'W' was for 'wily' - and I understood it to be 'oriental' (western does not make sense butted to oriental) Greek? - It may have been adapted by our antipodean brothers, just as it was here, depending on the proportions of 'new immigrants'
All nationalities have a standard foreign object of ridicule. For the English it's the Irish, for Americans it's Poles, for the Welsh it's the English and Aussies also pick on the English. It isn't necessarily meant to offend, sometimes it's just national pride applied in jocular form. I have always liked the Irish (their traditional music is stunningly beautiful) but I also laugh like hell at the jokes told at their expense. It doesn't mean the jokes are offensive just because they take the piss out of national traits. They can sometimes be very affectionate. What is really offensive is starvation and poverty, disease and greed, cruelty and violence. There is never a situation where these things are anything less than offensive.
What about retrospectively editing books or films?
THe term 'Nigra' simply meant black. In the 'Dam Busters' the pilot had a dog named 'nigger' (pardon) just because its black - that's all. We also had shoe polish 'Nigger Brown' (dark brown) - not sure about that one .
You wouldn't put that word in now, but when they re-run it on TV, should they bleep or change it? In books, should they go through and change currently offensive terms, or put an intro in to explain them?
(faithless, did you mean 'Daily Mail' if so, I understand)
I think that existing documents shouldn't be re-edited, because they stand as a pointer to how society was/is.
In Australia, there's a brand of cheese called Coon, and a man is trying to get the name changed.
The same man is trying to get the name of a sports stand in Toowoomba, Queensland, changed. It's called the Nigger Brown Stand. The name it's named after wasn't aboriginal. I don't know how the 'nigger' term became applied to him.
I don't think you should retrospectively change either.
But I have to admit sympathy for the man who wants to stop confronting people with the term 'coon' and 'nigger' when they go to a supermarket or football. Cheese and fotball stands don't have much intrinsic value, and the names should be changed. However, the football club's record books should not be changed. Am I consistent ?
re: nigger. I would disagree because the word negro (from which nigger is derived) means black in its original language. Nigger was the English adaption of the word used to describe slaves and has only ever been used as a term of contempt when describing someone.
re: wog. I still think the various claims that this is an acronym are that of urban myth. But whatever the origin it was certainly used to describe foreigners in a contemptuous way and, because of the gollywog eventually came to be an insult directed at blacks. and yes Miles, I have since found out that the aussies do indeed refer to Greeks that way. thanks. Definition of gollywog is that it is a combination of golly (god) and pollywog (tadpole) and was indeed devoid of any racist connotations when first coined. Times change however.
re: nig-nog. This has nothing to do with the term wog. There are people who claim that nig-nog simply means silly-person and that it is a northern english term. I find this hard to believe because I'm sure it would be in a dictionary if it was. It is however commonly accepted to be an insult to black people and those that use the term to mean 'silly', as did the chap who has it on his website, must surely be aware of this?
In march 2001 a 55yr old teacher called a black kid a nig-nog. He used the silly-person definition for his defence but was still sacked for racist behaviour. An Irish bus driver said the same to a black bloke on his bus and was also sacked.
I have not been able to find an exact history or definition of the term but the most plausible one I came across was that it derives from the Dutch word 'niknok' which means nigger and found its way to england via the Boers and South Africa.
On that basis I stand by my original response and say, yes, it is a racist remark regardless of whether you have heard the term or not and regardless if you thought it meant silly-person.
I think getting back what you give out only works if the people you're giving out to have no preconceptions, and that just never, ever is. I say this because I was in Australia some years ago and I was very very tanned - had travelled around south east asia. I alos and had short thick black curly hair and looked a bit mediterranean/latin/greek/whatever. I started working in this medical agency for about three months and everyone seemed civil enough but one day I was chatting at the photocoopier as you do, with someone, and they discovered I was from England, and that I was mainly anglo-saxon with a bit of celt thrown in.
From that day everyone's atttitude towards me really changed. I hadn't actually noticed anyone being out and out rude but people would actively engage me in conversation and would want to get to know me, and invite me places etc etc., where before they were a bit more insular, polite but not that open.
It seemed most people I was working with thought I was a 'WOG or a WOP' (Greek/Italian). Because I looked dark and swarthy - black hair/brown skin combination. Anyway this guy actually said "God Sorry I thought you were a WOG." Can you imagine it. "He then explained what WOG meant, that it didn't mean the same thing as in England, rude slang doesn't travel well. I was like ye.. and"
I actually found it upsetting because suddenly I was allowed IN and overnight people wanted to get to know me and I became flavour of the month. They were actually in awe of my fucking sun tan!!!
