Lifer: Living With Murder

Was it a swiss army knife?

come on now Missi, you're just being pedantic. whatever kind of knife was used it was taken there as a weapon and not a useful tool for cleaning fingernails. Saying that, it also brings to light the mentality of people, a useful army knife is a sensible thing in your hands but lethal in someone else's. A fast car is a useful thing in the hands of a competent sober driver but the same car is a killing machine with someone else. It brings me to another topical discussion of today, the sale of fireworks. There's a call for it to be banned but it's just idiots that should be banned. Give me a fast car, an army knife and a firework and I guarantee I'll be no more dangerous than I am right now.

How dangerous are you now Ely?

Rachel, Ely, I'm under the impression - in my own mind at least - that the "murderer" was carrying the knife for no other reason than bravado. To be one of the chaps. Teenage hormones and all that. Just a kid. However, the moment he pulled the knife in anger was the moment he changed from being a kid in the throes of puberty to a nasty little bastard. I may well be wrong, of course. And until we hear the details of the case in a few months time, none of us will know. Lots of kids buy knives. On a school trip to France just about every boy in our class bought a flick-knife. Why? To own a flick-knife, of course. Certainly not with the intention of killing anyone, or even stabbing anyone. We just wanted to own flick-knives. A friend of mine owns a lot of guns. They're all his dad's guns, and he now owns them. But he's never shot anyone. He just keeps them tucked away safely. I, however, have used MacDonald's coffee as a weapon. This was cold and calculated for someone owed my family money and was welching on the deal. I tried three mornings before I found him in. So I certainly can't claim it to be a "spur of the moment" thing, for eah day I had the boiling hot coffee and a get-away driver. It worked. We got our money. At the time I felt this was justified. Who knows? There are no easy answers are there?

I have a relative who is a teacher in the same village, though at a different school. Its a tiny village - the talk (though not from my relative who is stunned) is that the 15 year old boy who stabbed Luke, was a problem pupil, who had been causing significant problems for a long long time. big shame all round, a tragedy for all concerned.

Missi, give me a weekend on boiled eggs and cabbage and a naked flame and I'll show you dangerous!

A bit of an after-burner then Ely.

Sorry karl I dont.

I know what you mean Karl. Sometimes I wonder about the rest of my life. I've (so far) lived a pretty socially acceptable life and as far as I know right now that would never change but I do sometimes thing about what if scenarios... I.e. what if one night i throw all my good intentions away and drive home drunk and kill someone... could happen. even though I despise people who do it. or what if someone hurts me or mine and i loose it and stab them through the heart... a split second of unthinking reactional emotion and you've done something unforgivable. Being quite a stable person i admit that the possibility of this is fortunately remote, but yeah I do wonder sometimes, There but for the grace of God....

I think we all make a subconscious list of things would gladly write off the rest of our lives for: someone attacks a loved one of ours etc. We imagine, in shuddering rage, the consequences of their act but not of our revenge. How far does it go though? One of my dogs was paralysed in the back end the other day. It looked like someone might have poisoned him and I spent the day prowling my house with murderous intent for some imaginary nasty neighbour. He's fine now, it was a trapped nerve that stopped his rear end from working and the strom in my soul has passed but for a while there I was willing to tear someone,anyone, apart. An act that would certainly have resulted in a long prison sentence and my life ruined. I wonder how I would have felt after, say, ten years in prison. Dog's dead, neighbour's dead. All anger passed and now just regret but still probably blame of the instigator and not myself. That's human nature. We spend a fraction of a second making life changing decisions and a life time regretting them but if we can blame someone else to justify our irresponsibility then we will.

I agree Ely. A few years ago my husband was nearly killed in a head on collision with a drunk driver on the wrong side of the road coming around a blind corner. At the time I ranted and raved and would have torn the guy apart with my bare hands. I never felt so much hatred in my life and it was similar to an illness from which you would eventually recover. As time passed the anger went away and I felt desperately sorry for the guy who landed himself 3 months in prison for making one stupid decision. I also felt uncomfortable that we were responsible for him being in jail, even though he was responsible for his actions and will, let's hope, never put anyone elses life in danger. The point is that the moment passes, life carries on and if you had made a split second decision to do something drastic, that moment would never pass for you, let alone the victim of your anger. That said, such hatred can only come from intense love for the person, animal or object that you are trying to protect. But that doesn't make it a good thing always.

you weren't responsible for him being in jail, and 3 months seems a ludicrously short sentence for drink driving, he could have killed, and if he hadn't gone to jail, he might be tempted to do it again, having got away with it that time...

