Big Ron

Yeah, what a good kicking feels like! Seriously, Peter Reid: great player (as you'd expect an Evertonian to say) and justififably kept Hodd the "God" out of the Mexican World Cup. Varied success as a manager. ABYSMAL pundit, he's so awkward with his cringey all-lads-together-avin-a-laugh unfunniness -- ol' monkey heed. Oh God, you had Phil Neal, didn't you. The only man to come out of the Graham Taylor documentary worse than Graham Taylor. A man most famous for repeating - in a mumbly voice - every crap decision uttered by the worst England manager ever.

I was being a little bit provocative, Rose. I have some very dear French friends and the Germans I've met have been ok in the main, (apart from those nazi types in the same hotel as me in Marbella back in '69), though they tend to be complete humourless. It's the national identity I have trouble with. The French come across as selfish, not very hygenic and definitely anti-British. The Germans come across as arrogant bullies.

I was offered 'An audience with Big Ron' at the Bloomsbury recently. I declined of course, on the basis of his stupid tan.

Orange-a-tan.

Indeed. He promised to bring his chalkboard along and everything.

and, as more holes are dug in the name of politics, yet others are filled in. Black is a name of a colour, just like blue or orange, therefore to call someone coloured is really pointless even on a technical level as everyone is at least one colour and many are several. Black is ALSO the word used to describe black people, it's the word that black people are happy to be labelled with and it's just as honourable as any other. Just because they're not actually the colour black doesn't mean they can't be called black people and, by the same token, just because the colour black has been given negative connotations (bad people in westerns, depression etc) has no bearing on BLACK people, it's just the word taken from a reference and now given to a bunch of people... black people. As for the word Nigger, well it's like I've always maintained. It has become a term of affection used by those against whom it was originally an insult. It's a token of solidarity amongst certain groups of the black community and it doesn't mean that all black people have to like it. The reason that white people can't use it is obvious- we're not part of the group and so, just as if your best friend walked in and said to you, "how are you, you old bastard?" you would see it as a term of affection but if a stranger called you a bastard you'd punch them. When big Ron used the word it was derogatory, clear as that, whether Snoop Dog uses the same word is neither here nor there, they're different people from different cultures and an insult is an insult no matter how it's phrased.

"This polarisation of language for political ends worries me...I mean, if you can infer that Ron is a racist in the first degree on the basis of his comment, where does it end ?" I don't think this is the point. As Missi rightly says, all of us are racist to some extent. The capacity to be racist or to discriminate unfairly against someone on any other basis is part of being human. I certainly don't think that Big Ron is part of the less than 1% of our population who, through groups like the BNP, actively engage in racism as a hobby. So on that level he isn't 'a racist'. But I don't think this about 'polarisation of language for political ends'. If the 'political ends' are that it should be unacceptable for public figures to make gratuitously offensive comments about people based on the colour of their skin, those I suppose those are 'political ends' but most people I know - supporters of all mainstream political parties and many more people who have no strong interest in politics at all - would agree with them. This is not the same thing as 'mixed-race coffee' and 'baa baa green sheep' and to suggest that it is, is extremely misleading.

Personally I don't blame them. His comments make it seem that Yorke should accept being called a n****r because Atkinson gave him a job. The T&T FA are idiots for offering the job to him in the first place. I wonder how long it will be before Stan Collymore receives another job offer.

Odd isn't that it's ok for coloured folk to call each other niggers?

Missi, it isn't Rappers have done it for effect & I certainly don't allow my kids to use the word. I think it's an insult to people who put up with stupid racist comments and fought against racism to hve this generation now making it seem acceptable I'd slap anyone who called me a nigger whether they were black or white

You'd slap anyone who called you gorgeous Belle!!!

I'd definitely slap you

What if they called you Trigger?

