Punctuation and Paragraphing Anarchy

I wonder whether many of the stories on abctales were originally better paragraphed? One often has to edit one's posted work and re-paragraph it as the divisions between paragraphs (especially indented ones) disappear on posting. Unfortunately one then has to choose between leaving dense masses of text on the site for a while or hogging the "last ten posted" slot. I imagine vast audiences of disapproving (non-)readers in both instances. Life is such torment! ;-) Another quirk of this site is that slashes are inserted in front of percentage marks. Does anyone have an explanation?

Should there be other stuff informing it? Only if you're unhappy with your paragraphing. It's *your* story, after all. You can do what the hell you like with it.

Wow.. you're right ..everything seems so much clearer now!!!.. Do we have the right to abolish our own threads..? Coz I think I just started the most mundane one in the history of this site.. just felt like adding something to Writing tips, really...

A new paragraph in fiction is normally used to indicate change in some way - if the action shifts to another place, time, mood or whatever; in non-fiction, usually to make another point (a "paragraph sentence" makes a point, the following sentences in the paragraph back it up). But they're really there just to make writing more readable. English teachers are really driving paragraphs home. And looking at some of the stories on ABC, it's easy to see why.

no Andrew ! I think it's a good subject as it made me really think about paragraphs and have to admit that a lot of the time how I split up prose is purely subjective and unconscious. I know that if in doubt I would sooner make an extra paragraph break rather than leave a big mass of words. A new paragraph gives you the opportunity to take a breath or change your tone of voice. Even if it's the voice inside your head.

I think someone on one of the threads was asking the question ..what's the difference between poetry and prose? My immediate answer would be.. I'm really not quite sure. But what I don't find addressed very often are our differing reasons for the actual, physical splitting up of chunks of text on a page. Like, Gavin ..I like to give my prose lots of space and will use many excuses for separating out paragraphs. What I find is that we are somehow taught at school things like punctuation and paragraphing and we actually lose touch with the specific reasons for using these things as we do. I do, anyway My analysis is a bit vague because I WAS very bad at english language and I've forgotten the terms used but.. what I'm gettin at is how should we question our use of paragraphing and punctuation.. I'm not sure whether I agree with Paul when he says punctuation and paragraphing simply make writing more readable.. what does that mean?? I agree in the sense that certain patterns of speech (which to my mind can never be wholly split up from written words) dictate a certain use of punctuation for example.. other times I can feel that I've read a sentence wrongly ..and I read that sentence over and not find any punctuation problems with it.. where does the balance lie?? The same inconsistencies come about when it comes to poetry.. I can read a poem with no punctuation and find that it doesn't seem irregular or badly paced for the lack of punctuation. The same with net conversations.. I believe I can relate to the pattern of speech in the message, regardless of punctuation, at times. I think this has to do with the question of whether our concept of a sentence comes from the written page ..or is there a concept of the sentence that we intuit by just directly talking to each other, that we are exposed to earlier. Got a bit lost, there.. think we would need a sample text of some kind.. All right. To get people thinking ..lets get to the crux of it. Sample 'chunk'. Tell me if there is anything RIGHT or WRONG (grammatically, paragraphically, punctuationally (?) etc) with the following piece of text BUT GIVE YOUR REASONS!! It's not very long, honest.. ----------------------- As usual, Susan started school at nine. Another day. It wasn't quite that time yet. She glanced up from her watch. Twelve to. She began to feast. Gorge. It had become her habit to roam the room's surfaces before leaving the house. Made leaving an even more important act than it usually seemed. She gave in to her routine. She didn't huddle out of the house like before. She gorged first, ..skipped, even. The browning cornices in the corners of the ceiling. The spongy old beige wallpaper. Like a computer screen, she thought. Like surfing. Her mouse skating down ..as it ran over the objects in the room. She thought of the room as a list, somewhere in the middle, the dent in the wall that Ray had left ..she paused in her theory. Rubbed her hand. The difference being that none of these objects seemed like options ..to click on them would not send her wheeling through a library of pop-up charts ..of possibilities. More. The wall and the empty curtain rail over the hall window.. Tom's crayon drawing of the back of a ten pence piece on the pinboard.. Maura's Degree Certificate. Mum whistled in the kitchen. Susan looked up through the window and saw a grey cloud floating above next door's roof. Uncle Ian. Definitely. She traced the outline of his face on the glass, leaving long smudge marks. ------------------------ I could go on waffling ..but I'll leave it at that. This piece wasn't prepared by the way...

I can't see any glaring punctuation errors - anything I would change would be a matter of personal choice. "She thought of the room as a list, somewhere in the middle, the dent in the wall that Ray had left ..she paused in her theory." This an odd lay-out for prose; it's more common in poetry to see a part of a sentence on a new line. Haven't got anything against it though. Can I make a quick plug for the great, oft-ignored semi-colon. Well used, and controlled, it really can enrich the layout of writing. Honestly! Here's an alternative layout of this story: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- As usual, Susan started school at nine. Another day. It wasn't quite that time yet. She glanced up from her watch. Twelve to. She began to feast. Gorge. It had become her habit to roam the room's surfaces before leaving the house. Made leaving an even more important act than it usually seemed. She gave in to her routine. She didn't huddle out of the house like before. She gorged first, ..skipped, even. The browning cornices in the corners of the ceiling. The spongy old beige wallpaper. Like a computer screen, she thought. Like surfing. Her mouse skating down ..as it ran over the objects in the room. She thought of the room as a list, somewhere in the middle, the dent in the wall that Ray had left..she paused in her theory. Rubbed her hand. The difference being that none of these objects seemed like options ..to click on them would not send her wheeling through a library of pop-up charts ..of possibilities. More. The wall and the empty curtain rail over the hall window.. Tom's crayon drawing of the back of a ten pence piece on the pinboard.. Maura's Degree Certificate. Mum whistled in the kitchen. Susan looked up through the window and saw a grey cloud floating above next door's roof. Uncle Ian. Definitely. She traced the outline of his face on the glass, leaving long smudge marks. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Now do you understand what I mean by more (or less) readable? Without any sense of when the writer wants you to take a break, or stop and think; when he/she is moving the story on, is making a new point, or indicating change, it is quite clearly LESS readable. Plus, it's off-putting. I probably wouldn't have started reading the second layout.

Yes.. you're right.. this second example does seem less readable to me. In the end Rokkitnite is probably right and I just had a huff.. it IS very subjective. As far as these examples go.. it is important, as far as I can see.. to make a distinction between what the character is seeing and what she is thinking ..and the paragraphing is far and away more important in doing that than the punctuation, maybe.. Any more alternate renderings of this chunk would be interesting to read.. Perhaps we could find a different balance. Feel free to take words out or add to it if you like.. Another point to make.. perhaps an important one, would be to find out if editors of stories have any strict rules for what they will and won't except as far as publishing goes.. if anyone has had dealings with publishers over their prose.. perhaps they could tell us if there are any standard rules as far as paragraphing and punctuation goes. Is it all subjective or are there certain things that are just definite no-no's? Should the writer have a few concrete rules in his/her head whilst writing or are editors fairly relaxed abt this kind of stuff?