I suggest "Manly Mushrooms"

neilwills, I read Affluence and Effluence. I rated it a five. I've got nothing to say about it, though.

I enjoyed Manly Mushrooms. Reminisent of Pinter. Meaning behind seeming meaninglessness.

I think Sean, and sorry to open old wounds, that your idea of discussing and reviewing 'literary fiction', though a sound and good one, was tainted a bit by the way you launched the idea and using the word "shredding" - it sounded perhaps more cruel and judgmental than you intended. I'd be more than up for discussing the more serious pieces on the site, but there's room for all kinds of writing here, and not everyone wants their work 'dissected''. Let's see where this takes us, but try not to be too harsh on anyone. (And that includes people being harsh on Sean - remember that the work and the person are not the same)

Well when I asked for help with my story here I said I didn't mind it to be critized or "dissected" and I got quite a few mostly negative criticism which I was grateful for as a learning experience. However I wasn't expecting the mockery from a few others (I have the dubious distinction of being the only one I've seen so far) and I felt embarrassed that I don't even want to mention that story again. I much prefer harsh criticism at leat I learn something. Gini

I remember that thread and the unfortunate juvenile postings about breast descriptions towards the beginning. I think the people who responded at that level let themselves down and probably felt embarrassed about it afterwards. I have had plenty of thoughtful and constructive criticism from people on this site, and have tried to give some as well, both to you and to others. For me that is the life blood of Web publication. I know that not everybody feels the same way. Going back to seannelson's point, I think a lot of what he is saying is very stipulative and narrow. "Literature" doesn't actually mean "stories with a message" or "stories with ideas" or stories of any particular kind. Surely it's just a neutral description. Pornography is part of "literature" but not a very important or significant part. So is Mills and Boon type pulp for the brain-dead. Maybe he means "literary fiction", which tends to mean slightly obscure and plotless stuff dealing in minute detail with a day in the life of some totally uninteresting individual (or am I letting my cynicism show?). If he wants ideas about the world and mankind's place in it maybe it's philosophy or science or religion that he should be reading rather than fiction. Where literary merit is concerned I would simply extend to literature the late Louis Armstrong's analysis of musical merit: There are two kinds of literature, good literature and bad literature.

No offence Sean.. don't take this the wrong way m8; but to be honest 'Manly Mushrooms' just wasn't my kind of thing. It was ok, and I found some of the dialogue amusing; especially the bit about the mushrooms - I thought that was great; but apart from that it didn't really leave a lasting impression on me. That's just me though.. everybodies different. So don't take it to heart. I did spend some time looking through your abc set, actually I read all of it, and I found a piece of writing that I thought was really excellent, something which spoke to me and which was more my kind of thing called: "Child of Nature" I recommend people check it out, as it's a good piece man: http://www.abctales.com/abcplex/viewStory.cgi?s=21012 It's a story about a runner. And I really enjoyed this, it's about following your heart and doing things your way, and not how other people tell you it should be done. Well worth taking a look at if anybodies got time. Some other pieces of Sean's I liked were: "Race with a bullet" http://www.abctales.com/abcplex/viewStory.cgi?s=22547 "Stranger every morning" http://www.abctales.com/abcplex/viewStory.cgi?s=20546 "Girl in Coffee Shop" http://www.abctales.com/abcplex/viewStory.cgi?s=20683 "Zero points for quick decisions well made" http://www.abctales.com/abcplex/viewStory.cgi?s=20524 I thought these were all good pieces of writing, and I recommend them to anyone who's got a bit of time to spare. Nice one Sean, I spent an enjoyable hour or so, reading through your abc set.

And feel free to put any writing up for discussion you like Sean, I won't dissect it man. I'll be honest, and say if I liked it or not, but I won't shred it or anything, I'll look for ways to try and encourage the author.. as that's how I work. I'am interested in seeing what pieces you would recommend anyway, as there's probably authors you've read, which I haven't read yet. Like today I read through "The Thyme Passages" by stace and really enjoyed them. I wouldn't have known about them if you hadn't recommended them on the discussion board, so I'am glad you did. I don't tend to visit the last hundred as much as I used to, I kind of do author searches nowadays, and peruse people's abc sets. So at times I miss some really good stuff.. stace is someone I will be looking out for from now on.. so thanks for pointing her work out. That's kinda what others are doing here: jus recommending work other people might not have read yet.. work other people might enjoy.. maybe some of it's not your cup of tea.. but others have got something out of it, me included.. we're all different. There's room for everyone here man. If you don't like any writing that's been recommended you don't have to read it, just ignore the thread. Just go easy on people, don't be too harsh with your criticisms, be honest but be gentle too. As not everyone can take it. I do dig intellectual literature.. I love stories with ideas. I like all kinds of literature I guess. I think what I look for more than anything in a piece of writing: is if it leaves a lasting impression on me. Creates a memory, that stays with me. If it does that, then I class it as being good literature. Anyway keep writing dude.

