to bed.

Dear Janis bled her little lamb while Sludge flogs Woodstock's halo, The slow train came and left again Dylan's God shat on his name-oh. That Major Tom was quiet the star Till his dozed poor Ziggy's Stadust, Kissed big Brown lips around the world cleaned his house for label's mind-crust. Marc cried T-rex, come free hot love, then drove spikes, metal revolution, Plastic Beatles won, dodged Jackson's cost, Kurt's life was one Love's faked fortune.

hmmmm

Quote:"I'm okay, it's just the wine and the lack of sex...I thought it was obvious." For a brief and dazzling moment there, KJH, I actually thought Camelot was well worth reconstructing from these ABC ashes! Death of the Author: David Lynch, Sophie Calle, Merleau Ponty...even Walter Benjamin in his drug experiments! Da Vinchi was a charlatan who stole both his fame and name from one of "Lorenzo The Magnificents" adopted urchins by the name of Michelangelo Buonarroti (whom all the anatomical dialogues of art always belonged to...without the aid of mirrors too, btw)

What's...hmmmmm..mean?

hmmm means many thing Jasper. It can be interpeted many ways. Full circle I think.

Mississippi, 'Being pissed and having a full sac does nothing for your credibility' - seemed to work for Dylan though, heh. I suppose, that even under the awful umbrella of my own early morning sobriety, I have a healthy disdain of 'hero-worship' and cult of the author. I've met a lot of my 'heroes' they're just 'guys'. There's nothing wonderful about them, most are just lucky, others fantastically driven. I admire their success and enjoy their work, but I don't always feel the need to understand their motivation - but others do, and really enjoy all of that. So we will have to disagree on that point.

Gee, I dunno about that Ralph: You Poms are far too precious and capricious about intellectual property rights.......bloody church did that to every culture...gender and sect, btw! Formula's are always meant to separate and conquer.......WW1 was such a clear romantic example.......of *&^%$ human waste! And I'm glad you were civil enough to admit that your poem is far more interesting than you either thought or intended.... at first! And I'll also be the first to admit, here and now, that I thought KJH was a bit of a hack in over-startched undies, at first. But her comments in this thread......My god, I nearly fell head over heels in love her mind...........until she backed down, of course, and made such a piss-weak excuse like "I'm just woman so please forgive me everyone for telling the truth!" Now I suppose she'll just go back to being one of the flock who thinks the only way to achieve literary recognition is to not speak out and just follow some dead mans over-cooked crock of swill recipe.......and that's the real shame of all ART.......men think they own it! Credibility isn't worth defending when everything's subjective?

This is for you...not against you, KJH...don't make the same mistake twice please!

I don't believe I've ever used the phrase 'hero-worship', or the word 'hero' in a personal context, or even at all. I don't have heroes, I admire some people though, for various reasons. To me, Bob Dylan is simply one of the most insightful and articulate writers of his generation. I very much doubt whether he was or needed to be pissed to write. Most talented people can do their thing without the aid of artificial stimulants.

'Most talented people can do their thing without the aid of artificial stimulants' Very true, but will everyone on here agree ;)

I do like the odd Mars Bar whilst I'm creating......

'I do like the odd Mars Bar whilst I'm creating......' Yes, but what do you do with it?