Smoking gun

I think oily prick would be a better way to describe him, Missus.

Wow - just browsed this thread and find I'm famous :-) According to story it was medics not govt who've suggested ban on smoking - presumably in public places - and guess what I'm right behind it and would support it if it was govt policy- unless Missi threatened to give me a fat lip whereupon i'd be marching for FOREST - if any of you in cloud cuckoo ville really prefer Howard to Blair - well keep up the Blair Witch Hunt and you may get your wish - boy can't wait to see the whinfgeing on here then - mind you i think the British public has more sense than most of the 'Guardianistasgone alittlebitnutty' on here - so am confident 'Big Tone' will win again and prove himself the most successful Labour politician ever and confirm my view of him as the best PM since Attlee and probably the best PM since war-time churchill :_) prune juice any1?

*looks into crystal ball* I see a word. The word is berk...

:-) elf - so ru a troll or a twat?

Why I'm neaither...

I believe it was greasy haired Jock actually, which I think is fair enough. I am also at times a greasy haired Jock.

Thank you tony, I knew you'd understand...

We're turning into a bloody fascist state here...

idiot

No Lechar, Tony is right, twas I that used the 'greasy-haired jock' accolade. ELfy used the 'oily prick' alternative. I have never been unfortunate enough to see the state of his prick but take Elfy's word for it. I take issue with Mr Sedaka over the 'best chancellor' label though. How does one decide on who or what is a good chancellor? By the amount of deficit the country accrues under their chancellorship? By the amount of surplus in the old lady? It would be the easiest thing in the world to reduce national debt, you just raise taxes as high as sustainable and spend nothing. That would look good in the ledger but the country would be reduced to civil war. The really clever chancellor is the one that keeps taxes at an acceptable level whilst funding everything the taxpayer wants. When he is born they will no doubt hail him as Jesus Christ. Brown displays all the attributes of the achetypal (and probably unfair) tight-fisted Scotsman.

No Rachel - missi is on the greasy haired jock bit - that is possibly factually correct - so wont comment on that - plus am scared of Missi- Elf your devastating political critique has rendered me unable to respond

Elf your devastating political critique has rendered me unable to respond HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA

oooooh god thats funny..... lordie lord.... oooooh the irony....

LOL *let the bun fight commense*

Liana - prat missi - an unprecendented run of economic growth is GB's main credential - as someone who suffered two spellss of redundancy under tories - who was forced to lose theonly house he'd ever earned through a combination of unemployment, negative equity and sky high interest rates GBs financial prudence giving us record living standards, amount of jobs in economy low inflation sustainable interest rates and a steadily expanding economy are some of the acheivements that GB + TB and others take credit for - of course most of preceding will be mumbo - jumbo wto the 'GagaGuardianistas' on here - who unlike me know little of economics :_) prune juice any1 :-)

Tony, This is slightly unrelated issue but I'm a bit concerned about the idea that we shouldn't complain about the Blair government because Michael Howard would be worse. This is not logical. If there was a situation where an innocent bloke was due to get executed and one side wanted him stoned and the other side wanted to kill him by lethal injection, would you be campaigning for lethal injection on the grounds that it's less brutal than stoning? I hope not. I understand and respect you're position that, on balance, a Blair government is a good thing but I don't accept that those who believe that it's more bad than good should stop saying so on the grounds that things could be worse.

Apologies for mis-attributing the quote Miss Pi Pissi. I do not feel that Prudence is the best Chancellor this country has ever seen. New Labour monetary policy seems horribly confused. We are at once seeing huge levels of growth but personal debt spiralling out of control (I'm not going to get into Top Up Fees here but this is one example) While these are not directly related one encourages the other. On the other hand, Brown I think, functions adequately as a balance for President Blair.

