How much would you pay for criticism?
Wed, 2001-11-28 17:12
#1
How much would you pay for criticism?
I've just been given a little printed handout for a "manuscript assessment and editorial advice" agency which would like to charge me £40 for assessing a story of up to four thousand words, or the (not inconsiderable) sum of £90 for a synopsis and up to fifty double-spaced pages. Nice work..
Has anyone used these agencies - virtually all of which have sprung up over the last five or ten years? If so, did you get value for money? Several things put me off, apart from the cost: these people are "editors and writers" with a background in publishing - well, my daughter had a holiday job with a publishers, so she could write that in her CV! Alternately, they've "taught creative writing on prestigious university courses." Which? Oh, and do these courses turn out thousands of published writers, then? Where are they?
The question is, if these people are good enough to tell me what's wrong with my stuff, how much more successful are they? Have they been published - and, if so, can I see some of their stuff beforehand? If not, how dare they criticise other writers' work and get paid for it? Have they actually written more than I have? I doubt it. Is it better? It may well be, but who knows? Are they better academically qualified or experienced than I am? Even if they are, what's to prevent someone with a very different taste in literature to my own ripping my stuff to shreds when someone on the next desk might take an entirely different view?
The publishing world seems to be packed with people with big opinions - but who've never, mysteriously, made much of a splash in the publishing pool themselves. I've only used an editor once - picked from the WAYB, and I'd never recommend her.. any English teacher should have done better, and her promo literature (which I only saw AFTER parting with my cash, unfortunately) contained several grammatical errors plus the added bonus of a dead obvious spelling mistake. I was well pleased..
Anyone else feel that these agencies and individuals have sensed that there's a lot of potential authors, and therefore a shedload of easy cash to be made out there?
Penumbra
You must not give up! Being a writer means just that, by continuously improving yourself. Sooner or later, and I know you're probably sick to death of hearing this, but when your words are good enough, someone will publish them. It might not be for money. So what? It's the recognition I hear you screaming for and rightly so. Then stop worrying about what other people think and make yourself proficient in your own eyes. The confidence will grow as you begin to produce literary gems that others cannot deny.
The publications are out there. The editors are waiting for you, possibly watching this forum. They can't exist without good material. They need you as much as you need them. Knowing this, write something to intrigue them. Search for a target audience. Find a zine. Haunt your computer and create hundreds of things until something brilliant bursts out. It may take time, but what of it? No room for self pity here, just hard work and endurance. I wish you good luck.
Roy.
Sorry if that sounded like a load of self-pity, Pen - it wasn't meant to. It was really an attempt to point out the futility of trusting "experts" who know bugger-all more than you do about it, and an attempt to see if anyone else has had any experience - good or bad - of using these editors and agencies. Thankfully, very few seem to: or, if people have, are they just keeping quiet about it?
stormy
The only thing I would query in this thread is the assumption that just because someone is not a writer they cannot criticise writers work.
The best film/theatre critics are not always (if at all) ex actors/directors/whatever. The best football managers are rarely the greatest ex players (peter taylor, svengod, houlier, wenker(sorry), fergiescum, I could go on forever) - (I could do the reverse and mention keegan but I won't).
My best critic is my wife. She never writes simply because she does not want to. She knows what is technically good as well as what is just a damn good yarn (hence her disassociation with my stuff) and teaches literacy to kids.
Without readers a writer is nothing. The best critics are surely your readers some of whom will never lift pen to paper but do know what they like. Sure, another writer of great credentials could give you a good technical crit. but that does not mean your potential readers will like it.
A decent editor will know what is good (sellable I think is the topic in this thread) even if they have never written a word in their life. (bear in mind here that, as usual, I know diddly squat - it is all supposition with me).
Finally, the format Andrea mentions is similar to that used on many crit. sites out on the web that are run by amateurs and are free of charge. Not saying they are any good but I am saying that the feedback you get from an amateur site will be ten times better (and harsher - which is good) than that from the pay sites - they do not want to piss off their paying clients too much do they?
marami
why pay anything at all just to be told -inevitably -your're crap? It's all a rip off.
Andrea
Writers Brew do a very good one, Roy, and a helluva lot cheaper than you mentioned above. Also, although I've never actually used this particular service, I HAVE had a lot of dealings with the editor (Amanda Gillies), who's a fantastic lady and whom I trust implicitly.
For interested parties: www.writersbrew.fsnet.co.uk
Critique Service Charges
£5 up to 3,000 words up to a value of £80 per story.
