performance

Nah, I think you are right Roper.. thats why we always say to keep the pieces as short as possible, and in the case of a book to upload it little by little. Thresholds are low, eyesight does get strained... I do spend time talking to people... i am extremely talkative in the main... and loads of people here are mates in real life. Have read barthes too. Does that mean I am ok to be let loose with a pen?

audrey..i would rather die a dozen miserable deaths through wielding an untutored pen...than experience one more literary academic who seems to have completely lost touch with the sheer variableness of everything that touches our souls... ..i often ask. people who study literature. do they stop reading at a certain point?. do they stop empathising with, reflecting on, or recognising that fallibility, chance and spirituality lie at the heart of most stories? most lives? ..perhaps their dour and limited register is all they have left. .

*gasp*

Oh, by the way, hello Audrey and welcome to the site. Few people getting a little defensive here... For what it is worth, my sympathies lie a little with Faithless - heart is the key element of any writing and I'm not sure that can be taught, or analysed or deconstructed. A writer either puts something real and of themselves into their work or they do not. Welcome.

Hmm. There's a patronizing smugness to the original post here that leaves me cold. The poor spelling and grammar don't help. Reminds me of those college classes where I really tried to pay attention, but could focus only on the stinky feet encased in Birckenstocks. Blech. But correct me if I'm wrong...

Quite.

Cool. A debate about Barthes. "So the end result must be that we write for ourselves and show it to no one." Only if it's of crucial importance to you that you have total control over what your readers get from a story, which is a silly ambition. I do think it's important that writers have at least some knowledge of the theories of Barthes and Foucault, or an off-shoot of them, if only so that they can chill out a little. "So long as you know that your work will never be read as you wrote it, go ahead my lovelies." Well, exactly, in a manner of speaking. Too many authors stress over impressing 'The Reader', some mythical figure who is the sole arbiter of their work, and represents their every hope of success. If you stop thinking of authors and readers, and start thinking of language - individuals communicating with individuals - it's much less of a hassle. And besides, all Audrey is pointing out is that if you publish your thoughts on a writing site, you are leaving yourself wide open to misunderstanding. "..i often ask. people who study literature. do they stop reading at a certain point?. do they stop empathising with, reflecting on, or recognising that fallibility, chance and spirituality lie at the heart of most stories? most lives?" Christ on a bike, Faithless. Why are you so threatened by different viewpoints? Academics are, at their best, people who want to see deeper into the heart of a work than anyone else. If their language is frequently hard to get to grips with (and it most certainly is,) it's because there are certain realms of understanding which every day sentences and phrases cannot transmit properly. Think of the reduced dictionaries in '1984' and you've got a nice model for the real reason you don't 'get' their interpretations. OK, so some of it may be wrong, but that's the point. You aren't obliged to agree with it - the study of literature is about discussion and argument, and really, honestly, trying to read the text for what it is. It's about reflection and understanding, and keeping literature alive, not stamping your foot down on other viewpoints, as you seem intent on doing. At least now I know the real reason for some of those past jibes...

Well put, Hen, but I think it's the sneaky rebuff in Audrey's post that gets to people. It got to me (and on another post she showed up on...it's like having Nurse Ratchett peering over your shoulder).

...because, really, it is an interesting subject.

Yeah, I guess it's a bit...erm...heavy-handed. But I think it was well-intended. There's an element of role-play going on: "As a writer and student of literary theory and cultural construction, I find this entire site extremely entertaining." Immediately establishes herself as an outsider, or observer, dwelling on us for reasons of scientific interest. I'm no psychologist, but isn't that a classic way of first entering into a community?

Maybe, unless she pictures herself as Diane Fossey and we're the chimps.

What colour is Nurse Ratchett's uniform? No special reason to ask. Just interested.

I find her post rather contradictory. She finds this site entertaining then advises all writers who draw from within to give up. Well, that's 90% of us then. Not much of a site left to entertain Audrey. *Ladies and gennelmen, abcBarthes present to you - a site for journalists who write interesting things and retain ownership of the words* *Hadn't realised the French goalie was so erudite*

Doesn't she wear white? Or just the standard, generic uniform?

