ABCtales was a good place to start but you really must leave now

Sharp. Very sharp. I like that...

What on earth is going on here then?

And of course we can learn nothing from history..........

It's a ruse. Someone out to pick a fight, looks like to me.

its called "The Disenchanted Manoeuvre ..."

of course, the site could be improved. the policy on swearing for example has to change. but.. in point of fact, i find that the standard of writing on abc is getting better and better. i also find that reading very good writers here has been intensely helpful for me in improving my own writing skills. moreover, when reading work by a good writer that doesn't quite hit the mark, by seeing where i perceive they've gone wrong, i feel i learn something about my own mistakes. and with Andrew 'very pro-active' Pack now chipping in with the odd critique e-mail i feel that i'm getting more than my money's worth. hang on a minute, i'm not paying any money. what's going on?

I hate wiggins... I SO hate wiggins...

there is a destinct lack of critique though. You can get cherries and ratings, but it's not so easy to get advice on specifics unless you start your own forum topic, and that often feels too much like blowing your own trumpet (I've only done it twice, once to ask why a poem seemed to be hated, another to ask why one was cherried - neither resulted in supplying any useful information from my point of view). It takes the place of setting up your own web page, things like that, but it's not as good as a decent email list (not many of those arround though to be fair).

Stuartwr...or Gollum? Did the nasty Wiggins steal your Precious?

E-mail list is a good idea that's been mentioned a couple of times. I'll look into the feasibility of it :-) Cheers Em

email is definitely good for forums, the discussions on here remind me very much of the Cinema email list that I'm on. Of course with email lists you do have to learn to cope with the junk that you'd normally skip over if you were reading on the web, but as an additional option it would be very good. I'm not sure it would add any serious functionality to the sites main object, which is effectively self publishing. One feature that would be nice is an email server that you can send requests to for, say, random stories or poems to be sent back to you. It would be a good way to get a wider view on the ABC writers and could encourage more web contact (my ABC usage is very sporadic).

have you posted any threads critiquing other people's work though Mark? that might be a way to get some feedback (quid pro quo) on your own stuff. for myself, i do like writing comments about other people's work, and reading comments on my own work, of course (providing they're written by someone with half a brain). try posting on www.thoughtcafe.co.uk/, which offers this facility.

I think a comments box (like on thoughtcafe, as mentioned above, or www.getoutthere.bt.com) at the bottom of the story is a good idea. You finish the story and there's a box right there for comments. However, many comments I've received there (while welcome) don't necessarily get to the nuts and bolts of what works and doesn't work. Over on getoutthere we've introduced a weekly title game -- we come up with a title each week and write a story to it, and then comment on each other's stories. Also, we've started the "Crit Game", where you nominate a piece you'd like to receive some indepth feedback on. You go on the list, and then each week leading up to your piece appearing, you crit the other pieces on the list. ABCtales has a lot more users so if we were going to start anything here, it would be harder to manage. We'd probably have to break off into smaller groups. I'd say the ease of commenting at getoutthere is one of that site's strongpoints (even if the site is going through a lull at the moment -- change is on the air... i'll ditch the crappy metaphors now)

Unlike Andrew, I don't OFTEN regret my postings, though I have to admit to being out of order from time to time. The thing about Stuart's remarks is that it doesn't matter whether anybody finds it amusing or tongue-in-cheek, if Karl finds it personally offensive then Stuart should apologise then shut up about it. It's not really nice to abuse somebody in public for amusement, that's why Jeremy Beadle is the most-hated man in Britain, and Anne Robinson the most-hated woman!

Mark - I'm sorry you didn't think my response to your thread on why you'd been cherried gave you an answer - I thought I'd explained why I would have cherried it (if I had been the editor in question. ) As to detailed feedback - no, it doesn't happen as much as anyone would want; but the only way anyone gets any is if people give it. A lot of people want to wait for someone to come and spend some time giving them feedback, but without offering it out. If you do give it to others, I'm fairly confident it will come around and improve the benefit that both parties get out of the site. As Chant has said, you can learn a lot by reading other writers, even when they don't do it as well as you might hope, it makes your mind think about the way you would have done it differently. Stuart - goodbye. I think it is more than a little saucy to tell other people when it is time to leave a party. If you've had enough, then fine, get your coat and say goodbye, but don't expect everyone else to turn off the stereo and walk you home.

chant: Yes, I did start a thread on one of Fey's poems with a detailed critique. Andrew: As to the cherry question I'd really hoped for an answer from the specific editor who'd picked it, the rest is just speculation to me. What I'd really like is for evey cherry to be accompanied by at least a sentence on why, that way I can understand what others see as a good poem, and maybe work out what it a bad poem, because I still have no idea. Otherwise the cherry isn't much more than a lottery. When I say I like something on email list I always try to give reasons, even when my perception is a bit weak and flabby, it's better than nothing. Miles: As for the Crit Game, how where when??? Have not noticed this on the site. Anyway, I am not saying ABC has no purpose and isn't good at what it does, jusy pointing out the weaknesses. If I thought it was a waste of time I wouldn't use it (and clearly I do if you look at the number of pieces I have on the site).

