Zombies

Andrew, Glad to see you have already gotten that far in Wolfe's book. The photographic negative metaphor was actually Dr. Wilson's device, as I recall. Wolfe used it to illustrate the point. Be that as it may, the analogy is apt. I personally believe that Wolfe is very rigorous in these things and actually hangs around with these folks. He probably has it right. If you think about it, the developing negative metaphor is almost obvious. Sure, you could become a football player, but unless you have the basic imprint for those characteristics which make for an exceptional player, you will never get beyond a certain point no matter how hard you train. I played trumpet for many years, taking private lesssons, etc but at some point is became clear that no matter how hard I worked at it, I was not going to go very far. In itself, that's not a bad thing. There is no requirement to be number 1 in something; enjoying it is enough, but being a half-baked trumpet player is not much of a life, so I made other choices. Most people do something like this. As with so many metaphors, the real problems come with the details. This science is in its very early stages and there will be a lot of false leads and dead ends. I'm waiting for more information.

nah man I don't dig the negative blueprint idea. I think anybody can be anything they want to be. True like a roleplay game we start off with so much strength, stamina, luck, intelligence points: but as we go on those numbers increase, and we can be anything we want to be. It's just what you believe, you are what you believe. Your reality is what you think it is. If your passionate about something and have perseverance you can be anything you like and be good at it as well. It's all to do with the mind and what you think about yourself. The mind is like a computer that you programme with your thoughts. we form habits, and if we keep thinking we'll never be say a good trumpet player, then we never will be. But if you think positive and say stuff like, I'am gonna be a really good trumpet player and make music that will make the angels weep, then you will. You need perseverance of course and passion too, but nothing is impossible for those that believe.

There's a good Hofstadter article called "Careening around the cranium" which disproves the idea of a "Little Mykle" inside the brain directing things, what we think of as our personality is really the way that certain nerves fire in relation to certain external stimuli.

Thanks Andrew - I'm a bit disappionted as I found the article very interesting. I take it "Careening around the cranium" is from more recent findings?

mark, I have to say you got me there. I can't think of a suitable answer to your question. Your right, there are certain random factors in life that we have no control over whatsoever: like catching a disease, or being born blind, some peole in third world countries are starving through no fault of their own; and some of them pray for the rain to satisfy their intense thirst in times of drought. Maybe I was a bit too arogant to assume I was the master of my destiny, it seems we are all given certain things in life to begin with, like a roleplay i.e. strength: 45 intelligence: 25 stamina: 65 luck: 40 wisdom: 3 etc. and we are given a life which is like a field to till. Some fields are very fertile to begin with and not much work is needed. Other fields are made up of rocky ground; and are hard work to till. With the talents we've been given to begin with we must try and use them to the best we can and hopefully increase them and make our scores on the roleplay sheet a little higher. But tommorrow I could catch a serious illness; or maybe I have some genetic disorder which means I'am gonna lose my eyesight. These things I have no control over, and as such it makes me realise just how weak and mortal I am; and as such it is probably better to adopt the attitude of being humble, than to walk around thinking I'am some kind of superhuman. Just got to do the best I can while I can, and not punish myself too much for making mistakes but try to learn from them. I hope I can increase my talents and give back to my creator more than I took; and that oneday my field will become a fertile one.

I refuse to be confined by genetics, or circumstances, fate or God, or anything. I rule my destiny.

I'm not sure that I believe that we are given an 'alloted span' because this would infer that free will could not affect the outcome of our choices: that deciding to stop smoking, or drinking heavily, or engaging in a dangerous sport or pastime would have no effect on our life span. The very concept of an alloted span suggests God and pre-destination and as I said before I cannot believe that God would write plays for His own amusement. For what else would life be, but a play, if all the parts were already written?

This has nothing to do with the previous topics but I thought that the sort of people who might read this thread might be the best to ask. If you get a virus does it sometimes make you slightly crazy? I notice that when I'm ill I think strange thoughts and do and say things I would usually never normally consider. It's always interested me that viruses can make my body cough and sneeze to spread themselves but I sometimes wonder if they also - somehow - share more than just my body. It sometimes seems like a contest of wills, with the virus trying to depress and debilitate me. Crazy I know.....

Maybe 'disproves' is too strong a word. I don't think anyone is really sure what goes on in the brain at that sort of consciousness level. It's a good article because it takes the problem and shows just how hard it is to accept that an "inner I" is not in charge of the way we think. The immediate reaction is to say, of course there is an "inner I", look, I can think of a penguin, right now, nobody made me do that. But how much choice did you have in deciding to think of a penguin rather than an owl ? I think your article might actually be along the same lines - what we think are spontaneous decisions are ones which somewhere in the brain have already been decided without 'our' input, which is why you can reach for a cup before 'you' have decided you would like a drink.

