Mummy you were never there.

We all have our own weakness and find it dificult to understand other peoples (unless we share their weakness too). I'm going through an ice-cream phase at the moment but I use them as treats for days when I think I've done enough to deserve one - or, occasionally, because I need something to brighten my day. I'm sure I could easily learn to love jam doughnuts too ;o)

yeh, you think you're doing right and all but if truth be told, I probably prolonged the poor birds agony. If my dog had eaten it then it wouldn't have spent it's last week in a conifer and ended up in my wheelie bin. My dog would have shit it out and then...nah...it still would have ended up in my wheelie bin..um...so either way it would have ended up in my wheelie bin either as a dead bird or a dog shit. Can't get my head around it. Maybe I did do right afterall. Not worth dwelling on.

sorry, wrong thread.

You get morning sickness as well?

I don't think any parent should regret how they brought up their children. We can all look back and see mistakes. It is how your kids turn out in the end that's important though, isn't it?

Only if I eat a few litres of ice-cream for breakfast. Actually, I make it a rule not to eat until after mid-day and my first meal is usually after 4pm but then I might snack at mid-night or later...

So we hope, stormy! :-)

Odd you mention photos anyway, because someone close to me, and who has seen yours reckons you look like, and I quote, 'ten toads in a sock'.

Must wear big socks and be almost blind then...

Come to think of it - what kind of person knows what 10 toads in a sock looks like... someone close to you... does he have horns and cloven hooves by any chance?

oh give over you pair of nobs

I think they fancy each other.

:o)

Well if these forums weren't so fucking boring I wouldn't have to resort to prodding the twat.

Then think of something scintillatingly witty to discuss, Missi, like only you can. ;-)

What would be the point? He'd only come clip-clopping along like the donkey he is, and scatter the thread with rubbish about either Tony Blair, Iraq, Jesus fucking Christ, his googled knowledge of all things scientific, or what a handsome stud he is. And if HE doesn't bore the thread to a standstill, that useless turd in Oz will. Failing all else, the silly kids will spend all day talking childish rubbish to each other. All in all, it might be better to take a leaf out of Andrew's book and find somewhere else to go.

We make choices at points in our lives which are, at the time, considered the correct choices given the cirumstances. We can't forsee the results of our choices so we should have no regrets.

I only get to be on here for about 10 mins...but... fish...I am sure you were a wonderful mum...the idea of a mum who does everything right and makes their kids perfect and their kids' childhood perfect does not exist... honest. You have done/do your best, and that is the best anyone can do. I had an idyllic childhood up until the age of 5...my mum was superhuman. She taught me to read before I was 3 and we spent every last minute of every day together. She was my hero. And poor her, she set herself up for a fall, because nobody can keep that up their whole lives. I was in shock when I went to school because I'd been this little kid who got cuddled all day and mummy wanted to hear everything I said and make biscuits with me and ice them in blue icing, and play hide and seek in the long grass next to our mobile home (yep we were hippies) and ride bare back on the horse in the field next door. School was horrorfying in comparison, as were other kids, who I just had no idea how to communicate with. I still have the problem sometimes now... I would much rather be off in a book, or baking, or bloody making sticky collages out of old magazines, than in a hectic social situation. Long winded way of saying... that worked in my favour and against... no parent can be perfect. My neice goes to nursery 4 days a week and has done since she was 1. She is now 3. She is a socialable little girl, who has lots of friends and knows loads of songs. She helps my sister with the housework, and has a boyfriend. She doesn't cry at the thought of my sister doing other things, whereas I was so attached to my mum I never wanted her to talk to any one else, let alone leave me with other people... Fish, considering how great you are, don't feel bad. Your kids will appreciate the things you have done for them, not the things you haven't...

I don't believe there is a point in time in the future where anyone "turns out" to be anything. I think that each day is precious and how each day turns out and what we learn from each day is entirely our own to determine. I can't see any point in time in the future for my daughter to make any effort to race to that is any better than the point in time she enjoys right now. Off course, there are points in time such as educational points which are determined by the state but it doesn't go to say that our education ends right there. A day 20 years from now is no different than today. I suppose we all want our children to "turn out" to be intelligent, well mannered, mature, responsible, etc. But I believe that so many people spend their time looking on to this imaginary 'point' in time for our kids when in fact they are having their greatest, happiest days right now. I know my wife would disagree because she normally sets her sights well into the future. She say things like "When she's 18." "When she's married." When this and when that and I suppose there's a good balance in that respect.

she might not get married because she might be a lesbian and/or she might not want to get married? Unless she's a lesbian, does want to get married and does so at that point in time. She might be a bloke by the time she's 25.

