Is This Offensive?

That is exactly my point Karl.. see.. I bet you would not be terribly offended if I used any of the following terms: vanillas, gringos, honkies, white meat, blue-eyed devils, round eyes and crackers.. I want some terms that you would really find racially offensive.. Sos I could feel good about making the choice NOT to use them.. Its just not fair... boo hoo..

Missi, actually I did carry out research which should have been evident from my post but I have not got a copy of cassals and none of the internet slang dictionaries contain a definition. I'm not sure how valid Cassals' entry is though. They don't seem able to to say why it came about on the railways and I also found it amusing that they add the racist element as a parting thought. I also said that some claim the term to mean silly person and that it originates up north but there is no back up to this claim. most mainstream dictionaries contain slang defintions nowadays (fuc.k, nigger, wog etc) but none seem to have nig-nog. I also said that I thought the person who has it on his webpage probably means it to mean silly person but I also said I cannot believe that anyone who is aware of the term is not aware of the alternative definition which, as robert said, is predominant if you do a search. My dutch suggestion came from a site called the racial slur index (or something like that - I can find it again if anyone is interested in the origins of words) and since they had the other slurs pretty well nailed down I quite liked the thought that nig-nog originated there and ended up here ... even if it only turned up on the railways in the 50's. Gabrielle, no the chants are not offensive because the supporters are (presumably?) taking the piss out of themselves. A devout Jew might be upset though. A black bloke calling another a nigger is acceptable but, as an experiment, would you shout out 'Oi! nigger' to the first black you see tomorrow and get back to me with the results of the exercise. (any medical bills are your own responsibilty). 1leg and Karl. during my, apparently non-existant research, I came across an article about insults to whites. It concluded that whilst any other race of person can be very hurt by name calling from the whites ... the reverse does not take place. I think this is true ... as you confirm .... call me white trash, white nigger or honky boy all day long .... i couldn't give a flyingfuck anymore than the next white man. I heard this comment only last week. "he is a typical lazy fucking nigger". now, i know who they are talking about. The person is indeed one of the laziest useless fuckers i have ever come across. but, i know some damn hard working niggers too and said so. they didn't get it. nig-nogs.

Hmmmmm. Interesting posts.. ..now here is one that veers away from the original topic of this thread.. rightfully belongs in the 'what is racism' thread: Could it be Andrew that perhaps you feel more of an individual than being defined by some sort of racial collective..? Thats how I feel. I tend to get offended.. no that is too strong.. annoyed.. when others expect that I should conform to this or that PC view.. I feel very individual.. think through most things in my unusual way and come to my own conclusions.. So do not have any (or at least if I do, I try and discourage them) set responses to situations that I come across.. even if people harbour some views that I would strongly disagree with.. hell.. we may equally agree on other things.. sometimes we may even find a way to move forward, despite our differences. I want to choose whether I feel insulted or not. I think 'racist' as a term is bandied out too easily sometimes. We all have our individual quirks and prejudices. All of us. Sometimes borne off our unfortunate experience.. some through ignorance and a lack of understanding.. more times through an irrational fear.. sometimes more valid, more times widely exaggerated.. Its called being human. Wherever you are coming from.. if you hold out a genuine open mind to me..than you automatically get my time and respect. If you are close minded.. with idealogues that you do not self-challenge in the light of new evidence, even if you seemingly hold some forced libertine views.. I will generally have less time for you.. I would class geniunely deep racism as borne of a mainly personal self-ignorance.. if you are so consumed with such hatred for complete strangers.. such that you may reduce beautiful, complex people to some sort of crude stereotype in your mind.. Clearly you are neglecting other more important things you could be devoting your precious time to.. and probably are an unpleasant and destructive person in many other aspects of your life.. After all it takes self-ignorance to discriminate against someone just because he/she supports another football team, belongs to another religion or belongs to another nationality.. Racism is also internal.. whether you conciously/unconciously slot yourself into some sort of rigid hierarchy.. a very human tendency.. partly for historical and cultural reasons.. partly from responses to your daily environment.. Bob Marley referred to this beautifully in 'Emancipate yourself from mental slavery..' ..and this applies to EVERYONE.. I have come across white people who feel inferior in this or that aspect to others which I have thought was plainly ridiculous.. I am also a firm believer that people in general will respond to how you treat them.. expect the worst stereotypical behaviour and you will get that every time. Force yourself to treat them with respect and understanding (despite any internal prejudices).. and occasionally you may be genuinely surprised.. In my view.. hate crime is hate crime.. whatever form it takes.. speaking as an individual.. I don't see what use it is to come up with finer and finer classifications for the reasons why a stranger walking down the street gets smashed over the head.. ..whoever does it and for whatever reason.. whomsoever it is aimed at.. ..It is Equally Abhorrent.. and should be treated in law as such.