Again, Tom Wolfe covers this subject in Hooking Up. Two essays, "Digibabble, Fairy Dust, and the Human Anthill" and "Sorry, but Your Sould Just Died" deal with the emerging area of neuroscience, brain imaging, and the genetic/chemical predestination conundrum. I will not even attempt to summarize. He does it so much better. These essays cover other subjects as well, but they primarily concern the topic of this thread.

I must agree with andrew, otherwise all our wishes and desires would be somehow preordained-I believe that spontaneity is like a brook gushing up fresh water and not a waterfall, which regardless of our consciousness and alertness drifts us into the river of preordained actions. This is a great topic, congratulations Mykle!!!!! :o)) ==============skydolphin

Thanks justyn - (the Zombie made me say that) *smile*

The pre-ordained thing often leads into a difficult argument about God. If God is omnipotent (and if he created the universe out of nothing but will, it is hard to believe he is not), then how can he not know what is going to happen in the future ? And if he does, then the future is preordained in which case nobody is really responsible for their actions. Hume came up with a scary train of thought on this. Either our actions are pre-ordained, in which case we are not responsible for them, or they are not, in which case our actions occur as a consequence of who we are. Given that our characters depend on nature (the genes we inherited) and nurture (the environment we grew up in and the experiences we have had), neither of which are within our control, then we are not responsible for our actions either. I can't say that I sign up to that, but on a very minor basis, I don't like eggs and have absolutely no say in whether or not I like them. I dislike them and that's all there is to it, it wasn't a conscious decision. I don't like Van Morrison because my dad used to play his records till four am when he was on a drinking jag, very loudly, at a particularly miserable time in my life. Again, I didn't really have a lot of choice in the way in which I was exposed to Van Morrison's music. Now, to what extent is my ability to determine between what is morally right and morally wrong and walk the right path, any different from whether or not I like eggs or Van Morrison ? For those people who believe in a person's moral obligation to society, it is impossible to see that anyone else could have any different view. For those people who like eggs, it is very difficult to see how anyone else could be repulsed by them. I'm not sure. I think that in order for society to operate, people who operate outside its boundaries have to be treated as though that was a conscious choice for them; but I'm not sure that the line is as definite as good/bad.

Well with things like flu you get a bit of a fever and when people go into a fever they can go a bit mad and say and do strange things. Not sure why going into a fever has this affect on you though, maybe somone else knows... going off on another tangent here sorry: Viruses are interesting, they could actually help humanity in the future as I've heard they've created a virus that eats away cancer. Once all the cancer is eaten and eliminated, then the virus dissapears. So amazingly through something that causes illness they have found a cure for illness. It will probably be a long way off though before they feel confident enough to use it on cancer patients, but it brings hope...

An interesting arguement Andrew. I think one of the main tenets of most religions is that of free will. Like a good parent that can see the mistakes that his children will make may give advice but not interfere beyond that. Sometimes making mistakes is the only way to learn and if we can learn from these mistakes then perhaps they were not mistakes after all but a way to grow. In the Prophet Gibran has him answering questions on children. The Prophet says that children are like arrows and the best a good parent can do is to be a strong and sturdy bow, take careful aim and let the arrows fly where they will. Even if our actions are pre-ordained how we take responsibilty for them and accept the consequences is what makes the real difference - unless that too is pre-ordained. If that were so there would seem to be no point in creating it all in the first place and I cannot believe God has nothing better to do than write plays for His own amusement. If we take the other arguement that we are merely a product of our genes and environment it is hard to see how identical twins can be so different. There is something unique in all of us that we can either encourage or try to suppress and that something is what makes us more than machines at the mercy of the whims of fate. Maybe we cannot always choose what we do but we can certainly be aware of our actions and through that awareness strive for improvement. I hope:-)

I have been thinking further about pre-destination. I thought perhaps God did write a script for each individual at one time but with the vast increase in the size of the population and problems with Lucifer he decided to give the job to His son. Christ decided to delegate and so effectively passed the job on to His disciples. The disciples were not really up to the job and so each wrote a single part that had to do for all the people in their division. This explains the birth of modern Astrology. *smile*

Thought that was called passing the buck...