I used to be guilty of that particular futurism. Motherhood was so difficult at first that I couldn't wait, in some ways, for it to be 'finished', eg. the kids had grown up and left home, leaving me in peace (actually, I wanted to disappear into deepest Africa, never to be seen again!). I've since recovered and thoroughly enjoy even the challenging moments now. They really are only small once, and they're just too funny to watch as they navigate the tricky currents of childhood. Every time they very casually say, "Mum, I love you. You're a good mum", it breaks my heart: looking to the future I missed so much of their present. I don't feel I deserve them, sometimes...

wouldn't it be great just to be well balanced about it? intellectually i KNOW that what you are saying AG and ferg ... is true ... but the deep down feelings ... the grief ... are inescapable ... very self cherishing i don't doubt it ... but when you cut to the chase ... under the layers of sophistication and intellect in us all ... deep down we do just cry i think ... we all have our enduring sadnesses don't we? ... they are the things that make us turn to whatever our vices are ... drinking, eating ... chasing rubbish relationships .. whatever ... thank you for the kindness tho ...

I reiterate that people should be made to take psychological assessments -before- having children. If the kids are always left with the nanny/daycare/childminder/etc., what's the point of having them, except to fulfil some sort of unspoken societal dictate that, in order to be acceptable, one must make children? Sheesh. Just drop the kid off with me; I won't bother giving him back.

I agree. Fair enough, they're entitled to a break from the kids. Let's face it, if we didn't enjoy those precious moments of serenity, we'd go mad! But this poor little lad is a trophy babe - in the extreme. He has all the toys that money can buy but I never seen a kid get as big a giggle out of a toy than they do when they're fooling around with mum and dad. They may aswell just leave him at home where he's happy - with his grandad.

Have you pointed this out to your friends? Seems someone ought to.

I am amazed that you agree re psychological assessments for persons pre breeding Maxwell. I know that having suffered from a 'mental illness' my breeding status might have been deemed dubious, but I'm a damned good parent - better than many with an impeccable sanity record. Where would it end?

I should reiterate too. I don't agree to potential parents taking pyschological assessments but I agree to AG's comment regards social conformity. Either that or he was a mistake and they're now trying to 'put up with it." I dunno. oh no - bugger that! Pyshcological assessments. Shame on you, AG. :)

Quite right Liana. But I was always a bit scared I would pass on my BPD or whateevr it is to any offspring. I think I'd make an excellent parent but it would be a big decision. I think a mental health issue doesn't make you an unfit parent but you need to decide whether the gift of life is worth the risk. I know sometimes I wouldn't wish my mind on anyone not even an enemy - other times I love being alive and in the light it seems worth it!

ha... i agree that some people should perhaps consider why they actually want to have kids though. Mind you, some of the most contented and joyous parents are the parents of kids who were happy accidents - one of my close relatives is such a child, and is cosseted and adored beyond belief. How long is the holiday for? I mean, if they work all the hours god sends, then perhas they really do need to be relaxing as oppoed to zooming round theme parks or something... if its a three week hol and the child is booked into daycare for 9 days, then thats not so bad, but if its a 9 day hol, then yeah, thats a bit rough. I know I couldnt manage really without my long weekends without my girls, but my situation is a bit different from the parents you describe above, in that I am with them constantly (out of school hours and at weekends/hols) and feel that they are entitled from a break from me as much as I am from them... when I was little my mum and dad left my gran and grandad to raise me for significant lengths of time as they motored round europe having a laugh and an adventure. I loved stayting with my grandparents, and loved seeing them when they returned... a happy stable base is what kids need basically.

Yes Jude - as you know I was diagnosed with the same... i think my kids love my intermittent looniness actually. No signs in any of them as yet... you could however, view it that if a child of yours did have bpd, then they are with the best possible person to help with it. You wouldnt get me (and I'm willing to be you as well) sending any of mine off to a quack to get loaded with drugs or ravaging through an nirrelevant past for a start - so having a parent with an issue like that can be a bonus. She says, justifying wildly.

