You Decide?

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Sat, 2006-06-10 10:05

You Decide?

Since Quantum Physics, like a lot of scientific theory, seems to rely a lot on the observer (not the newspaper) it raises an old problem.
Does the observer have to be human? Do dogs decisions split the universe into alternate realities? Do mice really lay plans :O)
If Schrodinger's cat had a feline friend watching through a transparent wall on one side of its cage - through which only the two cats could see - would that be enough to force the endangered cat to be dead or alive :O)
More seriously, what is it about humans that makes them so special that they can change the Universe with a mere glance?
Does a tree in the forest fall if there is no-one to see it? Of course it does the Universe doesn't wait for us.
But do animals have souls or Buddha Nature? Are we really something so special or is it merely hubris?

Sat, 2006-06-10 11:13

poetjude

gosh! we need John (j.r.c) on this one! Too hot to dabble in quantum physics for this Engerlaand fan! But in respect to "do animals have souls?". Christianity really winds me up with its smug superiority in relation to other creatures and other people for that matter. I tend to align with the Vaisnavite view that all creatures have a spark of the divine within. However a human incarnation is necessary to have a conscious contact with the Divine

Sat, 2006-06-10 11:46

richardw

Or may living thing be nothing else but modulations varying in attributes as best fit their purpose? A human being could be nowt but an expression of the same Substance from which everything derives, differing in mental capacity only through necessity, in order to structure the world. Jude, the conscious contact you speak of, might this just be the realisation that we are the top of the game?

www.unreasonablepress.com

Sat, 2006-06-10 12:08

poetjude

On one level, yes. We are in the unique position of having the mental faculties to see our place in the scheme. And as Richard Dawkins said (paraphrased) life is just the laws of physics, albeit deployed in a special way. I have Faith that there is more to it than that. But I won't dredge up the arguments from my 'philosophy of religion' archives because they don't hold. I can rationally defend my position but not prove it! jude "Cacoethes scribendi" http://www.judesworld.net

Sat, 2006-06-10 12:23

Jack Cade

How is the cat, in this situation, any different to another human observer? Other humans don't change the Universe unless their ideas have an impact on you - similarly, the cat doesn't change anything unless he can bear witness. Does a tree in a forest fall? Yes... but isn't the original question about the sound it makes? Since a sound is what our brain makes of waves of molecules, it only exists as an idea - so if no one is there to form the idea, there is no sound. Something like that. By the same logic, if there *is* someone to hear the sound, but he's killed by the falling tree, the sound ceases to exist or have existed.

Sat, 2006-06-10 12:26

josiedog

If you're gonna talk buddha nature then it it might be cool to refer to the buddhist cosmology/philosophy: everything has buddha nature. Even my cup of tea. Whether one knows it or not, of course, is another matter...

Sat, 2006-06-10 14:02

maddan

Quantum physics, or at least Heisenburgs's uncertainty principle, is more concerned with photons bouncing off of things (in which case, you know where they are, but not where they are going), or things bouncing into other things (in which case you know where they are going, but not where they are). Who's eye the photon ends up in, if any, is not important. Or something like that, it was a long time ago I did it. Schodringer's cat (every non-scientist's favorite bit of science) is a thought experiment designed to disprove the Copenhagen interpretation by infering logical extenstions to a ludicrous extend (or, rather, an extend which exposes the ludicrousness of the original interpretation). As far as Qunatum physics is concerned the observer (the point at which the probability waveform collapses) might as well be a machine, or any non-quantum event. The fact that the cat observes it's own demise was, I think, posited at the time. Like I say, I'm very rusty, so don't go taking that as gospel.