re hameline: I thought the breast descriptions were actually a hint that the prose was slightly cliched and I am sure none of the 'tit' contributors to that thread are embarrassed in the least. re sean: manly mushrooms was an interesting read. It was a good story but the humour was slightly too passe for me. The content seemed to be trying to reach out but fell short at the last cliched hurdle. Reasonably good yarn? yes. was there a point? ermm eventually, yes. was it well told? average. intellectual literature? I leave that for the intellectually literate to judge.

I'm beginning to wonder if we're all victims of a practical joke here. I thought "Manly Mushrooms" was written in a spirit of irony, right up to the ending. I thought it would turn out to be two old gay men in their Long Island beach condo doing a bit of role play with their friends as an opening to a sex party (Let me help you out of that lieutenant's uniform, big boy!). But apparently we are supposed to take the plot seriously. I don't wish to offend but it is my honest view that this one contains about as much insight and social realism as the average Superman comic. I also think Inspector Morse's implication that the story telling is "average" is highly flattering. A story that contains lines like "He seemed shocked with nervousness" is, in my estimation, struggling to touch that median. And I'm willing to say that under my own name so if sean wants to "shred" my stuff he is welcome. Just a little thought from me: if we really want to improve the quality of the offerings on these pages maybe what we should be pleading for is that people proof-read and revise their stories more before they submit. A lot of the stuff I read here, although it may be lively and entertaining and thought-provoking, is a bit unpolished and carelessly presented. I think that aspect might be better worth following up rather than whether or not stories have this elusive "intellectual" content.

I'm not convinces that trying to write 'literature' is a good idea. Most of the great works of the past were produced to entertain and maybe earn the author a bob or two, and were only recognized as literature some time later. If a story works as a story, then then the idea behind it will come through naturally. To use it merely as a means of putting across an idea risks falling flat on both counts. I read 'Manly Mushrooms' and though I enjoyed the repartee I found the story thin to the point of anorexia. As for the point - I am obviously far too thick to see it. Was it a peek into the Oval Office or just a couple of gays indulging in role-playing? Who knows? Who cares? Incidentally, if anyone wants to 'shred' my stuff, feel free - though as it's only written to amuse and all intellectual content ruthlessly expunged it's probably not worth the bother . . .

Re: Child of Nature I didn't like this piece and I said so to Sean a few weeks back. I agree there is a point he is trying to make and a good one but he says it in an uninteresting way where the end is highly predictable and the characters two-dimensional. Whenever I see the "good poor someone" against the "rich bad someone else" reminds me of what I read in a book about literary criticism and that is, the world in (good) literature is no longer divided into black and white but accepts that life is a combination or gradient of these two opposites. That is my (subjective) opinion though. On the other hand, Sean is an excellent critic who critiqued my story seriously and constructively hitting on exactly what I was trying (poorly) to convey. Sirt: thanks, for your gallant intervention, you're always the gentleman and I already said I was grateful for your critique. IM - I didn't say "They" were embarrassed. I am sure they aren't! Gini