I'm willing to bet you, not I'm willing to BE you. Typo's, tsk. That nun outfit would NEVER suit me, it'd burst into flames as soon as I put it on. I couldnt *possibly* be you.

poor kid, he's only two, and gonna be in a strange nursery, in a strange country with strange people he doesn't know, think it would have been better if they just left him with grandad, at least he'd be with someone he knows, at two years old I doubt going to spain is a big deal. I don't think there should be tests about having kids, that seems a bit extreme to me. Marley, my son, was a complete accident. He wasn't planned and me and fey had a moral dilemna about whether we should keep him, but when we saw him on the scan, there was no doubt we had to have him. Sometimes having a kid isn't something you plan. It happens by accident, you can't get people in that situation to take psychometric tests, cause they will obviously be in a confused and unsure state anyway - and I know loads of people whose babies were accidents who turned out to be good parents. But I do feel for the kid Maxwell was going on about. I hate people who put their careers first and forget about those around them. Mummy should get a different fucking job, so she can be there for the poor kid. And daddy should stop being such a pussy and look after him when mummy isn't there - it will do both of them good. Kids need to feel like their parents love them. You can send them this post if you like maxwell discreetly by email or something, I don't care. Poor wee thing.

Awright, awright, you win. In my defence, I meant psychological assessments as to -why- one wants to become a parent, not whether one is 'sane' or not. I would most certainly have failed that particular assessment miserably at times in the past, even when I was already a parent, so I would be knocking myself out of my own loop! There has to be more to the desire to being a parent than just "that's what we're supposed to do", or the biological urge, or continuing one's lineage. I mean, if you want to get a wee doggie from Wood Green Animal Shelter, the doggie police come out and inspect your premises, roast you over the coals as to what kind of doggie owner you'll be, whether you'll be able to provide a happy and nurturing home for Doggie, etc. Why on earth don't we do this for children, who are far more important? Half the world's ills would be solved if people were somehow forced to assess parental responsibilities -prior- to breeding. (Again, I might be taking myself out of the running, but I don't think so. I kill myself worrying about how well I'm bringing my kids up...) Yes, yes, accidents do happen, but there should be some sense of responsibility from the people involved as to what kind of upbringing they're able to provide. Money and successful jobs are only a small part (if any part) of childrearing.

i met a woman yesterday who used to live on 20 espressos and 8 paracetamols a day ... she was in career competition with her high earning husband and also trying to do the best for her two little kids ... her son of 5 has been so bad with exczema that his skin bleeds and he wakes 5 times a night ... this woman told me she has, in the last month, given up work and in her own words "had time to look after him properly" ... she has taken him to the homeopath and has time to shop properly and feed him and all the family, healthy food - not convenience food ... the child's skin has cleared up completely and he has slept (and therefore the mother has slept) for the first time in 5 years ... the woman looks ten years younger ... she's seen the homeopath herself who told her she's been living on adrenalin ... she was telling me all this in amazement ... it seems simple to me ... why don't people get it?

All kinds of people in all kinds of situations have children and make a go of it. And the reverse. I wonder why many people have children. It does seem to be a programmed response, or part of a search for fulfillment. I briefly knew a single woman who had decided to have a child, completely on her own and unsupported. I met her when the baby was just over one year old. At this time the child had been badly sunburned and was turned away from daycare because her skin still had open sores. Her mother had to return to work, she had used up all her days off caring for the child. She was forced to leave the child with a friend of mine, who happened to be the wife of a work mate of the mother. The child had never met these people before. I was visiting when she was dropped off. This little one had been in day care since she was six weeks old. She was over a year old and still not eating solid food. When her mother was leaving the child turned toward her and looked as though she would cry. Then, in one horrifying moment, a blank look crossed the child's face and she turned away from her mother. One year old and already learning to detach from her emotions. When I saw that look on her face it was so upsetting, I couldn't stop thinking about it for a long time. I fear for these children. How will they ever know how to love and be loved?

That'd well and truly fuck it up for me, missi, cos i only stick around to get on your nerves ;)

some people start parenthood happily married, with the work/parenting balance benefitting all concerned then,through no fault of their own, end up as single parents with financial stress and have to upset that balance in order to provide for the children. I do agree though that precious time with your kids,be it evenings,holidays or weekends,is worth a thousand promotions and material gain. I like to think most people do their best,even if they get it wrong occasionally. Lets not forget those who seem to spend every moment as housewives/mothers when in fact junior is dumped in front of the t.v/video game most of the day. I believe a healthy balance of nursery, family babysitters and one to one with mum/dad gives the child social skills and the ability to interact with different types of people. [%sig%]

Ok, I'll stay, I don't wanna be the cause of your depression.

good on ya ;)

