Leni Riefenstahl

Yes sabelle, me too, I wouldn't be here and several of my Uncles gave everything they had to defeat the evil. I have been to Dacu "a birdless place" stale and shockingly a non remorseful place, a horrible monument to cruelity. I have seen it in my mind working. As I said given time you can separate the personality from the Art. never the Artist from the work. The law judged her and could find no cause, her Art both film and stills are stunning as has been said here. You have to judge whether they are good or bad. Learn about her work before you put her in a box with the tyrants. Germany was full of people spellbound by Hitler at that time, that dosen't make them all accompliaces to murder. Look at the facts, she was a woman in the 1930's male dominated film industry. She became top of her genre when you could be killed for you political view, but she never joined the Natzi Party. If I have a bad thought do I become eternally bad? I don't honour this woman but I am prepared to look at her Art objectivly within the historic context. But given all that your view is as valid as mine given your own standpoint, and I don't know what that is! But I do respect your view! Have a look at Inside Dachau by Sherman Alexi, his poems are also Art Regards, Creek

I'm sort of caught in the middle here. I hear what your saying, Creekend Poet, but I also find myself going along with sabelle. Perhaps it's because Leni's politics were divorced from her art (maybe the footballers too) but the rappers make it very much part of their "art". And if we're going to condemn people for their misguided beliefs, what about all those who embraced Thatcherism?

Oh they weren't misguided fecky.

They were mentally retarded.

creekend, `Germany was full of people spell bound to hitlar at the time, that doesn't make them all accompliaces to murder'. Is their ignorancy not a conspirency in it self, i mean what exactly did the massses not understand about people being rounded up and executed, for nothing.

Stephen-d That is a tough one to answer, Nationalism in that context meant putting your country first and at that time Germany felt it had been humiliated by the treaty they signed after the First World War. Germans wanted to put Germany first because they had a pretty appalling economic slump, and if that meant boosting their economy by militarization and invading nearby disputed territories and rounding up ethnic groups and unconventional people and putting them in to camps, then I guess you are right. Most Germans would have known that was happening. But I think it would be a bit like what we knew about the Sangatte camp in France or the camps that we keep illegal immigrants in at the moment. They would have thought that their Government was going to use them legally and probably had no reason to believe that wholesale murder was being planned. There is a great leap in credibility over believing that all of Germany knew the purpose of the death camps at the outset. Probably toward the end of the War there was an awareness that these terrible places were places of slaughter. Certainly around the camps and it is starting to look like the Allies knew also and did very little about them. What you have to remember is that toward the end of the Third Reich, it became a reign of terror against its own people too. You could be guillotined or shot if you were “suspected” of being a spy or a sympathiser with the Allies. There were a lot of good German people as well as bad and cynical Allies. War is not black and white and (yes it is a cliché) “Truth is the first causality of War” Stephen on both sides. So to answer your point ignorance of the death camps does not constitute complicity with the murder that occurred in them. But to get back to the Thread that started all this, what we were discussing was, should we accept “Art” from someone who was associated with an evil regime? I find this a bit of a surprising question because we regularly buy German and Japanese cars and goods from Companies that built machines of destruction for the Second World War. BMW, Mercedes, Mitsubishi all build fighter planes and guns that killed people! But the connection would not put you off buying a brand new “Beema” (BMW) or Merc if you could afford one. So why do we make the distinction with Art? I guess you may say well the difference is that it was her own work, its personal. But then do you label everyone who took a “Spanish Holiday” before Franco died as supporting Fascism? Because believe me he was the only man in charge! Leni Riefenstahl was a film maker, so long as you realise that some of the films she made were made for propaganda purposes, there is no reason why you should not look at her Art and appreciate it, or not depending on whether you feel it is good Art or bad Art.

I have to agree with Stephen. Eddie McGoldrick played for Arsenal, but was hated by every Gooner I know because of his racist views. Vieiri is hated for his views, so is Amoruso. The fans in Macedonia burned the English flag and shouted racist abuse. Do we care whether these players are world class or not? I hope not.

Hi Seb From the appreciation of Art, we’ve gone to the battlefield, now to the football pitch? Not really seeing the connection now. Sorry probably me, but what is the connection? Are you saying that if you have one racist thought, you are a racist forever? And then if you happen to be a footballer with reportedly racist views, your football somehow doesn't matter? And that strangely supports the idea that all Germans alive during WWII were accomplices in the master plan to rid their world of ethnic groups that were not Arian? Please I am here to learn, but in words a non football fan can understand please. Ta, Creek

You have to understand creaky, that sadbelle is on a mission. She's in the employ of the FA to make sure no one gets through the day with out being aware of footbawl.

Lord knows that i will regret taking anything seriously a guy called missi says, but do you know, I am going to wave the white flag on this one and go and think for some relaxation! Thank you missi you have put this thread clearly into perspective, i am obliged! Good night!

> in the pursuit of beauty? she was obviously as mad as Victoria station in the rush hour or any hour for that matter. she was under Hitler's spell just like the rest of Germany. what did she do after the war?

She took the most incredible photographs. There are two book of her photos of the Nuba tribe in Africa taken in the 60s. They are some of the most beautiful images I have ever seen but once you begin to think about them there is a strange 'them and us' lilt about them - as if she viewed the Nuba as other than human. I suspect that she was one of those artistic people who don't regard themselves as political at all - merely in search of beauty and truth etc - but of course we all are - and she was very political indeed. Her beliefs shine through her work and sadly those beliefs are not ones of which she should be proud.