If you go to the discussion board at www.getoutthere.bt.com, start a thread asking to join the Crit Game. There's a woman called Sooz who will add you to the list. As it happens, my piece is up for attention this week (under my psuedonym Gary Kemble, the piece is called Afghanistan: on the Home Front). We post the crits on the discussion board, or will email them to you if you like. (I think you'll probably have to register as a GOT user, just so you can upload the piece so everyone has access to it)

excuse me... what I'm saying is that a writer (with a capital Ruh) learns nothing from other writers. A writer (with a capital Rah) should sit in a room on their own and write and they most definitlely should not go to back-slapping reading nights or nightschool classes. That's what I'm saying. I'm also saying that I want to have a big fight with Karl Wiggins because he is a big puff.

Hi Stuart! Good to hear from you! What's this with Karl, from my virtual doings with you, I realy admire you both! Anyway hope your well, you're a smashing writer.

OK, well I write, and I write stuff that I like, that I like to read. But it seems, other people don't like the things I like, so I want to know why. Not necessarily to change what I write, more to know if I should do anything with it. I mean I've seen a lot of stuff that get's published that I just wouldn't want to write.

DEATH TO THE WIGGINS!!!!

The problem with starting a thread discussing someone else's writing is that they might not want all and sundry discussing it. (they might prefer emails). It would be good if there was an easy email link. PS I'm not one of those people. I'd love for someone to start a thread discussing one of my stories.

Stu 1. Karl is a pal to many. Start a war with him and you start a war with an army. 2. Have you been to any of the reading nights? It’s like slagging a book that you have never read. 4. The so-called 'Night classes' were superb. I learnt a lot personally from the Letters Academy and am already reaping the benefits. 5. As a wind up merchant, you are definitely second division (and I should know). Ralph x PS. Could you put this banana skin that you have just slipped on in the bin on your way out? There's a good boy.

stuart its completely irrelevant to anyone on these forums what your opinion of karl is. stop being such a bad mannered, inconsiderate a.r.s.e

i don't know... i find stuart kind cute. does anyone have a pic of him?

Miles - most people have their email address under their user name on each piece. Those who don't have exercised their choice and decided that they would rather not have people email them. For those of you who are undecided, who would like feedback but don't want your home email being common knowledge, you can spend a minute or two setting up an abc email account in your user-name, then you can come and get and send feedback while keeping your home account private.

And this is progressing your writing Stuart ? I don't care for long goodbyes myself. If I tell people I'm leaving on a Tuesday, I don't tend to still be there on a Friday.

i don't do goodbyes at all. je pars comme un anglais, sans dire adieu!

That was my feeling Mississippi - I don't think you can insult someone tongue in cheek unless they're in on it and I don't think Karl was. With a collection of egos and personalities, you can't always like everyone and you certainly won't agree with everything that is said, but descending to personal abuse is beneath an intelligent adult.

*manages to prevent gag about not being beneath an intelligent adult for ages*

Thanks for those sentiments, guys. Stuart's obviously a crank, but I quite enjoy his rantings.

On the subject of writing web sites, I'll offer my (limited) experience with www.zoetrope.com This is a web site set up by Francis Ford Coppola's Zoetrope Studios. If offers an opportunity for authors, photographers, and some other artists types to post their stuff and get feedback. It's also potentially a way to get a short story into Coppola's Zoetrope All-Story magazine, which is a highly respected forum for short story writing in the U.S. and is generally credited for reviving the form in America. So, I joined, as have at least one or two others here from abctales. They have a very different operating principle. A brand new member can post one piece in a given category, let's say a short story. The piece goes live, others can read and review it. Only the author sees the reviews. However, before the author can see the reviews, he/she must review 5 other short stories. The review must be at least 200 words (I think, or maybe 100, I forget). After posting 5 reviews, the new author can then read the reviews already posted on his/her first piece. Then, before being able to post a second piece, the writer must post 5 new reviews, the he/she is entitled to post a new story. The good news is that this ensures everyone gets a number of reviews for each piece posted. The bad news is that this process is a ton of work. I posted one short story, then had to read and review 5 short stories before I could even read the reviews of my piece. I posted a short piece of "flash fiction" (under 1000 words): same process. I also posted a photograph: same process. So I got some feedback, which was interesting, some of it even useful, but GEEEEZ it's a full-time job for crying out loud. They also have discussion forums, which from my limited reading of them, are truly pathetic compared to some of the very clever stuff we get here (along with the dreck, but there it goes). They also offer a chat room for each category and email (but not email reviews). So that's someone else's idea of how to do it. It has it's points, but frankly, the 10 pieces I read were nothing special, though there is some good stuff on the site and in their magazine. Even the photographs were nothing special. The one I posted was much better, and so they thought as well. I also bear in mind that Zoetrope Studios has a ton more money to spend on clever tech stuff than is available here, but frankly, I'm not racing around making ready to post another story to zoetrope, whereas i will continue to post things here, so maybe that's the bottom line, at least for me.