The distinction is, the word used amongst (usually) more-deprived black communities -- and continues to be used by ex-dwellers who "made it" in rap or whatever; and, of course, the wannabes, or wannawases -- is commonly spelt "nigga" (plural: "niggaz")...a reclaiming and subtle repackaging job which has its supporters and detractors amongst the American/English blacks. In some circles, a black person might refer to a white person as "nigga", to mean either "mate", "asshole", or simply "person", so generic a term it has become. But of course, Big Ron meant it in a purely derogatory sense as Ely says. I, as a white man, do not view the word "white" as too harsh, even though I'm more of a pinky colour. "Honky" is, as it compares me to a pig. Blacks like the word black, and on the whole don't like "coloureds" or "niggers". More interesting is Missi's delve into our psyche: my English teacher once opined that the mistrust of black people in the UK (this was in the eighties) stems from our fear of the night, a blackness, when crime and misdeeds are hidden by a lack of visibility. Maybe this is partly why the word black has some negative connotations (black cowboy hats, the word "blackmail", black sheep of the family etc) but I'm not sold by his argument entirely. Still, he reckoned this explained why the English Chinese community were more popular than the English Afro-Caribbeans. Either way, it's not a reason to worry about use of the word "black". Especially when black people are comfortable with it.

to take the point further there's always been this sense of discrimination about refering to black people by their colour. The argument being that if you were looking for someone and asked a passer by had they seen them you would probably say "I'm looking for a friend of mine, he's a black guy, about five ten... etc" whereas you would never describe someone as being white when offering a general description. This is seen as racist or discriminatory that black people are described by their colour but whites aren't. It's more of a case of noting the differences to most other people in the same area and, therefore, I would expect to be described as that white guy if I were living in a predominantly black area as it would be something that would make me stand out. I used to be described as "that English guy" when living in Spain as it was something that was recognized in me, regardless of my attempts at the spanish accents, it wasn't negative or discriminatory just easy as a way to help people identify that it was me they were talking about. If someone was in a wheel chair, or particularly tall, or had very long hair or a facial tattoo it'd be the first thing mentioned when they were described (if thay had all of the above they'd never be lost int he first place!) and if a person is black amongst a mainly white population then it becomes a method of description, not discrimination.

i'd nail em to the nearest tree

"Seems to me he was crucified on the flimsy wooden cross of political corectness." I'm not sure what 'political correctness' in this context means. I used to work for an inner London local authority and there was a culture where, in some meetings, it was necessary to talk in an incomprehensible technical code language to avoid allegedly offending particular groups of people - whether on the grounds of race, sexuality, age, disability, nut allergy etc. This did distract from the fact that some people couldn't do their jobs but didn't make any positive difference to the lives of the people who were allegedly being protected from trauma by the fact that council workers were forced to talk about them in gobbledygook. That's obviously a bad thing but it's completely different from Big Ron and his idiotic use of gratuitously offensive language.

Who said romance is dead?

u did

Ah well Rose, I was paraphrasing what I'd read in several magazines, admittedly by the 'rapper' variety of coloured people. I wouldn't personally use the term, in fact it mostly doesn't occur to me what colour, creed or nationality I'm conversing with, unless their attitude forces it into my face. To me people are people and there's arseholes everywhere.

Coloured. A very tricky and bad term George. I know you dont mean it, but black people hate being called coloured.

I prefer to be called black, but hate is a strong word

I should just reitterate that my points above are meant to show that Ron WAS being racist and not excusing him, I just wanted to make the wider point too about people and their use of language. the fact is that it was NOT ok for Ron to use the words he did as they could ONLY have been meant as an insult and a race-based one at that. Case closed.

I didn't use the word in a derogatory sense and initially thought it might be preferable to 'black' which to me seems a very harsh word. You see I don't really think about the terms much because I don't really think about colour much in relation to people. I would far sooner refer to Rose as Rose, I don't give a shit what colour she is. There was no offence intended anyway.

How about the word....'person' Or, even use their name.

Of course there wasn't George, I know that. It just seems such a 70's term. I was having a go at the term and not you my dear fella.