David - as you know I respect your views and you're one of the few (regulars) on here capable of having a rational debate - By all means attack Blair if you wish - but if you remember it was the internal back biting that ruined Labour pre-Kinnock and led to the lucidrous position of Foot being preferred to Healey as Labour Leader - this led of course to Labour in the wilderness - (BTW Michael was a nice bloke- just unelectable) - and exactly to the type of Ga gA guardianistas running the Labour party while thatcher stamped her high heels into my and many other faces- unless I'm mistaken - it will be blair or howard at next election - so the more damage that's done to blair will surely help howard- of course criticise where justified - like almost all on here thought blair was wrong to go to war v Iraq - if the more extreme top up scenarios are proved correct then hes wrong there too - but the idiot name calling and slagging off this govt gets right on my nerv- and if Howard does get in - listen to the whingeing then - cept maybe from those like tan who as anarchists may prefer the ugly confrontations and economic problems that Howard will provide (probsably)

tony dee your political nous is staggeringly inept... its what i would expect from my seven year old - black / white/ right / wrong... oh and "who she likes best 'cos they have the nicest face/ the best trousers"

Liana - :-)

Of course one might say Tony that only by criticising our leaders when they choose to lurch after words of approval from the Daily Mail will they think that they might actually be doing something wrong. I happen to think that Gordon Brown has not been a bad chancellor, but objectively the day that British workers start working for themselves and not the Government has been pushed further and further down the calendar; and as for the economy being flourishing, well in a global economy we are pretty much surfing in America's wake and he's been lucky. Now, like Napoleon and Erikkson, I would agree that luck in a Chancellor is no bad thing and he has avoided some horrendous errors made by Tory Chancellors. But as others have pointed out, our economy is built on sand and people borrowing way beyond their means. In economic terms, this is usually called the South Sea Bubble effect and when it pops, everyone gets a soaking. If interest rates go up a couple of points, the repossessions will be back, because nobody has any slack these days. I think the widespread disappointment in Labour is generally from their own natural supporters that when you elect a supposedly socially inclusive party you don't expect them to start dishing out kickings to the most vulnerable people in society. Labour were elected with a pretty powerful majority but do not seem to have done a great deal with it. Nine years on and we're still huffing about fox-hunting and reform of the House of Lords, we're making the NHS more about internal markets than ever, the ethos is still 'private sector good, public sector bad' and with the exception of minimum wage and some damn good tax credits for the poor, they don't seem to have done a lot of positive things. Now, it seems to me that as Labour had been complaining for years about how dreadful the Tories were, that when they got into power there would be an awful lot more to put right than that.

Hi Andrew :-) another sensible contribution - all from men- mere coincidence? (hi Liana :-) Lucky Brown - maybe to some extent - but six years of consecutive growth goes way beyond luck - it's called sound judgement - Remember what the Tories did wiv North Sea Oil? Unlike many on here I actually know something about economics- I taught it at A level - and ask you to consider this sand/south Sea bubble metaphor- according to the Bank of England average UK household debt is summat like £7,000 (6,900)- well if you consider that average assets must be at least £20,000 taking into account cash, equity (remeber Tory neq equity!) in houses and othe assets which we'd need to discuss at length to agree on - then the debt is easily covered and many/most business would be happy with that assets/liabilities ratio (realise may be getting technical for some out there :-) the main reson labour were elected with a large majority was people trusted Blair brown new labour- unlike the sort of unelectables that i suspect the GagaGuardianistas tend to prefer on here where are these kickings to vulnerable members - most people are better off under new labour - and families have been helped tremendously - i resent this to some extent as a single man on a low london income who pays disproportionate tax - but i accept it is socially good on the whole the NHS needs one hell of a shake up and I'm all for more stringent competition in it so we get something like value for money for mine and others taxes- personally I'd go a lot further down the privatisation and patient pays something route anyway thatz enuff for now - good to tal to someone sensible :-0)