Steal all the eggs at birth, then only let em breed when they licensed properly (Mens and Womens btw)! Ever seen the little buggers drive a car....errggghhh...scary stuff! But then they look after the damn things far better than their kids! FACT: humans spend more on their stupid PETS and Pleasure activities, than they do on children....nice one, Parent scum! Lianna and her goat, excluded of course!

funny, MY stupid pets dont wear designer clothes, play ps2's or go on holiday with me, they don't ask for the latest expensive track suites or go through trainers like a dose of salts and my pleasure activities cost nowhere near as much as my children do so i'm afraid you're wrong there mr.jasper(though i suspect you only typed that drivel to wind people up anyway)have you possibly got a few unaddressed issues with your upbringing?

Something I keep with me each day: On your death bed, the last thing you'll wish you'd done is spent more time at the office. And I think that's something that everyone should carry in their minds each day because there are so many people living so fast these days, placing their priorities with 'things' that will add to nothing in hindsight. 30 years down the line, all they'll have is an engraved carriage clock on the mantlepiece, (if it's tasteful enough) a pension and alot of wasted years. Maybe.

That is such a sad case, Maxwell. I find it very difficult to step into the shoes of anyone who would be able to have real quality, relaxing time whilst knowing that they had placed their child in alien childcare for 9 days in order to achieve it. It seems obvious to me that huge lifestyle changes are necessary for such people to not have to take such steps to find the rest they need. It sounds like it's all about what suits them, what fits round them. I wouldn't mind betting that the kid has a slightly unusual name too? I find that people who have kids to suit their own lifestyle image often give their kids rare names...the agenda is all about them and the kid is just a projection of their own inner workings. I agree that there are plenty who are at home with kids but who are equally neglected though - left to roam streets 'till all hours, told to play out till they are allowed back in etc. And I, like Liana, have lived in places where tiny children are doing this. Whether they are working or not such parents still have their own needs as paramount in their minds, or a complete lack of sense of responsibility - some people seriously believe that even very young children should be left to fight their own battles in a kind of dog eat dog situation - it's ok until one of their own gets victimised or hurt, but while their kids are ruling the roost its great - little Johnny is learning to fight his corner and toughen up regardless of who he hurts in the mean time. It's each man for himself. I do agree with Walter that a variety of good childcare is healthy - I was the most happy with childcare that was 'in the open' so to speak - nursery daycare with lots of staff and a good mix of kids from different backgrounds - that has to be the best preparation for real life. The story of the baby with the blank expression is also very sad. 'A Child of Our Time' looked at something about that - children who displayed a little distress when a parent left the room were deemed to have a healthy sense of attachment/belonging/love. Some kids are shell shocked by neglect and I agree that such children will have difficulty with the loving part of their lives unless something happens to change that. Fish's story is interesting. Some people are so driven and locked into a viscious cycle in their behaviour. The child's illness was a symptom of the need for change and was a blessing in disguise and happily it encourged a rethink. Yes, why do some people persist in such a lifestyle - it's about what people perceive as a successful life and some will go to such great lengths to achieve it. They just can't perceive an alternative. I can't understand what Maxwell's friends will actually 'do' all the days that the child is in nursery that they couldn't do with the child with them. Surely you can still enjoy yourself as a group, a family unit, if you pick your holiday right. Having said that, we didn't go on holiday at all when my three were very small. My husband was so much older than me and not so physically able to cope with carting little ones around everywhere and although I was quite capable I would have been exceedingly tired which would have defeated the purpose of a break. But if money hadn't have been an issue then a villa in the country with a private pool and a nice local village nearby would have been fabulous, though I would have found a journey abroad difficult to justify with very small children. It was better to keep things ticking over gently at home, keep everyone fed, sleeping and content and go out locally regularly for walks and sight seeing etc. It was best for me to do it that way, anyway. I admire couples no end who have the energy to take a gang of small kids on camping hols etc. I was never with a guy who could muster up enough energy to do such a thing. But the stories you so often hear about incidents with youngsters in such situations still makes me wonder about the wisdom of it. People seem obsessed about getting 'a holiday' - but they aren't compulsory are they? If you can afford something that makes things easy with little ones so that the CHILDREN enjoy it as much as you, then that's great. But how many of us can? [%sig%]

How about we bring home offices in for women..or the house man! That way they get their career home delivered, and the child is cared for properly? I mean, this is the day and age where computer and TV link ups are to homes also, annit? Got me buggered...some of these stupid bloody excuses just don't wash with me at all!