Sat, 2006-06-10 14:31

mississippi

It's been said that wearing a toilet seat around your neck prevents your head disappearing up your arse completely. (I just felt the need to piss on slimeys parade. For old times sake you understand)

Sat, 2006-06-10 14:31

mississippi

It's been said that wearing a toilet seat around your neck prevents your head disappearing up your arse completely. (I just felt the need to piss on slimeys parade. For old times sake you understand)

Sat, 2006-06-10 23:20

#10

yan

Have you not read up on entanglement and decoherence? QM is a fledgling science, Copenhagen is the bottom of the rabbit hole, everything else is fruit for the philosopher...and the mystic...and the earth was flat once. Noone has ever actually seen a particle!! Early days...lots of opportunistic mainstream authors milking the mysteries of another scientific work in progress.

There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed -
Dennett

Sun, 2006-06-11 09:15

#11

maddan

Decoherence is a fancy name for waveforms collapsing, both it and entanglement would have been covered in a second year Stat Mech module. If you're going to ask me to go and unserstand Schodringer's wave equation again (Schodringer was actually a proper scientist, he didn't just ask awkward questions about cats) you can fuck right off, I still have nightmares about those two pitchforks

Sun, 2006-06-11 10:41

#12

mykle

I was surprised to find that the Dalai Lama has an interest in Quantum theory and discovered this article from 1998. http://physicsweb.org/articles/news/2/8/13/1 I wish they would get that teleporter sorted though - anyone who has done a lot of long-haul flying will know what a pain it can be. Beam me up Scotty... no, hangabout... sunny day, cool sea breeze, green and pleasant land, nice beach. I think I'll boldy go and explore Atlantis :O)

Mon, 2006-06-12 06:39

#13

mississippi

*donates the fare to ensure there's no change of mind*

Mon, 2006-06-12 07:53

#14

mykle

No charge to get me to Atlantis as I have a season ticket and it's a short walk. http://www.yorkshirecoast.co.uk/scarleisure/atlantis/ But all donations toward my next trip to Thailand will be gratefully received. Pleased make your checks payable to : Send Slimey Packing fund. 4 Uknowitel Beahbetter Place Withouthym DO1T NOW. (thanks for the spell check Georgieboy)

Mon, 2006-06-12 09:35

#15

mykle

Hey, Jude, looks like you might have to whisper the good news soon :O) http://www.orange.co.uk/news/topstories/20074.htm?linkfrom=Today&link=li... As for Getting ASBOed for answering the door in underwear, playing the song "Do They Know It's Christmas" too loudly and for feeding pigeons... bloody hell, it's the people who don't do these things that frighten me!

Mon, 2006-06-12 15:57

#16

mississippi

I think you may mean 'gratefully', tsk tsk. Isn't Thailand where all the paedos go?

Mon, 2006-06-12 16:34

#17

mykle

I think it was once but the government have clamped down a lot recently and I hear the perverts are heading for Vietnam or Nashville.

Tue, 2006-06-13 02:44

#18

mississippi

Well I'm in the clear, as unlike you, I have no reputation for pestering people. I have a long memory slimey.

Tue, 2006-06-13 12:06

#19

mykle

I got this joke today which is OK but so unrealistic: A Londoner parks his brand new Porsche in front of the office to show it off to his colleagues. As he's getting out of the car, a lorry comes speeding along too close to the kerb and takes the door off but doesn't stop... More than a little distraught, the Londoner grabs his mobile and calls the police. Five minutes later, the police arrive. Before the policeman has a chance to ask any questions, the man starts screaming hysterically: "My Porsche, my beautiful silver Porsche is ruined. No matter how long at the panel beaters it'll simply never be the same again!" After the man finally finishes his rant, the policeman shakes his head in disgust: "I can't believe how materialistic you bloody Londoners are. You lot are so focused on your possessions that you don't notice anything else in your life." "How can you say such a thing at a time like this?" snaps the Porsche owner. The policeman replies, "Didn't you realize that your right arm was torn off when the truck hit you." The Londoner looks down in absolute horror......... "F?#KING HELL!!!!!!" he screams........ "Where's my F?#KING Rolex????..." Surely he would have noticed his missing watch when using his mobile to phone the police :O)

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