Yes, £7,000 to £20,000 does cover the acid test for businesses. I tend to think that those figures underestimate the debt that people actually have; and realistically I think a more accurate figure would be to include mortgage as a debt and then add it back into the value of the house as an asset. That would make on a house of £100,000 and an 80k mortgage debt 87,000, assets 100,000 which doesn't look nearly so rosy. I can't think of anyone more electable than Blair and Brown, which just makes me sad to think that new labour are such slaves to the press. They still, despite nine years in and all sorts of scandal, are in a position of almost unprecedented parliamentary and popular strength that they could start to do good things. Not wacky hard-left stuff, but I don't want and never will, a labour Home Secretary who boasts about how tough he is and how "If you thought Michael Howard was right wing, you wait till you see me". The 'tough on the causes of crime' seems to have got forgotten. Even during the Kinnock years, there was always a sniff that the opposition might win an election. The next election is only really about how low the turnout is, the winner is a foregone conclusion. Now, if the Tories get kicked into a dismal third place, then the election after that might actually be interesting. The truth of the matter is, as I think new labour have found out, that it is extremely hard for governments to genuinely affect the quality of schools and medical care because turning things round takes years and the temptation is to keep making little course corrections that actually slow down progress because we have to be seen to be doing something. All that a government can really do is be a safe pair of hands on the economy, which Brown pretty much is. But, if you start yelling loudly when you get elected about how things can only get better and you ask people to pay a bit more tax they expect to see some improvements. I thought the Queen's Speech this year was scandalously reactionary, knee-jerk and unsavoury.

boiiiing fair point boiiiiiing i have to agree boiiiiiiing im wrong again boiiiiing

Got a light L ?

*sneaks behind the bike shed with hox...*

yeah.. got a stick of dynamite Hox?

More worried about the possible ban on burgers and coke - I am well aware that they are not good for you eaten every day; but as an adult I think that if I've had a crappy day, I ought to be able to eat junk food, or smoke or drink if I want. I also think that if I am not stealing money or mugging people to fund any other activity that the government ought to butt out of that as well - it is my body to abuse, not the governments. And to be honest, from a greedy tax-payer point of view, the more unhealthy people are, the quicker they die and get themselves off the state pension. Stop giving smokers a kicking and start giving them OBEs. They fund the NHS and die quickly to reduce the burden on the state. Smokers are heroes! Is that the most totalitarian and right-wing Queen's Speech we've ever had? You know you're in trouble when Michael Howard positions himself to the left of a Labour Government.

I think if the government bans smoking in public places I will take up smoking in protest. I wish governments in general would spend less time and money telling consenting adults what they can and can't do and more time sorting out things like schools and hospitals and railways. Is that really too much to ask? I say that to my friends in Young Labour and they call me a Trotskyist.

No it bloody isnt too much to ask. I am sick to death of being told what is good for me, what i should do and when I should do it, what to eat, what not to eat, how much to drink and what time is appropriate to do it. Soon we will have to apply for a license to breathe in this country.

and no, before anyone bounces on grinning moronically, I wouldnt rather do it in afghanistan.

head, hear! Liana for PM! :-)

Does nobody have the revolutionary instinct? Howard and Blair are simply tweedledum and tweedledee. Law-making in this country is like a game of musical chairs in which no-one wants to sit down. I'm thoroughly bored with debating which party leaves the most money in my pocket. I'm for overthrowing the lot, and putting something in it's place that will solve this country's pressing social and economic problems on a more permanent basis.

No? Oh well, t'was worth a shot...

Im afraid i am low on diplomacy elf... but thank you. however, should PM stand for post mortem, i can think of a few i wouldnt mind performing.

booooooooooooooooooing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *grins*

Come on Fishy, he's not on this thread yet, you're just getting carried away on the euphoria of top-up fees.

my space hopper is for hire.

They're out to get you Tony!

Soon I shall be proudly wearing this slogan on my chest, or I might give it to my brother for Xmas, havent decided yet. [%sig%]