oh well I guess everyone's different.. I liked the story myself.. I thought it was good.. maybe I just got a taste in literature that noone else shares.. I'd probably make a lowsy critic actually.. I seem to miss the points that everyone else sees. Not that I'am bothered or anything.. I couldn't really give a monkies.. I'am just me. I like what I like, and don't like, what I don't like. To be honest critiqing is starting to do my head in.. I mean who gives a damn, about someone elses opinion, everyone is different, and you get different responses, and it just ends up confusing you.. so what's the point. I guess when you get into the state of mind where your just writing to produce something that pleases others.. then you lose some of the enjoyment, some of the spontaneity, the feeling of letting writing do what it wants to. So that a piece of writing winds up maybe becoming something a bit too good, a bit too polished.. a bit too perfect. lacking the mistakes which makes it human. I'am not sure I want to learn the technical side of writing anymore.. I don't want my pieces to become all polished and perfect.. I like my mistakes.. they make the things I write seem more human.. and I like to see mistakes in the things other people have written also.. sometimes a mistake can become a work of art's chief beauty. But then that's just my opinion.. maybe I'am just strange or something.. I can't quite get my head round the literature world at the moment.. not sure I like this technically correct pedantic vibe.. I preferred it when my writing was just raw and human, full of emotion. Not like some kind of machine that wants results.. it kills the spirit for me that does. Takes away the enjoyment of writing. In fact I eckon that's what the cause of writers block is.. caring too much.. trieing too hard.. you block the creativity when you do this. You have to wake up and realise it don't matter. So what.. so what if you write the worst pile of literature in the world.. at least you've written something. Why does everything you write have to be so darn perfect? Oh if you just did this.. or said it like this.. or maybe put a bell here or a whistle there.. it would make the peice so much better.. Balls to masterpeices man. I think my attitude is changing.. like Yoda says: "Unlearn what you have learned" I'am going back to my roots man, I've decided, stuff this critiqueing lark.. I'am going back to the attitude I had when I first started writing.. which is just to write for the hell of it.. who cares what anyone thinks.. I kinda feel that if you enjoy writing something, then the reader will enjoy it too.. along with all the glorious mistakes that you make. regardless of whether it's technically correct or not. Who gives a monkies.. maybe a publisher might.. But I don't care anymore.. maybe with an attitude like what I'am developing I'll never get published, but so what, I'd rather write from my heart man. Just write for the love of it.. write a novel for the hell of it.. write about anything you feel like.. no matter how wierd, crazy, sensible, chaotic, spiritual, sobering, fantastical, angry, auto-biographical, poetical it is. Just for the sheer enjoyment of putting words on paper.. and watching them all meld together into something new. Who cares if it's technically correct or not? Who cares if it's got an intellectual idea? Or if the grammars lowsy, or if it hasn't got a hook, or isn't unpredictable enough.. or there isn't a twist or some awe-inspiring message or descriptions.. who gives a damn? Everyone except me I guess.

Re: Whenever I see the "good poor someone" against the "rich bad someone else" reminds me of what I read in a book about literary criticism.. Oh I (do) appreciate a good critique.. must dash got to tend to my pot pourri, rearrange my quaint English flowers. I have some (important) guests coming for dinner. funky

I am sure I may laugh too at any attempt on your part to write in Spanish but I think I will consider that at least you are trying. I am not one of the lucky ones whose native language is English . . . so I need to be corrected periodically (and often) Gini

well, if Yoda said it... coz, the thing about Yoda is, he's not just a really wise little guy. he's a bad-a.ssed motherf.ucker with a light-sabre too!

i thought he was a rubber puppet ...

soz man jus messin hameline.. didn't know you (were) Spanish was being daft.. trieing to be funny. *** Ooops jus remembered I'am meant to be bad a.rsed mothaf*cker.. Hooopa hhooopa * ignites his lightsaber *

i bet you're a bad-a.ssed motherf.ucker with a light-sabre, mummyfishbone.

*suggests to chant that his manly mushroom might be in mortal danger*

well, precisely. when you're facing Count Dooku, it's an arm or a leg you might lose. but enter mummyfishbone and who knows what her light-sabre might lop off.

Now now.. peace brethren. love one another.

*nods head remorsefully.* of course, you're high... ness.

ya leave da dala alone man.. or i gonna fill ya with lead.. I got a bullet here with ya name written on it. So be warned mothaf.*cker * draws out his ak *

i wouldn't draw out your ak right now, bad_funkster. with Fish round here, it might be in mortal danger.

God bless the bad_funkster and his ak.. May the Lord be with thee and upon thee, this day and forever more.. May he guide your bullets with divine accuracy.. and may your ak be blessed with protection from all mortals. amen/awomen

*wonders what funky is on and hopes he doesnt give any of it to mykle*

It has been a day of many ;o)'s Let us pray he doesn't pass any of whatever he has been on to Mykle. For the sake of the brethren. We must hope and pray. The ;o) is becoming a troublesome thing on the internet. One never knows when it might spring up.. I fear for the congregation. It is infecting our world.. polluting the minds of our children.. turning them to Satan. We must join together and stamp out this evil once and for all.

I don't visit the phorum very often but have followed with interest, the rancorous debate begun when seannelson stepped up to the parapet. I think Funky_Seagull captures something relevant when he mentions enjoyment. If you enjoy writing maybe the reader will enjoy it too. Absolutely bloody right. That's the most you can hope for (apart from maybe that someone offering loads of wonga to buy it from you).

And another thing. No xxxers bothered to look at Affluence and Effluence. I enjoyed writing it so hopefully, someone might also enjoy it.