Nothing about ME had changed it was all to do with their attitude and perception. Anyway the point I'm elongating is that crude derogatory language creates prejudiced minds - language is cultural and shapes thoughts.
jude aka hovis
Miles,
at the end of the day, when I want an officer round my house investigating a crime of which I have been a victim, or protecting us against a future crime, I want the most intelligent, best educated, most experienced and well-suited (personality wise) person we can afford.I don't care if they're Indian, black or green so long as they are the best we can get. and no, employing a lesser candidate in order to show others that the met isn't rascist is not acceptable. Its lowering standards for the sake of political correctness.
I've been following this thread with mild amusement as I can't believe people can be so incensed by a term they obviously haven't bothered to research.
ref: Cassells Dictionary of Slang.
nig-nog (1950s-1960s) (orig. railways)
1. a novice, an unskilled person.
2. a fool, a simpleton [The Times, 30th Nov.1967 claims the term was used long before coloured immigrants appeared]
Also any non-white, whether Black, Asian or Oriental
It also lists: 'nigmenog' (17c-18c)a fool, an idiot.
I suggest that the offender probably meant to use it in the sense described above as an unskilled person.
oh we'll let him off then shall we? ... he is obviously FAR better informed than any of us ... how silly we are ... in fact let's all call ourselves nig nogs from now on ... in that nice gentle old fashioned sense that is not racist at all ...
*skips off happily wearing "i am a Nig Nog" t shirt*
Nevertheless, it was used against black people in the 60's and 70's. Whatever the dictionary says, it has been a term of racial abuse - and I still hear it used to today in that way.
I agree with you that the person used it innocently, and maybe the use will revert to your definition as people forget and oldsters like myself die off!
The word 'gay' was a perfectly good word for centuries before it was hijacked recently (I don't mind - living language and all that - it's just that I'm still searching for substitutes which convey the same meaning) (Oh, and no, its not a term of abuse I agree, just trying to exemplify transition words that get confused between older and younger generations 'caught' in their change)
*hands e-griff an "i am a Nig Nog" baseball cap*
wear it backwards dear ... it will make you look even sillier ...
*gets on phone to order special big "I am a Nig Nog badges for everyone*
It is odd how I remember John Barnes being the only unskilled or foolish England footballer in the team during the late eighties, according to the crowd, who were also years ahead of their time in realising the benefits of the potassium in bananas, thus helpfully throwing them at him.
I think some benefit of the doubt goes to the mystery website person, since at least some of the contributors to this thread had no idea it was offensive at all, and others feel that it has other meanings - I suspect that anyone using Mississippi's dictionary to defend themselves against criminal charges of inciting racial hatred would not do so well; and the definition actually shows that the word was intended to be derogatory from the off.
But if it were me, and someone pointed out the other connotation of it, I would stop using it. It's not as though the English language is short of terms for novice or fool which don't raise similar spectres.
As to Karl's stats - I don't find either of them racist, but I've seen the earlier one used many a time by people who seek to imply that therefore all black people have inherent criminal tendencies. I've never seen anyone try to do that with the white-collar crime.
andrew do you want one of these badges then or what?
there hasn't been such a good merchandising opportunity since the Eddie Gibbons Fan Club ... those G-strings sold like hot cakes ...
when we were little and we did something daft like walking into a door dad would call us silly nig nog and give us a cuddle. when we did something that made mum cross she'd call us blithering bloody idiot (etc) and clout us one
Fuzzy Wuzzy was a bear
Fuzzy Wuzzy had no hair
So he wasn't fuzzy
Was he?
(wuzzy)
Is this racist? (Seee Jude's earlier mailing)
At Spurs we have a chant which is a drum roll the we all shout YIDS and when new players come on for the first time we shout YIDDO! YIDDO!
Is that offensive? We use it as a form of endearment..Spurs are meant to be a jewish club..
Tottenham Boys, Tottenham Boys
Can't eat pork pies or saveloys!
No fish, did not find it offensive.. but food for thought.
People take offense at the silliest of words.. it has happened
on this forum (and not necessarily related to racism either)..
I suggest 'context' is all important.. and IMO the context in
the original text was neutral.. it seems to be the opinion of most people here too.. who have also shown that 'offensive' words are not offensive in some contexts.
I always give the benefit of the doubt.. why jump to offense when none may have been intended.. just seems a silly to let other people upset you so easily. Usually racists are not so suttle.
I think we will truly have conquered racism when there are as many 'offensive' terms for white people as there are for all other races.
Andrew's correct in stating that stats can be used to further the cause of any argument by implying that the rules of cause & effect can be reversed. They can't.
If there's a garbage strike, causing thousands of rats to run all over London, spreading disease wherever they go, it would be futile to blame the rats. We must attack the cause instead of blaming the effect.
However, in this case, we don't have a metaphorical garbage strike - at least not one that effects just the black community. So we have to ask ourselves why are more street crimes committed by gentlemen of colour, and why are more white-collar crimes committed by vanillas, gringos, honkies, white meat, blue-eyed devils, round eyes and crackers?
Is the term "white trash" offensive? I've never heard anyone remark that someone is "black trash", but if they did I'd say that would be both offensive and ignorant.
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