I've been on Zoe for about two and a half years. I like it a lot. The workshopping of stories is good with detailed reviews and criticism exchanged. I have my own private room where I can choose the people I want to talk to and a private chat room. Lots of nice stuff. Good friends also, mostly from the States, but also from all around the world. The poetry wing is dire, however.

karl, If I may say, I think you have handled this particulary well. If someone has a serious disagreement, they should spell it out clearly, rather then resort to esoteric shadow boxing.. and personal insults always uncalled for..

'esoteric shodow boxing' Jesus.

Who said that they were leaving?

On the Scifantastic! website they have a system where you can submit your opinion of a particular piece and it appears instantly at the bottom of the story. Good idea no?

If someone has a serious disagreement, they should spell it out clearly, rather then resort to Jesus.. Thanks stuartwr.

Stuart, If you have a grievance with me, then why not come right out and say it? Don't beat about the bush. However, accepting that you dislike me to the point of actually wanting me dead, I'm wondering if you can clear one little thing up for me. Why? I'm just curious as to what I've ever done to you that has got under your skin so much. I'm sure you could trade insults. In fact, I've no doubt you'd be very good at that. But I'll be interested to see you justify your hatred.

DEATH TO WIGGINS!! Lol I only heard great things about Karl. The fight is on...

I suggest you all read some of stuarts work. I think I am correct when I say he was on this site before anyone else participating in this thread was. his work was featured in the first abc offline mag and he writes better than most of his detractors here. having said that it is no excuse for his rudeness except that I detect it is tongue in cheek (to coin an oft used cliche in this forum when the going gets tough). check out his work especially the piece that refers to his mental illness. when someone puts their name to a thread such as this you have to give them credit for: a) putting their balls on the line (initial post) b) picking a fight (subsequent posts) as opposed to the last few people that attacked the site under such titles as 'the disenchanted' and 'forum dogs' or whatever the tossers called themselves under their hidden guises. Stuart has a valid point. damn - now do i mean about Karl (who has ralph's barmy army behind him - back to the wall Karl) or the site? I think the site is brilliant but if you really want to move on in the writing world you owe it to yourself to check out other avenues. personally, I see myself here for a long long time yet.

I agree. Stuart's work was the first I ever read on the site. He is a damn good writer. Read his stuff first. I also KNOW it's tongue in cheek...so don't take offence.

Stuart - in what sense of the word did you mean "now" ?

Yes, if you're going to improve as a writer you shouldn't just stay in a comfort zone. But, writing is a good way of improving, and for me, it is easier to write a piece knowing that at least a handful of people will read it, while I'm shaping up the work that I'll send to publishers and wait nine weeks for the letter back. Improving as a writer and moving on in the writing world can be two different things. My stuff isn't commercial and I know it, but I would prefer to write pieces that are nearer to the way I imagine them to be before I start typing, than to find a more commercial style. Others may not - everyone has to find what they want out of writing and find a way to achieve it. Stormy, I've only seen two detractors of Stuart on this thread (three if you count me, and I wasn't intending to criticise him or his work, I just thought he was being saucy and over-pushy) - neither of them slated his work and both were more concerned with his "tongue-in-cheek" attack on Karl. abctales is not a substitute for writing, or for life - it's just a website. If that's what Stuart meant, then I agree.

Spag Fancy a dog biscuit?? Ralph

Stormy I bet you are a big AC/DC fan. Well said. Ralph

Oh sorry Stuart, so the initial title of this thread meant that everyone else should leave and you would stay on your own ?

I don't understand this thread at all. :0(((((( ============skydolphin

yes Andrew, you are quite right and I now wish there was a forum edit button. I should not have said that stuart was a better writer than his detractors for a start. That was out of order and I apologise to any offended by that remark. I got a little carried away and had the demon in me. One thing you do get with me, I always admit when I am wrong.

Dog biscuit? oooh yummy..you can pat me on the back and stoke my head if you like, Ralph!