Absolutely, he should have gone to jail (got six months, served 3, lost licence for 2 years). What I meant was that I felt uncomfortable that it was our actions that put him there - even though the guy was blatantly a danger to himself and others. So imagine how I'd have felt if I'd ripped his spleen out through his throat as was my initial fantasy! I'd have been inside, not him, and my rage would still have passed so it would have been for nothing. [%sig%]

it is an interesting question ... is everyone capable of killing ... i would say yes of course ... we would all perhaps say we would kill to protect our loved ones but actually we cannot tell until we are in the situation and hopefully we wont ever be ... i think i wouldnt hesitate if i had the means to kill someone who was about to kill one of my kids, for example ... but i dont really know ... so if we accept we all are capable then we cant be much different from the lifers in prison and out on life licences who have actually killed people ... i have worked in a lifers jail and of course the temptation when you meet these people is to see yourself as no different and these people as no different from the bloke down the pub, or your mate or your boyfriend ... but what i do think is that of all the stories i have heard from these men (it's a men's jail) not a single one of them has said they killed someone right there on the spur of the moment who was threatening a member of their family ... their crimes (the ones i have heard anyway) are much more mundane and sad ... the majority being domestic ... the ones who have told me their stories have just "snapped" when things went too far ... or there are a lot of younger ones in there who accidentally killed people in fights ... so this makes me think there IS a boundary over which most of us wouldn't step ... most of us wouldn't maybe "snap" because our spouse has irritated us once too many times ... most of us probably wouldn't go out drinking with a knife in our pockets ... maybe we are lucky ... and maybe i am wrong ... but i really do conclude that yes in certain absolute circumstances we COULD all kill someone ... but that most people are not like the lifers serving sentences and wouldnt step over that line ... [%sig%]

I agree, Liana, it's an incredible tragedy - (for both families). If he was a problem kid then it's a shame no one was able to reach him before things got this bad. I'm no expert, but I would imagine that a teenage who uses a knife has grown up in tragic circumstances - probably from a broken home or disfunctional family - and has witnessed older relatives use extreme forms of violence in the past. He may well have been wanting to simpy prove how "grown up" he was to an older brother or cousin. Mind you, those are sweeping assumptions. Sod it, no they're not. I can't believe that a kid who grows up with love all around him, and who knows he's loved from an early age, is likely to kill someone before his sixteenth birthday.

I don't believe Jamie Bulgers killers came from bad homes Karl, and they were both far younger than this lad.

yes. it is a tragedy. but what about the rights of other kids to have a stress and fear free place to be educated? It hacks me off no end that problem kids (i feel for them, really i do) get all the attention and care. what about my kid, who doesnt make a fuss, just wants an education? bah...

It's the younger ones I can relate to, Fish. I've never accidentally killed someone in a fight, but I've come close. I worked the doors for several years, as you know, and fought every Friday and Saturday night. I never used a weapon. Never, ever! But I had a mean streak when I was younger. It would serve no purpose to go into details here, but I'm well aware that at least on one occassion I came very, very close. Supposing something had tipped the scales just a little bit one day. I could now be sitting in that very same prison, having wasted twenty or so years. But that was then and this is now, and I like to think - no, I know - that I'm a different, calmer, nicer, more controlled person than I was twenty years ago. I have much more to live for now. An incredible family and great friends. Much better friends than I had in those days. So now? Now I'm okay. Or is there still something dangerous lurking beneath the shadows of my psyche? Something that's been tucked away for twenty years, resting and waiting. Waiting for what? For someone to threaten or hurt my family? Who knows? Scary!

I'm with you Liana, no kid should have to put up with bullying whether in school or out of it.

So the news today and last night is full of a cautionary tale of exactly this. A 15 year old schoolboy in Lincolnshire dies after a school fight in which another pupil stabbed hiim once through the heart with a knife. Now I don't profess to know anything about this case and surely if the other boy was carrying a knife he had some intent to use it, but again, one split second decision results in the death of one young lad and the incarceration for murder of another. Tragic.

George, I DO believe the Bulger killers came from bad homes, but apart from that I couldn't agree more with both your's and Liana's sentiments . I don't wish to come across as another Harold here, but bullying is a truly awful passtime. To see a bully sat on his **** in the middle of the playground in front of the whole school would cause me deep joy. Every child has a right to a stress-free education (without SATS at seven-years of age). My thoughts are ALWAYS with the survivors ..... However ..... I once read this book. It wasn't my knid of a book, but I'd just returned from a month-long intensive and a buddy suggested I should read it. True story. This guy and his girlfriend travelled across California and Nevada picking up teenage hitch-hikers, raping and killing them. A grusome story. But half-way through the book I started to feel sorry for the guy!!! His father had been executed by the state. He had an uncle and three cousins on death row (incredible, I know, but this is the story the book related). His mother was a prostitute and he got "raped" by his auntie when he was 14-years-old. I really had to shake my head about and get back to basics. This was still the bad guy. He couldn't use his life experiences as an excuse. But still, he was never going to grow up to be a choir boy, was he? I blame the parents.

>> surely if the other boy was carrying a knife he had some intent to use it << Not necessarily Rachel, I know many men who carry a Swiss Army knife for a host of different reasons. I in fact have carried one myself for many years. It has, apart from the obligatory blade(s), a corkscrew, bottle opener, tin opener, screw driver and several other useful bits. I use it mainly for opening letters, cleaning my finger nails, sharpening pencils and only rarely to stab someone who upsets me.