Posts which describe others like they are talking about rats in a f***ing laboratory almost inevitably come from the academic ones amongst us. Chilly. Brrrrrrrrrr

Upon re-reading this thread I've noticed jab's remark about the spelling or, to give Audrey the benefit of doubt, typo's. I would have thought that someone making their first post to a forum, and one that tries to be so erudite at that, would ensure their post was word perfect. Perhaps this is an indication of the education system nowadays? Marks not deducted for poor presentation, spelling errors, typo's and so on? Although, you'd think a 'writer and student of literary theory' might make the effort since it sounds as if they regularly submit work for publication. We all make typo's and mis-spell at times here, especially when hastily fisting the keyboard (can I say that?) with our next point, but ... well ... I'm lost for words. *relinquishes control of this text by hitting 'post' button* (having checked for typo's)

He He!! I can't believe that anyone actually took my comment as an insult! its only the truth! there is alot of stuff i wouldn't let anyone else read because i don't want them to comment on it. Yeah, that's cowardly, but i don't feel i have to defend it (and you lot shouldn't be so defensive either!). And no, i'm not some cold academic, if i was then surely i would have won my age old war with spelling, but i couldn't be bothered to check what i'd written. if thats a sin, well burn me. i don't have a passionate relationship with grammer, clearly. sorry if the language upset you, but as someone noticed, it is thrown at me everyday and i am expected to express my ideas within its spheres. 'scientific interest'. excuse me, but you must be the first person to ever connect me with science! he he!! i do enjoy the fact that faithless seperates the world into literary academics and writers. sorry but have some FAITH. there is no battle between us, even if you want to construct one (oooo i do hope that i'm allowed to use the term 'constructed' or is that too much!!!). i'm not a critic, i don't read because i want to pull things apart, i read because i love it. well, this is the trouble i get in for saying that writing is complicated. Perhaps if you took the stance that academics like to look at the ideas of others perhaps you would take their existance as a compliment. I'm no Janet Street-Porter!!! I eat crisps form pubs. And i don't deifne myself as an academic, so i find being called one a little strange.

"If you haven't read Bathes' 'The Death of the Author' then you need to and quite franky shouldn't be let lose with a pen lest you injure yourselves. " I started reading it, Audrey, but nodded off about ten pages in. My friends and family have advised me to stick to my Jeffrey Archers for now, and work my way up to the big ones. Many thanks for the advice re. the dangers of pens. My loved ones have now removed all the felt tips from my pencil case, including the really chunky ones. Would I be alright keeping my protractor though? Do feel free to advise further on stationary or speeling matters.

The pen is mightier than the sword he said But when he cut me I just bled. To tell the truth when I was smitten He had not read what I had written.

White's the one I'd have chosen.

hee hee. i love friday mornings. thank you literary academics for doing all our thinking for us. i've just fed the ducks. weather is looking kind of lost. i'm smoking a fag and drinking tea. life is a caprice. kiss kiss martin.

my boyfriend has told me off for writing 'such rude messages'. i never meant them to be rude. i shall not be making any more comments because i think that maybe he is right.

its not so much rude as naive. But why is the thread entitled 'performance' ?

I wonder if this is why my aunt refuses to write letters. She's afraid someone will get ahold of them and use them against her...

I always wondered whether Barthes wrote notes for his milkman, and if when he did, he had any expectation that the milkman would deliver two bottles as requested, or whether he would simply shrug and say "that is for the milkman to decide as he will"...

Oo er. so the end result must be that we write for ourselves and show it to no one. That's why I gave up academia.

"Perhaps you find talking to people difficult and this site is a form of mental realise" Right this far. "where you can maintain annonimity?" No. Lots of people on here know who I am. One or two people probably have a clearer idea than I do. "If you haven't read Bathes' 'The Death of the Author' then you need to and quite franky shouldn't be let lose with a pen lest you injure yourselves." I haven't. But I'm think I'm more likely to injure myself if I'm not let loose with a pen than if I am.

One thing nagging at me is that much of the material on this site though of excellent quality is really more suited to the printed page than for online reading. I don't know about you but my boredom threshold for onscreen text is a lot lot lower than for the old-fashioned ink and paper variety. Sadly, for me a lot of the writing on abc-tales doesn't really work electronically - at least not in the way I think the author intended - though it would be fine if it appeared in a book. When was the last time you curled up with a good laptop? I think people should think about that before they upload their handiwork. They probably need to do things like have shorter sentences and paragraphs and overall write fewer words per story/poem. I'm going to be shouted down for saying this, but that's my honest opinion.