As a Villa shareholder I met Big Ron a number of times when he was our manager. Old school, yes; racist, no. Ron did more than most to promote the cause of black players in English football and my abiding memory is of him singing "My Way" at the League Cup winning dinner in 96 with Yorke and Palmer on backing vocals. Seems to me he was crucified on the flimsy wooden cross of political corectness. A rebuke and a formal apology would have been more in order. Now, if it had been that prize chump Turnip Graham Taylor...

If Ron was a racist, why was the Villa team made up of so many black players when he was manager ? Why did he have such a good rapport with black players ? I've seen him on a Saturday night with any number of black players enjoying a post match drink. His comments were unwise and uncalled for. They reflect his generation, a generation that finds it difficult to engage with the concept of political correctness. When I greet Ernie Groat, Piddle's spoon-playing virtuoso, with the words 'How's things, short arse Ernie' it's meant (and taken) as a term of endearment, and not because I universally loathe short people.

I'm pretty sure if I'd called a kid at school a "lazy f**king nigger", I wouldn't get a second shot at teaching. But if I had said it (really, no chance) -- and it had made the papers -- I'd probably, for my own safety, give majority-black schools a wide berth. Reportedly, he did the same thing before, but only a few English holidaymakers abroad got to hear his politically incorrect rantings that time. It's now known that the man has used unacceptable racist language as a matter of course. I'd be surprised if Dwight was never referred to as the "n" word back in the day, but it's easier for him to make a stand now the man's been exposed and publicly hung, drawn and quartered. I doubt Ron is a practising racist; he's just very old school, and thinks (thought?) nothing of using such terms. As such, it's right he lost his TV job, and he probably shouldn't get another one. But he's allowed to learn his lesson, surely, and go into some sort of job which puts him in contact with black people. Trinidad and Tobago though, lol. Let's get Rodney Marsh at the helm in Sri Lanka as well, huh? By the way, he was a great pundit, but a shit manager...no great loss to T&T.

In her Mirror column yesterday, Sue Carroll listed the Big Ron story as one of various newspaper April Fools. It can't be, can it? In the article linked at the top, Ron is being quoted as having responded to the news. If it was an AF, it was a bloody good one!

Precisely Bob, but you wouldn't dream of saying it to a very short stranger because that level of familiarity wouldn't be there. What Ron said wasn't the same as walking up to an old black friend and saying "yo, wass 'appnin ma nigga?" he said it ABOUT a player that he didn't even know, not TO a player that was his friend. It was said as an insult and not a term of endearment and the fact that the word was used meant that it was based on race, it couldn't be based on anything else could it? He called him lazy, well that's an opinion, maybe he was being lazy but ANYONE can be called lazy and at least it's relevent to the sport, a lazy player is a bad player. To add Nigger to the end is a CONSCIOUS comment on his colour. plain and simple. It has nothing to do with football and is therefore a racist insult. I understand that many elder people use racist terms and don't really understand the problem as they're from an age gone by but they're not there anymore and they've just as much opportunity to know what's acceptable NOW as anybody else. to say that they always used to say these words is no excuse, or to say that someone's not a racist but just 'set in their ways' or 'old fashioned' is like saying.. "well in the old days, blacks weren't allowed in this bar, it's just force of habit to ban them today, not racism." don't get me wrong, I hate the PC brigade as much as the next reasonable minded guy...girl...hermaphrodite, and usually it goes too far but this is a simple case of racism and regardless of all the 'good work' that Big Ron may have done for the cause of black players he was really only using their skills. I doubt he'd have signed anyone black if they were crap at football just to see more black faces in the game. I'm not even suggesting that he DISLIKES black people but his attitude is obviously one that will revert to race when in need of an insult and that says a lot.

If God really wanted Foozball and Rapper's in the world, he'd of invented much rounder cows and phonological dwarf's...ooopppps, he did!