Yes Stormy.. My view is this (and it is only my view).. When we have all evolved to a world where people do not take grea offence at spurious name calling.. and when others do not feel that some could be offended by spurious name calling than we will have conquered 'racism' and instead will have grown to appreciate and enjoy each others differences.. 'Racism' in all its many forms. IMO only, No offense meant ;-)

but the problem is 1leg that some take it beyond babyish name calling and use the colour to blind their perspective. imagine we all had to log in here with our colour. imagine an editor with kukluxklan tendancies. imagine a black eddie gibbons with no cherries and no book because the publisher of 'crap poems today' was a fellow clansman. that is what we are really discussing. not golliwogs. the name calling is really a minor part but made for an interesting thread discussion. ...and no offense taken

Okay - it is 1986, I go to school and a group of people are laughing at a sheet of jokes. I ask them what's so funny and they read some of the jokes out to me, busting themselves up with laughter. "How do you stop a black man from drowning ? " "Take your foot off his head" There were a hundred of these, all painstakingly typed up by someone and circulated, probably around other schools too. I'd never heard of PC then, and had never actually met a black person, but I knew damn well that not only were these jokes not funny, but that they were close to being evil. I was a midget at school, so I did not take the sheet and destroy it, nor did I tell teachers about it, all I could do was not laugh, say "I don't think that's funny" and walk away. Name-calling and 'humour' is quite an effective way for racists to gently implant their ideas - probably nobody who read those jokes in 1986 would laugh at them now, but this is not political correctness - they were never funny, they were never appropriate. 1leg's comments were interesting - I don't think there is a word which would offend me as a white person even a tenth of how angry I get if people call me "four eyes".

Why is that, Andrew? If you're more offended by people mocking a physical disability, then nobody should do it. I'm bald, but I don't get offended in the slightest if people bring it up in conversation or make fun of this. However, we're all different. I'm just wondering why someone slurring the whole race you belong to offends you less than someone casting aspersions on people who wear glasses. It's obviously a personal thing, and you have a right to these feelings. What I'm trying to say (and not very well, I hasten to add) is that somewhere in your makeup an incident has probably happened that brought to the fore a dislike of being mocked about a certain thing. Please don't take this personally, because it's not aimed at you at all, but someone in the above position may well have gone to an all-white school and been bullied for wearing glasses. Is it possible that if that person was one of the few white kids in a mostly black school, and didn't wear glasses until later in life, then the position may be reversed? In other words, they would dislike intensely anyone casting aspersions on their skin colour, but wouldn't mind at all someone mentioning their glasses (or bald head).

there are no truly offensive words to describe white people because being white doesn’t make you vulnerable...there is a perceived hierarchy which we are all aware of, isn’t there? white is better than black, thin is better than fat etc...e.g. you jungle-dwelling four-eyed slapheaded lard-arsed old shirtlifter... you can’t insult someone for being white, thin, male, young, heterosexual and so on because they fit the profile of what is considered best [incidentally, the standard formal greeting in punjab translates as “you are looking fine and fat today!”]