"she was obviously as mad as Victoria station in the rush hour or any hour for that matter. " She was a bit like Stutart then.

really interesting essay by Susan Sontag on this very topic. My own personal take is that she was working in cooperation with the National Socialist heirarchy. Why did they think she was the person to do the job? I would say because she was someone who was very, very much in tune with their thinking, maybe not at a policy level but at a deeper level. Fascist aesthetics are still fascist. [%sig%]

....and beautiful photos are still beautiful.

Missi's right, I put things in terms of my obsessions. But I will explain in non footballing terms. Music - some say Snoop Doggy Dogg is a genius. I object to terms such as b**ches, wh**es, ni**ers. I will not listen to him because I object to his songs. No, it's not once racist always racist, but if a person never comes out and says that they were mistaken, foolish or whatever, they remain to the outside world as racist. A person can be the best footballer, singer, phtographer etc but their views colour our view of them. OK I lied. Take Bowyer, Woodgate & Bellamy (the original whys men). All have been accused of racist attacks. Playing for Newcastle United, could I ever cheer them on. NO. Would I believe them if they said they no longer had racist views? NO. I could see that they scored a great goal, if any of them came to Arsenal, I would seriously question whether I could support the club whilst they were there. Sorry, but I have to take the person as a whole. Others can separate.

It’s the Art of Nationalism, powerful and dominating, Roman, British, Third Reich. You don’t have to subscribe to the ideal behind it to appreciate the Art! Sad then such a museum of this type of Art would be banned under existing German law, and even sadder, that if a museum did exist like this it would become a shrine to neo-Nazism! History will judge her and her Art, just like some of those have already on this thread.

Who the hell is Snoop Doggy Dogg? He isn't the one who keeps crapping on my driveway surely.

No, Missi. Please don't say you don't know who he is. An American rap artist. Along with Dr Dre, Busta Rhymes, 50 Cent & Eminem. An education for you!!!

Umm! Sab, I really wasn’t going to utter any more on this thread as I feel I have been a bit of a hog on this one, possibly “a bore” I’m not sure, you tell me? But this comment is sincerely meant; an appreciation of some ones Art is not an acceptance of their views. I really like surreal paintings particularly Dali’s. I dislike the guy himself “from what I have read about him” (what I mean is I don’t really know him how could I) but I still like his Art. When I first came across Leni Riefenstal’s work it was at a salon of underwater photography, some soft and hard corals, I think. I liked them along with lots of other photographs there. The fact that I later found out her background didn’t change my appreciation of her work. You seem to be a very strong character if your duelling with missi and some of the others is anything to go by (he too by the way). I think you are someone who doesn’t like prejudiced people, race, against women, that sort of thing. But what if I was to say that before you deal with others prejudice, you have to know it in yourself? And that you (and some of the others on this thread) are prejudiced against this woman’s Art for no more reason than she was a naive sop to a fascist dictator who was her patron, many Artists in history have had unsavoury patrons by the way. To deal with prejudice honestly you need to look at the way you think and see if you are applying the same logic that a racist or an anti feminist does. You may be using different labels but are you engaging in the same logic as they do? Look at her work first and say whether you like it or not, don’t look at the woman and dismiss her work because you don’t like her. Because that is prejudice! I’ll say no more now, (sorry for hogging the topic Stuart) but I will read any reply and learn from it. Creek

Can you separate the person from art. If Peter Sutcliffe came out of prison & starting taking photographs of women would people think it was OK?

I dont think you are a bore on it creek - i think you are entirely right, especially when you say to dismiss her work is predjudice... Closing ones eyes to art in any form is a disaster for anyone... I didnt know leni, and there are so many conflicting opinions of her floating around its impossible to get a handle on what she was about politically. We cant ever dismiss peoples work because we dont like them, or what they stood for... we can still appreciate a beautiful eye, and talented thought, an image created whether in word or image. Any woman who can go underwater to discover new methods of photography in her 90's is astonishing, her ability to capture mood and movement was incredibly original and shockingly beautiful whatever she portrayed, and she is one of my heroes for that reason. I dont want to go into her political views, not least of situations that occured more than half a century ago... she was judged in her life, and she lived with that.

When i get a dog and it does the toilet i think i wll say " look the dogs done a leni r.

Yes! You can separate the personality from the Art - Given time. You can never separate the Artist from the work. Would you smash every Roman Column because you didn't agree with the Roman occupation of Britain? Creekend

Well said Creek

Creek & Liana, I think you do have a point. I am intolerant of people who hold prejudiced views. Interestingly enough I was talking to my daughter about this & she felt the same. Maybe being affected by prejudice colours (no pun intended) one's view. I've seen her work & she was very talented but I can't look past her views as I've already said. Creek, making sensible posts can never be boring. It only gets boring if someone makes silly statements or start bickering with others.

But if you suffered during the holocaust, would you be able to forget that she had a connection with Hitler. Creek that argument doesn't work because it wasn't just about colonisation it was about hatred because of religion, sexual persuasion, colour and race. Most of us on here would not be around if Hitler had his way & I find his views and anyone who supports them vile. That's why I cannot separate the two.