Ho,ho. [%sig%]

So on that level he isn't "a racist". Precisely...not a racist in the first degree. But the accompanying knee-jerk reaction - the ostracisation - was disproportionate to his crime. Big Ron was wrong to say what he did and deserved to be reprimanded. But by labelling him a racist rather than a foolish ex-footy manager who doesn't think before he opens his mouth automatically groups him with the NF/BNP and, I fear, belittles the concept of racism.

I take your point, ely. It's just this knee-jerk PC reaction that labels a person a racist on the basis of one mis-placed comment. It denigrates the concept of racism. I'm not condoning what Big Ron said, just trying to put it in perspective. A rebuke and an apology would have been sufficient. To crucify the guy puts him up there alongside the NF and all the other bona fide bigots of the world. This polarisation of language for political ends worries me...I mean, if you can infer that Ron is a racist in the first degree on the basis of his comment, where does it end ?

I don't think there was, broadly, a knee-jerk reaction. What happened was that he lost his job. I think most people, in most jobs would be fired for behaving in a similar way - certainly people who work for large organisations with a public profile. ITV is hardly well known for pushing a radical PC agenda, it took a commercial decision which I imagine was based on the likely reaction of its viewers to Ron's comments. I don't see anything wrong with that. "But by labelling him a racist rather than a foolish ex-footy manager who doesn't think before he opens his mouth automatically groups him with the NF/BNP and, I fear, belittles the concept of racism." I don't think there's a large body of people comparing Ron to Nick Griffin. If they are, they're wrong but it's equally wrong to suggest that the only concept of racism is that practised by the BNP/NF. Ron did commit a racist act which, if replicated on a large scale, would have serious, widespread consequences. If millions of ordinary people, who don't have political agendas of racism, decided it was socially acceptable to make gratuitous racist insults it would make society a much more unpleasant place for people of all races. It doesn't belittle the concept of racism to oppose racist acts by people who aren't racist political activitists, it would be far worse not to.

"Coloured" is actually a slave trade term, very much to be avoided I'd say -- it's the kind of thing I have to correct my Dad on all the time, but he never listens. He also seems to think it softens the blow to black people that they are black; or is slightly nervous about "black" being "a bit politically incorrect these days". Black is good word. And black people are almost unanimously proud to be so. The American "People of Colour" refers to all non-whites, blacks and Asians. Anyway, it further illustrates the point: old-school people don't usually mean any harm by the phrases they use. They are what they were brought up with.

No one suggested that he's a racist thug, but you don't call someone nigger if you don't have racist views. Looking at the context of his comments he didn't call Desailly who was one of the best defenders in the world "a useless, lazy thick nigger". How can that not be racist. If you saw someone in a wheelchair with one leg would you walk up to them and call them Long John Silver. If you saw a gay couple would you shout faggot or dyke? Rodney Marsh told a joke - an inappropriate and tasteless joke about the tsunami. He joked that David Beckham had turned down a move to Newcastle United because of trouble with the Toon Army in Asia and he was sacked. Marsh told the Press Association: "I apologise unreservedly for any offence I caused by my thoughtless and inappropriate comment I made last night. "My intention was to make a light-hearted football joke." "These remarks should never have been made and Sky would like to offer its apologies to those who were offended." "I entirely respect Sky Sports' position and would add my apology to everyone concerned at Sky. Ron Atkinson's reponse was that it was a slip of the tongue. So obviously he's used the word more than once - just not on air before

Bob -- if you use the language of the NF and the BNP, you must not be surprised if people count you amongst them. I too doubt Ron is a practising racist. (Then, hell, I don't know -- it seems I was conned by an April Fools gag, and I'll believe anything.) But if you make you're bed, you'll damn well have to lie in it like a beached, sovereign-ring wearing whale.

On the Rodney Marsh issue: why was he publicly humiliated by being made to apologise, when the intention was to sack the poor c**t anyway. Do one or the other.