I always thought that particular joke was clever and funny but I do like weird/sick jokes and it desnt have to be racist as the term can be changed so you could take the mick out of gingers (I have ginger hair before you complain,a nd clever because it is a fairly orginal line of thought, more surreal than the usual knock knock). I believe in a very extreme version of free speech, that is, someone can say and do anything so if someone walked down the street chanting nazi slogans I wouldnt care, in fact Id be impressed at his bravery (or stupidity, depends on if he is a fast runner :D). But if the same person started kicking someone in because of those beliefs Id stop him. Words dont hurt at all. The only gray area is if someone starts verbally attacking you personally as its very rare that it isnt done in a violent manner. If someone came up to me and calmy pointed out all the flaws in my character I would be extremely impressed (and maybe slightly upset that they knew me that well) but I couldnt really do anything about it other than thank them for giving me things to work on and providing new insights into my character. (is this where you lot jump on me from a great hight?)

I always thought that particular joke was clever and funny but I do like weird/sick jokes and it desnt have to be racist as the term can be changed so you could take the mick out of gingers (I have ginger hair before you complain,a nd clever because it is a fairly orginal line of thought, more surreal than the usual knock knock). I believe in a very extreme version of free speech, that is, someone can say and do anything so if someone walked down the street chanting nazi slogans I wouldnt care, in fact Id be impressed at his bravery (or stupidity, depends on if he is a fast runner :D). But if the same person started kicking someone in because of those beliefs Id stop him. Words dont hurt at all. The only gray area is if someone starts verbally attacking you personally as its very rare that it isnt done in a violent manner. If someone came up to me and calmy pointed out all the flaws in my character I would be extremely impressed (and maybe slightly upset that they knew me that well) but I couldnt really do anything about it other than thank them for giving me things to work on and providing new insights into my character. (is this where you lot jump on me from a great hight?) BTW, maybe nignog is just a relative of Eggnog?

Andrew, it is NOT 1986 -- stop living in the past! ;)

It could be construed as being just bafflingly ignorant or thoroughly racist. How do we know unless we know the perpetrator and something of their belief system? Who was it? Either way, ignorant or racist, i just find stupidity increasingly, and increasingly, offensive.

Is it an offensive statement that most muggings are created by blacks? Does that offend anyone?

Not at all offensive if that is a fact made public by statiticians who understand the basic rules of their trade based on data collected and compiled by an unprejudiced body.

Perhaps blacks are just more creative in the art of muggings. I hear that they also create a lot spliffs but I don't know where these items are exhibited - but then I'm from out of town;-)

Its certainly not very nicely worded and to my mind does border on the offensive.. Fish after the raised eyebrow bit which I thought was hilarious I'm begining to see mybe just maybe you could be special..

is mykles post offensive? *raises eyebrow again specially for jay*

actually i have been getting some reactions from the household on this matter ... (the original post that is) 14 yr old said "it is def offensive as it is like saying black people are stupid" 16 yr old said "it doesnt offend ME but i can see might offend some people" then i entered a lengthy debate with bloke on the matter ... this ranged across context ... ignorance ... age ... and intent ... i had to conclude that it was a racist comment and this was intrinsically racist and stomped about a bit saying ... "oh! so we let people OFF if they are old or ignorant or stupid DO we???" ... bloke felt it was a different matter if the person had no malicious intent ... does this wash????????

bugger, at midnight I posted to this thread. Everything slowed but I assumed ... wrongly haha ... that it had worked ... don't want to double post do we? ... I refreshed my internet connection, drifted around the last 100, replied to an email and came back here ... only to find that my exceedingly long and tedious post has not worked after all. bollocks. i cannot be arsenewengered to repeat it all so here is a precis: I have been quiet because some twat has enjoyed my work so much that I spent the weekend considering whether to remove it all or not until I regained my usual fuckemall attitude tonight. I find the term highly offensive but I do not think it was meant that way. I found the website in question fairly easily. i would conclude that the postee is of that generation who uses expressions such as this without regard to their origin. having said that of course, as a writer, the author should be aware of the impact of such an outdated term. I then went on a long ramble about examples of racist speech I come across all too frequently and tried to open up the discussion further. I can't be ar.sed now.