Prices start at £5.00 per piece of work up to 3,000 words. This is for a one or two page critique on general content and readability.
Over 3,000 words, please add £1.00 per 1,000 words.
Up to a monetary value of £80.
A full novel or an anthology of short stories of up to 80,000 words will cost £80 to critique in full.
Over 80,000 word count, please add £2.00 per 1,000 words.
An SAE with the appropriate postage is required for the return of all manuscripts and critiques.
A critique covers some or all of the following headings and covers up to two A4 sheets of paper, depending upon work submitted (Short Stories). Novels & Novellas receive one A4 sheet for each chapter when possible.
We aim to give all our members the best possible service.
While we try to be helpful, supportive and constructive, critiques are blunt and do not hold-back punches. If you are of the opinion that your work is perfect or are easily upset, do not ask for a critique from anyone you do not know. Friends and family are kind and will always tell you it’s great, we won’t.
The Headings of each section we use for our critiques
Beginning:-
Middle:-
End:-
Characters:-
Dialogue:-
Monologue:-
Point of View:-
Character Building:-
Construction:-
Grammar & Layout:-
Location Comments:-
Tension & Plot:-
Overall Impression and possible markets for this work:-
Most, if not all, of the above headings are used for each critique.
andrew pack
Interesting comment. I (eight weeks ago now) sent off a piece to an agent, who was charging a £7 reading fee; and have I heard anything back ? Likewise, I always look at writing competitions, assess prize against entry fee and the phrase "nice little earner" comes into my mind.
I think this sort of thing might be useful in a proof-reading sense, since you can often read your own piece and not spot that a word you thought was "carve" was actually "cave", or that you've made some grammatical errors; but I can't see it helping all that much with the quality of writing rather than presentation. That sum seems far too high for me. There are plenty of people here who are good writers, strong on grammar and actually do a bit of freelancing - anyone interested in undercutting these chumps ?
Andrea
Yep (sorry Amanda) - love to!
Seriously though, she really is good and I would still love to...
Andrea
Er...Andrew, why aren't you at the do??
Andrea
Oh dear.
Having said all that, I have to mention that I'm in no way qualified, of course. I'd just do it for fun (except poetry, which everyone knows I'm..er..not too au fait with) and to help someone if I could...
Penumbra
Roy,
Don't pay. It isn't worth the aggravation. You'll learn what you need to know about yourself by submitting stories to zines and getting rejected. If you want to pick up on editor attitudes about your work, include a cover check sheet with categories like POV, WEAK DIALOGUE etc. and ask them to give an indication why you were rejected. This will prove much more valuable than soliciting comments from people who try to make money out of your unsuccess.
Also, do a lot of writing because that is how you begin to catch your own errors without having to rely on the opinions of others. Granted, you have to do that, but let it be in a venue other than a critique haven. I just posted one of my earliest shorts, one my wife likes but never showed anyone. It's under humor entitled "Undivined Comedy." It was my beginning many years ago. You can do it too.
andrew pack
Andrea :-
Not at the do because last train back from London to Lincoln is at 8.30 pm - so I would have to take 2 days off work. Once they have one on a Friday, I will be there.
Still resistant to poems then ? I was never a fan, but have been converted by some of the poems I've read here - it finally managed to get rid of those old connotations of "Alas, a cornflower !" that I had from school.
I have done some people on the site a detailed critique - where I mark in bold my comments on their text. I am prepared to do this for people (within reason, I can't do more than one a day realistically). And of course, I am no expert - I judge them more as a reader than as a writer.
Andrea
I agree with you, Penumbra, that you get far more feedback, including reason for rejection, from the zines most of which, in my experience, is extremely helpful and constructive. However, you get no feedback whatsoever from the 'glossies' ( who are, let's face it, the Big Payers), just the standard (unhelpful) rejection letter.
And, to be fair, I don't think a fiver is too much to pay for an honest and lengthy crit from someone who runs, amongst other things, a very successful small press publication herself.
The cover check sheet is a wonderful idea in theory, but I wonder how many ed's (even small press, with whom I've had a lot of dealings in the past - and still do) would have the time or, possibly, inclination to fill in 100 or so every week? By all means give it a go - but I wouldn't hold my breath
Karl Wiggins
Talking of scams conning innocent writers out of their giros. See my last comment in the "Hidden Cave" thread, about 20/25 threads down.
justyn_thyme
The title of this thread reminded me of a joke I heard in a British TV sitcom during my first visit here in 1971:
First man: Sir, I did not come here to be insulted!