I meant the Astrologers noticed that there were only 12 different writers (one for each sign) and once they became familar with each writers style they could predict what sort of day each sign would have.

ah but people were into astrology long before Jesus man. I mean there is evidence right, that man has been technologically advanced before. You know they found a whole city buried somewhere in India, the strange thing about it was there were no bodies but loads of glass. Apparently glass is formed when carbon is brought to an extreme heat.( I think, not too sure so correct me if I'am wrong) The city they found was very advanced. Well the theory goes that maybe this city had been nuked. There is an ancient story about a war between India and Atlantis. Apparently an ancient Indian civilization was just as advanced as Atlantis, only they chose not to use weapons and instead they used some kind of psychic power that the yogis channelled. Well Atlantis tried again and again to capture this Indian civilization and failed, because the power of these yogis was too strong for them. So they decided if they couldn't make them part of their empire they would nuke them. So they just about wiped out a whole civilization - bastards. It sounds to me like the Atlanteans were bad people. They got what they deserved when their continent sunk. let it be a warning to the leaders of the Western world, a prophecy even. If you read the bagavadita, somewhere in it there is a strange story about a war of fire that poisened the water and killed just about everything. Sounds like a very good description of a nuclear bomb to me. The governments don't seem to like the idea that man has been this technologically advanced before, maybe even more technologically advanced than we are now. I don't know why they aint so keen on this theory. But I'am telling you man, this modern world is nothing new. Man has reached this far before and probably gone further than we have. I really believe that. You know archeaologists even found a device in South America that could cook food using radio waves, and other strange devices. Sorry to go a bit dark and depressing on evryone here, but it's the truth I feel, if we don't change our ways then we're all gonna sink like Atlantis, whether we wanna admit or not, we got sort it out man. I'am jus saying the same old @!#$ that I always say, and there aint no point in me saying it really, cause evryone knows the score. You only have to turn on the telly or stand by a busy road to know the score. The hard part seems to be doing something about it, it almost seems like we're battling against powerful dark forces that always seem to win, no matter how hard you try to fight them. But I aint giving up, even if I die, I will haunt the fuckers...hehe.. you better believe it. I will never ever shut up, I will torment them with my voice night and day. What the @!#$ am I going on about? soz man too much whiskey and psychedelic poetry...hic.. Anyway enough blurb, jus losing the plot again folks, maybe I should jus delete this, I doubt anyones got this far anyway. I jus can't seem to stop these darn fingers moving across the keys.... ***** stop it STOP IT!!! STOP IT!!! AAAAAARRRHGHGHHGHGHJKJJKHHGGFTTF MR.Seagull: Yo Unknown entity: bloody hell mate you can't half talk sometimes. Mr. Seagull: Yeah I know, I think it's cause I'am a complete saddo. Unknown Entity: maybe, but perhaps not, perhaps you are just experiencing a temporary state of internet madness that will pass in amoment. ..... hehehe ~OO~ I just can't help myself...hehe Unknown Entity: You think that's funny mr. Seagull? Mr. Seagull: well yeah... Unknown Entity: well have you noticed your the only one laughing... Mr. Seagull: ? Unknown Entity: Now tell me, what kind of a complete nutty saddo talks to themselves in an internet forum, laughs at their completely unfunny jokes, and doesn't give a damn. Mr. Seagull: er... ME? MeNtAl BrEaKdOwN sos sos sos p.s now you understand why you mustn't take drugs!!! JuS sAy No!! AcTuAlLy It DoN't HuRt To SaY yEs SoMeTiMeS, jus don't do to many...ok I will try and find that bagavadita vibration if anyones interested and post it. Jus can't be arsed to look for it now..

I'm interested, Funk... (when you can be arsed)

:o(

I am in the middle of a virus, that's why I've got time to write on the threads. Funky, your answer shows you're far from arrogance, and it made me wince as I'm so aware of my own! I believe in an overall creator and that Jesus is his incarnation, I'm also always fascinated by the Scientific discoveries that show more and more the wonder of creation. I talk ( Isuppose I should say `pray`, but I do mean `talk`) to God reguarly about my doubts, fears, disillusionsetc. It's just nice having someone to talk to about it! Does `He`answer, yeah, if I really want to listen. Now, is that `Fever`, schitzophenia, or faith? Probably all three.