It certainly was not meant to be offensive - I was just amused by Karl's "muggings are created by blacks" as if muggings were some sort of ornate mugs, hand carved and artistically painted. The spliff bit was just a throw away line. Anything can sound offensive if you try hard enough to make it so - often the offense is in the eye of the beholder.

ahem...i think my view was not so much that it was "a different matter" but that it was an important consideration...i think if someone is unwittingly offensive it is a lesser crime than if they are wilfully and maliciously offensive i suspect that the owner of the website mentioned is ignorant rather than nasty...this doesn't excuse the comment at all in my opinion...but having been on the receiving end of racist remarks i would contend that there is a real difference between an ignorant racist and a malicious one

i think i should just add a bit of context here ... i found the website a few weeks ago after following a link from a poem of the day which i had enjoyed ... i found the comment offensive and emailed the website owner to tell him this ... and i was entirely polite and explained that i had enjoyed his work but had found the phrase "nig-nog" unnacceptable ... the writer in question did not reply to my email ...

No offence Fish - but do you think that raking up old passe expressions of rhyming slang and re-energising them with renewed racial connotations might be offensive to the very people whom you are presumably feeling offended for?

are you suggesting the original term had no racial connotations then mykle?

*temporarily speechless*

well that was unexpected mykle...if you want to know whether the word nignog needs re-energising as a racist insult try putting it into a search engine and seeing what sort of sites you find

I did not think the original statement offensive. But is it offensive to ask whether it is offensive?

Andrew's jokes could just as well be applied to Irish, Poles, Swedes, Catholics,Protestants, Jews, Chinese, Indians,Canadians (US), Norwegians (Swedish), Aborigines (Aussies), New Zealanders (Aussies), Russians (Finns), Finns (Russians) ......... and have been, I guess. Do you think they date from Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon? I bet some of the fundamentals do. I thought the 'shoeites' in monty python's Life of summed the whole thing up forever.

sory - it was me!

It was ryhming slang for a term which was later used in a racist manner Stormy - but I can see no point in recounting it's origins since I imagine that - like Robertson's jam icons - it has been largely forgotten. It is not words that are inherently offensive it's the way in which the are used. I had a fine collection of Robertsons badges before they were forced to choose a new icon - but they were never anything other than attractive badges to me!

no, I would be pleased to hear its origins since I do not believe it was rhyming slang for any term let alone one that was later used for racist slurs. Please inform me. I do not think it is forgotten at all anymore than golliwogs - why did you call them 'Robertson's Jam icons' - have been forgotten?

Well stormy there it is - ryhming slang for WOG which started life as Western Oriental Gentleman but was later associated with golliwog and became a term of abuse. I wonder if they are woth a lot now-a-days - the golliwog badges?

WOG could be construed as an abbrieviation for western oriental gentlemen, if such a saying ever existed, but not as rhyming slang. the term 'western oriental gentleman' is an oxymoron in the first place ans is used, largely I find, for those that use the word wog to try and justify themselves. I think you will find that your definition of the word comes from some comedians performance. Wog originally defined someone from arabia, or the middle east, and it is still extensively used in Australia. can someone explain Australian to me so that i may use Wog in my everyday speech without thinking it refers to a Western Oriental Gentleman or rhyming slang for nig nog?

Maybe Robert has the best explanation of why a racial slur about my whiteness wouldn't trouble me. For me, skin colour is absolutely unimportant, not something I think about. Me being white is nothing to do with me - me wearing glasses is not who I am, but it is certainly a part of what people perceive when they see me. But I would probably feel differently if I was in a position where my colour placed me in a position where I would face discrimination and prejudice. I've never felt that, even when I've been in situations where I have been a minority.