Second man: Well, where do you usually go?
On a more serious not, I've always been told that most of the critique for pay offers are scams, though there are a few which are legitimate. I've also been told that neither a publisher nor a literary agent should charge a reading fee, but that might vary as well.
Ive never done any of these things, though I did send some drawings/cartoons to a U.S. publisher a few years ago (same people who publish Far Side). Typical American way of doing business, though: no response for ages, even though their web site promised at least an acknowledgement in 6 weeks. Then I sent them an email stating that since they had not responded to my previous 5 emails over the course of 4 months, I assumed they had stolen my work and if I did not hear from them within 48hours the next email would be from my attorney.
One hour later (I kid you not: one hour) I received an email from them. Gee, wonder why? They claimed not to have received anything, having looking high and low for it and suggested I send it again. One week after that, I received my submission back in the normal post. HAHAHA "They never received it" but they were able to send it back to me after I threatened a lawsuit. Of course, they did not return the imprinted coffee mugs that were part of the original submission. Hmmm. Another puzzler. They told me my stuff was not consistent with their plans for new material, which I'm sure was true. I'd never expected a result in first place, but at least not lying would have been nice.
Andrea
Realised later (see above) that Penumbra is a New Yorker and it might very well be that the zine scene in the States differs greatly from that in the UK (which is the one that I've had the most experience with).
Apologies, Penumbra, if that is so.
*dashes off quick submission to Wester Humanities Review, Salt Lake City*
sarahjane
Quite right Penumbra.
I once paid for criticism and all I got was an e-mailed message along these lines:
'You spelled such and such wrong'
'You used the first person instead of the third'
etc etc. Okay, so these are important points and ones I need to think about. But I was hoping for an opinion. Was my work good enough? Did I have a hope in hell's chance of getting published.
Anyway, when I was very ickle - about 15 I think - I sent a rubbish story to a young girl's glossy mag. I got back a really nice, personal rejection letter, a house style sheet and tips on how to improve my story.
So it goes to show that some editors are human.
In summation, I think it's a waste of time and money paying for critiques. Other writer's honest feedback and your own critical eye is much more valuable. And it's free!
Penumbra
The key to useful criticism is honest opinion. Opinion used not to be rare. In fact, in my youth, people had to be stifled for expressing themselves overly well. Alas, after Nixon, its hard to get anybody, soda jerks, elephant cleaners, string removers or any of us normal folk, to commit what we really think of something to another. (I'm excepting people like myself who have no fear of wrathful controversy.) When was the last time you got your mate to admit the awful truth about your...? Or your co-worker, was he willing to spill the beans about what they're all saying about ....? See what I mean.
That leaves honesty! Now I realize that for a Brit, a fag in Trafalgar Square is totally unlike one in NYC's Washington Square. On the other hand, those fags with supposedly less tar have been shown to be just as capable of laboriously killing you as the excessively tarred polyps all along. The whole advertising thing has been a farce to get people to buy fags. DISHONEST! Faced with garbage like that, I have no idea how you're going to get a bloke to admit that your story sucks and really mean it. You might want to consider threatening behavior, but that rather defeats the purpose of begging for assistance.
If all else fails, and it appears it has, perhaps Madagascar or New Zealand appeals to you. I understand the natives have not quite mastered deception or silence. Surely you can thrill such captive audiences with your dramas with greater luck, especially if you want truly honest opinions.
Roy.
Yeah, I'm encouraged by above - thanks, everyone. I, too, am always put off short story comps by the mere existence of a fee. Okay, a fiver's not much, but a lot of fivers sure is. The place Andrea recommends sounds good value for money.. but, honesty isn't the only problem. I've got this leaflet again, and it says.. quote "For those exceptional cases when work is suitable for submission to an agent or publisher with a genuine chance of publication.." Exceptional sounds encouraging, doesn't it? Wow, I'm just gonna dash in there waving a big cheque right now!
As we all know, the publishing world is just like the music business - the same stuff goes on getting turned down until maybe.. just maybe.. someone sees something in it. Could be the first agent, could be the thousandth. It's all chance, isn't it? Even if an agent thinks it's wonderful, perhaps he'll know of something similar just about to be published, and it's back to square one. Worse, because your manuscript's now literally unsaleable.
So many questions, so few real answers..