You're right emma he does have an unusual-ish name. I agree wholeheartedly about doing activities as a family unit as opposed to placing the child in the care of people who are classed as "qualified" to teach a child how to sit properly at a table, how to build some blocks, paint, draw, use potty, play ball, have decent manners. Most of which is taught in the home anyway. The mother of this child reminds us constantly how her son can sit at a table and not leave until he's eaten a meal and how good he is now at holding a fork....lol....these are just things that everyone picks up in their own sweet time, there is no fork holding race or table sitting endurance competition. They're competitive and this is why they enjoy their jobs so much and spend as much time as possible doing it. Either that or spending too much time at work has exaggerated this streak in them. I love watching my girl tackling a fork, holding it in her in own special way and denying all attempts from me to show her properly. I love how she gets half her ravioli down her t-shirt and then picks at her t-shirt with her fingers and squeaks "yak!" I love how she can't sit still for five minutes and will get out of her seat spontaneously and run around in cirles shouting "Bunga! Bunga!" (that's her word for Dora the Explora). And we all know that as time goes on she'll learn to be patient, she'll learn to talk and she'll (hopefully) eat her dinner without spilling it all down her (although she may develop her dads clumsiness) lol - it's fulfilling to witness her living, breathing and being happy. She's not a part of some race that some of the parents have set-up and have running. I don't understand it.

camping sounds good. Although.. nah.

I was in daycare for most of my early childhood: my mum was a single divorcee and worked incredibly hard (and long hours) to keep food on the table. But I was lucky; I had a childminder part of the time, who lived on a farm. I got to help raise calves and feed chickens and shoot BB guns (well, it was fun at the time). I also had my maternal grandparents, who took me camping very regularly during the summer with the "Good Sam Club"- kind of a group of civic-minded retirees. They were very ecologically-minded so I was out at the age of four, picking up litter at campgrounds. So, although I would say that my relationship with my mother is a little ... distant, I guess you'd call it (although I love her and appreciate the sacrifices she had to make to raise me), I feel that I had a very well-rounded, interesting, and loving childhood. I think that's all a kid asks for, is that s/he is assured that s/he is loved, and that -someone- in the family spends some good, quality time with them...

I don't see what is so wrong with the parents wanting to have time together. It was only 9 days. If it makes their marriage stronger, that should improve the environment for the children. I was never left alone or with someone elsefor more than a couple of hours, and that only took place 2-3 times. My mother never worked outside the house while I was living with them, and more important, my parents had no life outside of so-called "caring for me." It was horrible beyond imaging. I would have killed to have some time to myself, and their marriage was rubbish--screaming and recriminations day and night. OTOH, the problem with parenting over the past 30 years or so is that people think of children as a possession. To make the picture complete, buy a house, a car, a suit, some furniture--oh, and don't forget the children...they will look nice sitting on the furniture. In fact,they will BE furniture. Of course they feel abandoned. They were never wanted in the first place, not as human beings, they were only acquisitions. A new coffee table would have been a better idea for some of these people.

I think that's what we're saying. If the parents want time alone, they should take a holiday -by themselves- for a few days, instead of harbouring the illusion of a 'family' holiday which is just a continuation of their 'family' life at home, e.g. only spending a few hours per day with their own child.

AG, to your point above, research seems to support that it's a huge benefit to a child to have consistent caregivers that they can bond with, best if it's parents but as long as there's someone it's okay. Much better to leave the kids in the care of a familiar caregiver than dump them with strangers in a foreign environment. I imagine it would feel really awkward to spend a long holiday with your child if they were normally in daycare every day for long hours. A bit like being forced to holiday with a distant relative. That needs pants changed. We haven't been on a lot of holidays with our two, it usually seems like more work than staying home (as Emma said). But it doesn't last forever. We took our first son to Beijing when he was two for three weeks. My husband was working. The little guy and I got around the city, seeing things together and had a great time. I'm not saying I wouldn't have had a more intensely pleasurable time in China with complete freedom to explore on my own, but it was still very good. Plus it's a nice feeling to think that dozens of chinese tourists have photos in THEIR albums, of their big trip to the Great Wall or the Forbidden City, and there they are with my little blonde curly top, the top attraction of their day. It was fun. He doesn't remember much about it, but there was one time we went to a big park, and a little girl befriended him, held his hand, walked around with him. It all goes in, it all makes some kind of impression. I like to think it was all for a reason, it gave something to him as well as to us (and the dozens of chinese tourists!)