American vignettes by andrew oldham

Nice... very hilarious at certain points. Still laughing about, "There’s Fat and then there’s American Fat," soo true. Finding zero positives though, or… um… any inspiration points whatsoever… it's the lefty side of the same cornered mentality my way too wealthy Republican friend has, who sends back a postcard from his wasted visit to Britain which only said, "England, look how great we used to be..." Although it’s shitty to cop on this, how’s about; Kerouac – One incoherent, rambling book then dies a drunk watching TV with his mama, and Ginsberg – In the end lobbies Congress for a medal from his deathbed, then America – If you can’t get laid here, you ain’t payin attention, pardner, America – Paradise destination for all of Mexico, and finally, America – 21.3 billion for foreign aid in 2007 (3.4 billion for HIV/AIDS). I could go on all day, but I’m out of filters so must run out to buy a cup of coffee for 2 dollars (heh heh) with warmest wishes, I really do love ABC Tales!

Oh, I wouldn't call myself left wing but many people I talked to on my travels were - and this has been reflected in the poem. Can't agree on Kerouac though, not only is the influence of Burroughs felt in his work but 'On the Road' is an iconic novel of the period. Sure, he was a drunk but Shakespeare was known to take opium, Bacon was a raging alcoholic and womaniser, and spy, Larkin was alledgedly a sexual pervert, Hughes a womaniser and abusive to women but come on - it's the old adage, never meet your heroes - it matters little what writers do in their private lives, it's what they produce that is imnportant - Kerouac's work brought the Avant-Garde in to the mainstream, without it there rise of the likes of Patten, McGough and Henri would never of come about. Much of the Beats writing can still be seen in poets work today - thank God - remember that Mozart was a great musician but he was a vulgar, despicable excuse for a human being but do you care when you hear his work? I don't - this is an interesting debate and is very indicative of the celebrity culture we live in, that we want know everything about our celebrities, we have no right to invade on the private lives of any public figure living - afterwards, is a different matter but we should never allow it to taint our view or love of their work.

I agree with some of this on Kerouac and especially the influence of Burroughs. I'm not alone in thinking On the Road is overrated and from the perspective of books produced by the beats, I'll put my money on 'Junky' being the outstanding example in the long run. Kerouac was also handsome and photographed well, so his special kind of status is axiomatic. More to the point on Kerouac than the drinking was that he did pretty much lay down (or fall down) after this initial success and so his promise was never fulfilled unlike the others you cite above. The sarcasm on Kerouac was not the real point of the response in any case. Whether you are left wing or not can be a mystery if you say so. Let's just say the hate America first crowd feels free to skewer and denigrate anybody's god and country as in - 20. The ghost of Ginsberg (for you can sleep in a wigwam) - and all are expected to silently takes the lashes without response or defense because motives of the left (or the hate America first crowd) are always pure, only they recognize injustice and speak for the poor and disenfranchised. If a corresponding response is made targeting perhaps a literary sacred cow such as Mr. Kerouac or other stand-in Jesus figure, then things go academic. I have to admit at least you did this with some really solid and interesting writing which is not the usual case.

Well thank you, my field is in Bradbury, which does bump into Bukowski and finally the Beats. I've met a few Keroauc academics, and they too agree 'Junky' is a superior book to 'On the Road' but acknowledge that the latter opened up the scene to the mainstream and more importantly, the press and academia. Much of 'The ghost of Ginsberg' owes much to Howl, taking a vast section and rhythm from it and I'm glad the poem has opened up discussions at how we see other cultures, it is always impossible to approach a culture or poetry in an objective manner - but we try to dissect in an objective manner, which is inherently impossible as we are subjective beasts (paraphrasing Marx now - apologies) but thanks, truly thank you for raising this debate - I hope more people take part and think about how poetry interacts with the reader.

I don't even know where 20 came from....I know it came from Howl but the vitriolic nature does scare me.

Vitriolic is perfectly legitimate. And in difference with the canon of coolly removed intellectuals, so is sentimentality. These are gateway emotions that when done well sand the literary patina and style off things, generate heat (obviously) and nail up some of those raw, uncomfortable and compromised feelings we actually toss around all day long. Will never ever get you a bestseller unless properly varnished though, and thank God (apologies) fer that... And I’m glad you pushed the Bukowski button. He’s the more interesting and always immediate preference for me than the dusty beats. Carelessly prolific, despised by academic and literary communities alike and could care less, without an ounce of pretense or superficiality, his pieces written in 1962 sound like they could have been written last night or ten years from now. Near zero sex or political appeal in the aggregate, he's the real deal to my taste, the true outsider, too often poorly emulated and copied. I’ve been trying to avoid doing it for years...