One easy answer - if the person concerned took it down after the racial connotations were pointed out, then it was never meant in that way. To someone who grew up in the Seventies, there is no suggestion whatsoever that "nig-nog" is a racial slur. Maybe if you grew up much, much later, the word had become such an offensive one that it passed out of use entirely and thus was unclear. For everyone who complains about PC taking over the world, perhaps they ought to have a think back to the seventies, where you could hear "Paki", "coon" "Spade" "Poofter" "Fairy" on television and consider how many morons took those terms out of their front room and into the school playground and workplace. It is possible to be over-cautious - I've worked with social workers who won't use "Black coffee" - it's "Coffee without milk". The word "black" is a word for a colour - it can be used in other contexts than race. But I don't see that "nig-nog" can be acceptable in any circumstance whatsoever. As to Karl's point - is it racist to say that of the statistics gathered, muggings are more likely to be carried out by a black person ? In my opinion, not, but care needs to be taken not to fall into a false syllogism. All Men are Mortal. Caius is a Man. Therefore Caius is Mortal. (True, good logic). All Men are Mortal. Caius is Mortal. Therefore Caius is a Man. (Uses similar construction, but is not good logic - Caius could be a horse, or a dog). Equally, muggings are more likely to be carried out by a black person could be misconstrued as black people are more likely to carry out a mugging than white people. Even if ALL muggings were carried out by black people - this does not translate to ALL black people are muggers.

Having worked South-Central Los Angeles for over six months, I would on a regular basis be called a nigger by black people, even though I'm white. On a more regular basis, they would call each other niggers. In the black areas of America, it's not an offensive term - unless stated in an offensive manner. Judging by the comments above, all sensible people here treat statistics for what they are. Simply stats, with no offence intended. So let me ask another question. Is it an offensive statement that most white-collar crime is carried out by white people? Is anybody offended by this? My point, of course, is that if one set of statistics offends, then so must all other similar stats, otherwise the word "bigot" springs to mind.

I'm hardly ever offended by anything. I have as many predudices as the next person though I doubt they are very obvious. I would just like to make one point, bizzarre as it may sound I didn't know what a nig-nog was, and had to wait until several other people had replied to Fish so as to understand the point of her question. For some reason that particular slang word is not one I've come across before. You never know maybe mr/ms ABC website hadn't heard of it either (in the right context anyway) So...does our ignorance (in this way) make using the term more or less acceptable? *sits and waits *

When I read fish's first post, I had no idea what was going on. I re-read it three times before noticing "nig-nog." Never heard the term in my life. Presented to mein context but without an explanation, I guessed it meant "a bumbler," someone would can't tell their left from their right, that kind of thing. That's how it reads in the paragraph. On the other hand, since I'd never hear the term before, I probably don't count. Assuming it is a kind of racial epithet, then I would say it is in bad taste. Whether it is racist or not, I can't really say. As others have pointed out, it might have been unintentional.

hey....great minds

I didn't realise which part was supposed to be offensive either, until I got a bit further into the discussion. Does ignorance offend?

Ignorance should not offend. Children often say things which would be considered quite rude for an adult. The difference is that we know better. You can't be offended by anything a young child says because they have a lot to learn and manners are only part of it. Children are ignorant of the fact that what they say may offend. Once it's explained to them, they will generally make more effort not to offend than adults.

I should add that "acting" ignorantly definitely offends, but should not be confused with being ignorant. The two are very different.

hmmm several more points to think about ... spider if you find the original question offensive then it is ... karl's points about stats ... i don't find either of them offensive ... the language is fairly neutral ... i think i would think twice if the first one said ... "most muggings are created by nig-nogs ... or wogs ... or niggers" as for points of ignorance ... i think if someone (such as JT or Ari) had never heard of the term then they are unlikely to use it in the first place ... i think it's more likely in the case of this writer that he is fully aware of the meaning of the term but probably sees nothing wrong in using it at as a description of someone who is incompetent in some way ... i suppose it is possible that the writer hasn't read the mail i sent him ... but i think it more likely that he has and has dismissed it as some crackpot leftie nonsense ... but even in that case a reply would have been polite ...