I think an apology was enough - but then again I don't know anyone who died in the tsunami. The victim's families may feel differently

The thing about the 'black' word is rooted in the past as Paul says, but it became pretty pervasive throughout western culture, eg. the 'bad' guy in the cowboy movie always wore a black hat and rode a black horse, whereas the 'good' guy always rode either a white or golden palomino horse, and wore a white hat. Black is a very 'hard' and dense word, quite apart from the fact that I don't think I ever saw a negroid person that was actually 'black'. Most are either light or medium brown; a few are very dark, depending upon where they come from. I'm very happy to use whichever word is acceptable to those concerned.

I think we're all 'racist' to some extent. 'I' can't take to the French or Germans in general, but it isn't seen as racism, just ignorance. Oh well.

To be honest, I think he is just ignorant. I didn't see the doc "What Ron Said", but I was told that he seemed completely oblivious to the fact that black people don't like being called niggers. The fact that he used the term lazy as well shows he's a prat. But tbh, my favourite Snoop song Drop it Like it's Hot contains the word nigga but I still listen to it. Coloured I don't like, but I understand that people associate black with bad and feel uneasy using it. As George says, just use people's names because the colour is unimportant

it doesn't unless it's understood. The Ron's of this world are all smiles on the outside but speak out of the side of their mouths to their mates on the golf course when they want to say how they really feel. That microphone mistake of his was just us getting an insight to his real thoughts. It's like Bush standing on a podium and spouting on about liberal issues and saying whatever gets him elected but you just know that his actual beliefs will only be aired when he's amongst his clan at some reception and the microphones are switched off. Teaching people what to say in public aint the deal here, it's about those people not wanting to say anything else. It's about their actual feelings towards black people changing and when they have, then lazy niggers cease to exist.

Ely - you don't know what Ron's true beliefs are. And tell me, how are you going to stop people being racist in their privacy of their own homes ? Send out the Thought Police ? Re-education camps ? Exterminate everyone over the age of 55 who wears a Pringle sweater and golf slacks ? The Missi-Man is right: we're all guilty of racism to some degree - non-whites included. Sad but true. A few weeks ago two friends of mine - white bloke and Jamaican wife - had their car vandalised by NF thugs. Was it Big Ron's comment that sent them out onto the street with their baseball bats ? I doubt it. Lets ostracise those people instead, not an ageing ex-footy manager who deserved a slap on the wrist rather than a public hanging.

I agree he was a shit manager and an occasionally amusing pundit. I guess there was a bit of me that wondered what would had happend if he was allowed to do the T&T job. I'm guessing that Ron has now had his wake up call to the modern world and however old school he is, he must now realise that he can't express views of that nature. If he was allowed to do this job, working pretty much exclusively with black players and staff and assuming he has some capacity for self analysis (okay, getting shaky now), perhaps, only perhaps, he might learn that not only are the words he uttered offensive, but that they have no basis in fact. Perhaps he might have learnt a lesson, apart from make sure the microphones off. Then again..

The original story wasn't a complete April Fool, as the T&T football authorities admitted that Atkinson was on a shortlist of names for the position, but was never offered the job. I think perhaps the Mirror just took that snippet of info and embellished to their hearts content.

Bob, just because Atkinson used black players it doesn't mean he's not racist and if we accept racist comments with "ah, good old Ron, he's a card" NF thugs will think they can get away with anything. When I think about the West Brom team with Lawrie Cunningham, Remi Moses, Brendan Batson and Cyrille Regis to me it beggars belief that he could ever think in those terms let alone voice them. BUT and it was a big but, I think PC thugs should be hung for their crimes. I work for Local Government and it is ridiculous that you can't say blackboard/black coffee or sing baa baa black sheep. It is utter and shameless crap and detracts from the real problem I think Ely has made some brilliant points. But Missi, do you not like French and Germans or just their character?

Perhaps it was an act of contrition that he applied for the job, maybe he HAS learned a lesson, (make sure no one hears you when you speak your mind). Perhaps the west indians should have given him a chance.