Mykle, stars are dancing, perhaps a choreographer or a dancer should write about them............ Oh what a dance, what a marvellous universal dance!!!!!! :o)))))))))))))) ==================skydolphin

I talk to my cats about the same sort of things, they give me similar answers too. ... that, btw, wasnt a criticism as such (though it sounded like it even ot me), I say believe what you want (and that one sounded patronising, oh well) and I'll believe what I want. Ive got a strange feeling that any virus we create to help us will just mutate and do us just as much damage i.e. mixamatosis (is that spelt correctly?), lets reduce the bunny population to help everyone, whack the ecosystem back to how it was etc... that worked didnt it. GM foods and stuff, its all the same, itll all go wrong, I will eventually say something positive on this forum, we're dooooomed, doomed I tell you. Anyway, to carry on with the very traditional and biblical field analogy, almost everyone wants their field to produce the best produce ever but, as you said, we have no control over almost any of the variables. Hypothetically we can be whatever we want, we can grow in any direction we choose and be successful but in reality our growth will always be stunted. Im gonna stop on this thread, dont wanna bring you all down, tune in next time for my next topic which should be interesting

Haven't had time to catch up properly but I had already thought of your point Funky - which is why I said 'modern' astrology. Phew, even jokes get me in trouble.

Strange to say Funky Seagull I share many of your sentiments. I think it might be silicon not carbon that the glass was formed of unless it was a form of diamond. There is something in Revelations about a star called 'Wormwood' that burned and poisoned the water (I think it was a third of the planet - I'll get back to you on that). I heard somewhere that the name of the nuclear power plant that exploded in Russia - in Chernobyl - is their word for 'Wormwood' but I don't know if it's true. Suprisingly it seems that the safety systems had been turned off while they tried some experiments....

The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up. The second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned into blood, a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed. The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star, blazing like a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water--the name of the star is Wormwood. A A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter.

As for the "powerful dark forces that always seem to win" if you get the time read my "Puppets" and see what you think. Luck you weren't drinking Gin or you might have got depressed! *smile*

Can we stop them, do we dare? It’s easier to say you just don’t care. Big Brother is watching with eyes in the sky Searching for those who still question why. Shooting the shepherds and bombing the sheep. Feeding us dreams to help us to sleep!

Reading Funky Seagulls earlier posting reminded me of my misspent youth and a quote I’d heard from Blake or was it Ogden's Nutgone Blake? Something like “The road of excess leads to the Palace of Wisdom.” It was only later that I realised the “Palace of Wisdom” was likely to be a euphemism for the psychiatric ward or maybe the emergency ward. Still Happiness Stan did find what happened to the moon and dangly.

Justyn's recommendation of Tom Wolfe's book has given me an excellent metaphor, which I shall now steal. The mind at birth is not a blank tablet to be written on, but a photographic negative and life a developing solution. It can be developed well or badly, but the only photograph you're ever going to get is the one on the negative. I don't know enough about the current state of neuroscience to say whether this is true or not, but it seems a possibility. What does that do to free-will ? It might be (indeed is) my deepest desire to be a professional footballer, but that's not what is on my negative.

I agree, excellent metaphor Andrew. I watched the Beeb's cloning program again last night and it seemed to back up what you are saying in a physical sense - that we are what our genes make us - but even if that were true in a mental sense too, I don't think it matters that much. When I was younger I could never see the point of the Olympics for the disabled. I thought - what's the point they're never going to break any Olympic records. Of course the point is simply to strive to be the best you can regardless of your limitations. Life is not a competition - though Capitalism tries to make it so - it’s a chance to Be. A chance to make contact with things other than yourself and hopefully learn and grow from the experience. You might not be able to be a professional footballer but that does not stop you from playing and enjoying football - or at least it shouldn’t. I believe in transcendence - that we can transcend our limitations if we are dedicated enough. It may be that what we see as our limitations might be our real limit ie. we are limited by limiting ourselves and our dreams. You will never do it if you don't try.

Of course I always talk a load of idealistic crap on a Monday morning :-)

Nah Mykle, you talk sense man, ' There is a time in every man's education. When he arrives at the conviction, that envy is ignorance, that imitation is suicide; that he must take himself for better, for worse, as his portion. That though the universe is full of good, no kernal of nourishing corn can come to him, but through his toil bestowed on that plot of land which is given him to till. The power which resides in him is new in nature; and none knows what that is which he can do, nor does he know until he has tried.' Emerson ' Essay On Self-reliance '

I have not heard that before but I'm very pleased to hear it now. Thanks Funky. What do Lake and Palmer have to say?

Have you ever read any Carlos Castaneda Funky? Good stuff if you don't use it for a bible.

There was a thread asking if past poems were still relevant today - well something like that - I think that Kipling's If (and his apple pie recipes) and that "Essay On Self Reliance", that Funky has just introduced me to, will always be both relevant and moving.