On from what Karl says about niggers being an inoffensive term - Paddy is not offensive in ireland and is a common nickname for Padraics and Patricks, but calling an irishman paddy if you're not irish is offensive. I think a lot about racism being half white (father) and half Black South African (mother). I think political correctness has gone too far. Is it offensive to call a red head a Ginger (pronounced ginger to rhyme with ringer) which I hear used all the time? Its seems to be acceptable to call Jamie Oliver a Mockney Twat, and the amount of terms I hear slung around like "Northen B*****d, Geordie B*****d and scouse bint" and no-one seems to get outraged. When I was working in a bar in Swiss Cottage (THE Swiss cottage in fact) I asked a young man of African origin for some ID, when he failed to produce any and I refused to serve him, he started shouting that it was all "because I'm black" (which seems faintly ridiculous as I'm not exactly white myself). People like that using "rascism" as an excuse for everything that doesnt go their way makes me very angry, and the young man and his friends were barred from the pub for good. I think tackling real rascism of hatred and violence is good but there are other forms of PC I just can't understand. For example, a public sector organisation such as the MET is recruiting. This particular district has vacancies for new officers. Because the MET has to make up a certain percentage of ethnic minorities they may employ one applicant over another because they are from an ethnic minority, even though the caucasian may be better qualified, have better experience. Where is the sense in that?? It is actually racism against the ethnic majority. Finally - one of my favourite programs was and still is Dad's Army. Clive Dunne of course played the eccentric Jones who fought in the Sudan. When recounting tales of the war he always referred to the natives as "Fuzzy-Wuzzy's. Myself, my brothers and my father were all enjoying an episode once and when my mother came into the room Jones happened to use the term. My mother was outraged and wanted to turn it off, but my father pointed out that back in those days thats the language "Good people used" as they didn't consider it derogatory. She wanted to ruin children's (who didn't really think of the term until she highlighted it) enjoyment of a family show, because of her own beliefs. Still watch Dad's army these days. Still laugh at Clive Dunne

I think the term 'nig-nog' appears to have been used in ignorance. that's what happens, people hear other people using words and use them in a similar context, but not with exactly the same meaning. that's how 'twat' , which 20 years ago was c***, is now more like the (different), inoffensive word 'Twit'. 'nig-nog' and 'sambo' were used regularly on TV on 'love thy neighbour' in the 70's . the programme's message was actually that such terms were pointless, and the 'black' and 'white' characters actually grew to respect each other. But if certain words offend reasonably tolerant people, the reason does not matter - it is surely common politeness not to use them in front of them? I would like to stop radio 4 using the words '@!#$' and 'shag' as they offend me to some extent in the context of what I expect from R4 (I expect I am an old fogey).

s*h*i*t

All I have to say 1leg, is 'I agree' Totally I try and treat everyone as if they are perfect and treat all their bad actions as simple mistakes. Its rare that this way of thinking isnt good. Presume the best and forget the worst.

'Maybe if you grew up much, much later, the word had become such an offensive one that it passed out of use entirely and thus was unclear.' I thought they only stopped being used when they stopped being offensive! I dont think it was racist as it wasnt used in a rascist manner but you were right to complain in case someone was upset by it.

Aussie here. Wog is used to describe people with Greek origins. Some use it to refer to each other, so it's not necessarily an insult (although I wouldn't be comfortable using it). Story One -- When my mum visited relatives in UK 10 years after emigrating to Australia, all the family turned up at the airport to surprise her. Shocked, she exclaimed, "You silly bastards!". They gasped. In Australia, 'bastard' can be used as a term of endearment. Story Two -- When my stepmum was growing up in Sydney in the 50s, her parents always used to refer to the fruit shop owner (who was Italian) as 'Dago'. My stepmum, in her youthful innocence, thought it was his name and so would call him 'Mr Dago' when she visited the shop. He never seemed offended by this. (Maybe because of the 'Mr')

Jude: Just on your point about the MET's recruitment policy. Yes, on the surface it looks racist (against the 'majority') but in actual fact the MET is striving for a police force that reflects the community. Surely that's a positive thing? If there were more 'black', 'Asian' etc police officers, then that will show young people who are thinking of joining the force that they're not going to be discriminated against because of their race.