Continuing with the metaphor of the developing negative: it seems to me that the modern approach is to try to bring out the detail in a specific area rather than to strive to develop the picture as a whole. In my opinion this inevitably results in an unbalanced and distorted picture. Perhaps the world would be a better place if we concentrated on helping each other develop rather than competing for the ‘best picture in this category’ award.

I reckon that humans are evil nasty scum. If you think about it, what good have humans ever done for the world, name one single thing that we have done that isnt trying to repair some damage we have already caused. The only thing that is good about humans is what they intend to do, cos the consequences of a human life will always end up negative. I mean, add up every single thing that an individual has done, bad things take away from the final score, good things add to it. In the end you will find that its gonna be in the negative. Oh and that God/Preordained thing. Hows this... If God exists then, as has already been pointed out, whatever we do has already been planned so there can be no right or wrong because we cant do anything else. It'd be like blaming that metaphorical arrow for killing someone instead of blaming the archer. If he doesnt exist then you have to ask does anything matter? The answer is no, think about it. Me-Does human life matter? You- yes because... people get hurt and we are alive and life matters etc (say what ever you like cos Ill just say why at the end) Me- Why does that matter? You- Because... Etc, you can do this for ever and each time you think up a reason I can just say "Ah, but why does that matter?" In the end the only thing that counteracts this is God, which, if he doesnt exist, obviously doesnt count. This is why people should just treat life as a nervous twitch, something that they have no control over, something that is forced to happen to them. You just have to make the best of it and dont stress cos if something bad happens... it doesnt matter. This is why I have yet to cry about my Mom (she died last christmas... NO SYMPATHY, I mentioned this simply to show its possible to live this way... i.e. "she died... oh well"). Hmmm... anyone who actually reads all of this is probably gonna judge me a bit harsh but this is my philosophy, it doesnt mean that I hurt people cos it doesnt matter, I live the way I feel is right (Im an emotivist (variant of anyway)). Morals are part of my nervous twitch, I have them, cant get rid of them like you can most socially accepted practices (I rebel, you know, break KitKats the wrong way etc). This didnt really fit into the thread did it :), well im not deleting all of that.

The first question that springs to mind CM is do you consider yourself evil nasty scum? I often think we are thoughtless parasites with delusions of grandure but then .... I'll get back to you CM.

I think Im scum, how could I not. But there is nothing I can do about it, If I just disappeared or suicided or something equally dramatic I would upset loads of people. If I stay I still make people slightly miserable without wanting too, just as everyone does the same. See, if I do something nice people will smile for a minute, but something nasty is stored at the back of their minds for ages, adding to the pile of bad memories and experiences, until finally they snap. But they are used to little miseries, as long as I dont make anyone snap or get close too then I'm seen by society as a good person. I mean, name one good thing that you have done that has made that person happy, truly happy... so happy that they wont be miserable again. Think back to your own experiences, youve had people do nice stuff for/to you but youve had bad times too. Which experiences are easier to remember, which ones have affected you more, which ones change you. It isnt a coincedence that most creative writing comes from anguish, in fact not just writing, anything creative. Most of the top artists are seen as seriously screwed up. TBH I dont know anyone that isnt mucked up completely, its just that some ways are more acceptable. Some ways will put you in an asylum, some will make you popular. Do you know anyone who got straight A's and always succeeds at work but arent happy. Noone has got all of this figured out and until you have you cant be happy, I have most of it figured out (I would say that, its big headed but its what I believe, I couldnt except anything else, I have to work this stuff out) so my life is stupidly simple and so what do I yearn for, complications. Those little things that everyone else seems to talk about that they worry about and think are bad yet these things fill their life up, give it some kind of meaning. Almost all my mates complain that their life is so complicated though, its just silly. (cant believe someone read it all, I thought I was the only one anal enough to read all the posts on a thread :P )

Firstly, I find most of eastern philosophy fairly unsatisfactory as it never leads to any answers that I can except i.e. 'Why?' 'Because!' (or 'Z!'). Secondly, how exactly does it matter in some 'unfathomable way'? I really want it to but havent found any reason to believe that to be true and so for the moment I tend to just treat this idea as one of societies many comfort blankets. Thirdly, I like this neagtive blue print idea. I definitely dont believe that we can be anything we want to be. That is just like that whole perfect island idea. This is, 'Some where out there is a perfect island for me', this analogy was originally devised to illustrate a lack of perfection but it works here too. See, there cant be a perfect island for everyone. Im rambling a bit here but what Im trying to say is, how, if everyone can be what ever they want to be, are there so many binmen? Its not a fun job (trust me, i did it once out of curiosity) but someone has to do it. I doubt anyone wants to be one so why are they in that job? Did they just not try hard enough? Cos I dont really know anyone out there who loves there job although Im sure that someone does somewhere. The only comfort blanket that I cant get rid of is true love, as hard as I try I still keep hoping for an Angel to (literally) drop into my lap. I know its not gonna happen and I should just get off with random 'birds' like most of my mates but I just cant bring myself to do so. Its frustrating.

hmm, the problem of the freedom of the will - what shall we have, tyrannous causality, or blind chance? blind chance hasn't been talked about enough. if our actions are not predetermined by our genes, environment, etc, then what does cause us to choose one action over another - chance? chance seems like the only alternative on offer, and it's not a preferable one. i would rather my actions occurred because i'm the kind of person i am, even though i had no control over the kind of person i am, than that they occur arbitrarily. A.J.Ayer suggested a middle position - compatibilism, but i never understood it, so i can't comment on whether it was any good or not. some confounding of predetermination and determinism on the moral question, i thought. both have moral ramifications, of course, for how can we be held accountable for actions which we have no control over? i'm not sure we need god to justify morality. behaving well rather than badly towards each other is just a more sophisticated way to behave. i'd rather someone didn't piss on my dinner while i'm eating it, and i'm sure most people feel that way. i don't need god to justify this fact, and i don't imagine anyone else does. on the question of whether human life matters, that rather depends from what point of view you're looking at it. if looked at objectively, ie. from outside oneself, it doesn't matter. unfortunately, though capable of objective thought, we are not objective creatures. from my inescapably subjective viewpoint, MY life, and the lives that matter to my life and help ground it and make it what it is matter very much - sorry to hear about your mother, Easty. and although i completely agree that humans have done little good for the world, at the same time, does the world care? only the higher mammals are, to any degree, aware of what's going on. dangers of the pathetic fallacy here, i think. i'm not buying Funky's super-advanced ancient civilisation tales either, though they do make enjoyable reading, just as i don't believe the pyramids are space-ships (or the moon is made of cheese). have no idea whether Atlantis existed or not, and i don't really know that there's much more than the citations in Plato to go on. if i'm not mistaken, doesn't the apocalyptic prophet also talk about the stars falling out of the heavens - not quite sure how that could be tied in to a nuclear explosion. the rivers drying up and the world being consumed in fire are stock poetic images that plenty of pre-Christian civilisations had fun playing with, so i don't think there's much substance in them either. and that's what i think about these things.

At risk of lowering the tone, could I just say this: "Mmmm.... braaaaains. Fresssshh braaaains."

Ah well! Such is life. You start off with a science and theology thread and end up with lonely hearts.

CMEast, perhaps you would care to read what I wrote in the 'Science and Religion' thread.. its more than I wished to, and it comes nowhere nearing to explain a personal philosophy.. but its what I meant by unfathomable.. What does be 'anything I want to be' mean.. do you mean a bird.. a rock.. a tree.. a popstar.. can you be something else by not starting of from where you are now? Did Lech Walesa as a dockyard worker set out to be the president of Poland in the early eighties.. did Bill gates have a master plan to achieve his domination of world software.. whoever your heroes are, be they musicians, writers, scientists, be they contented binmen, teachers, nurses, surgeons etc.. you grow into a role taking decisions in the here and now that are the most ctreative for you and lead to more choices in the future.. of course there is chance and whatnot.. but there are always choices.. even if you make a choice to delegate control to others.. I see why people find the negative film idea an attractive one.. It allows one to wallow around and proclaim there is no meaning to anything.. The truth is that we can always wrest more control of ourselves if even if it is only our emotions from the grasp of others and destiny... wherever we are starting from.

Why don't CMEast and 1legspider go and play out - like nice little children?

Sue, you are a STAR! Now, be good children, a little less noise please :-)))

I’ve been busy all afternoon so I have not had chance to catch up properly but on first impression I would advise CM to check out Buddhism. It answers many of the questions you pose CM and offers a solution. The Buddha began his search for enlightenment at the age of 29, when he encountered an aged man, a sick man, and a corpse, and suddenly realized that suffering is the common lot of humankind. Buddha was one of the greatest human beings, a man of noble character, penetrating vision, warm compassion, and profound thought.

Oh, hear hear, Mykle!